2 teams have Evans as top WR

[moklerman]

how is that not a manziel factor? There's no touchdown if Manziel doesn't dodge the sack and give Evans more time to get open....

That's true, but I think Evans' catch in traffic was more impressive than Manziel's reverse rollout.

 

[jjab360]

Truth be told, I profoundly oppose Evans at #13 because I believe we HAVE to take the best DB at that position. I prefer a safety, but will be more than happy with Dennard/Gilbert.

I couldn't possibly disagree more with assigning a position to a draft pick.

 

[jjab360]

how is that not a manziel factor? There's no touchdown if Manziel doesn't dodge the sack and give Evans more time to get open....

The "Manziel factor" made an idiotic throw into quintuple coverage and Evans just happened to be the one big enough and strong enough to come down with it. Evans bailed him out big time on that one.

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

I couldn't possibly disagree more with assigning a position to a draft pick.

It's not assigning a draft pick to a position. I look at it as maximizing your utility with your options provided. There is a dropoff after Pryor and Dix at FS, and FS is a greater team need than WR, so I think it would be wise to grab the best here since we signed no FA. I'm not the only one who believes this.

 

[jrry32]

Okay, well showing me a couple plays from one game isn't going to change my opinion though.

It was 1 game in which you saw 7 plays against one of the best defenses college football has to offer...and 5 of the 7 were Evans winning down the field without Manziel leaving the pocket.

Say what you will but I've watched the film. More than just the Alabama game and what you're saying isn't true from what I've seen. So I'd love to hear more from your perspective. What games and what plays make up this significant portion of his deep stats that came from busted plays?

Maybe we could put a percentage on the term "a lot."

Generally, a lot to me would mean a significant portion of the sample size.

how is that not a manziel factor? There's no touchdown if Manziel doesn't dodge the sack and give Evans more time to get open....

I've seen Blake Bortles dodge sacks just like that. Same with Bridgewater. What can't be denied is that Manziel lobbed a ball up into a sea of Arkansas defenders and Evans bailed him out of what easily could have been an interception.

The man that made the great play there was Mike Evans.

 

[jrry32]

It's not assigning a draft pick to a position. I look at it as maximizing your utility with your options provided. There is a dropoff after Pryor and Dix at FS, and FS is a greater team need than WR, so I think it would be wise to grab the best here since we signed no FA. I'm not the only one who believes this.

There really isn't imo. Especially when you consider that CB converts often do quite well at safety. And there are also plenty of those in this draft.

Drafting purely for need is always a mistake in my book.

 

[jjab360]

It's not assigning a draft pick to a position. I look at it as maximizing your utility with your options provided. There is a dropoff after Pryor and Dix at FS, and FS is a greater team need than WR, so I think it would be wise to grab the best here since we signed no FA. I'm not the only one who believes this.

You said you feel like we HAVE to grab a DB at 13. Doesn't really matter what the rationale is, that's assigning a position to a draft pick.

I don't agree with that because it's essentially drafting for need and ignoring possible better players. You don't know who's going to fall to that pick or what trade down or trade up offers you might receive. Limiting yourself to a position is just not how good teams draft.

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

I support BPA that fits need. My boy @jrry32 has my back-- he loves elaborating on this.

Get'em @jrry32

 

[jrry32]

I support BPA that fits need. My boy @jrry32 has my back-- he loves elaborating on this.

Get'em @jrry32

I think you've just about said it. Drafting for the BVA is what I call it. Best value available. Considers need and talent as well as positional value and a few other factors.

 

[iced]

The man that made the great play there was Mike Evans.

Never said it wasn't - but you can't deny that the elusiveness wasn't a factor. That play made have been a nice one by evans - but that just backs up further what people have been saying: a lot of evan's "big plays" have been with busted plays and a scrambling qb getting extra time.

You can't preach how we have to account for Watkins screen game then ignore that factor with Evans

 

[moklerman]

Never said it wasn't - but you can't deny that the elusiveness wasn't a factor. That play made have been a nice one by evans - but that just backs up further what people have been saying: a lot of evan's "big plays" have been with busted plays and a scrambling qb getting extra time.

That's not the same thing at all. What's been mentioned before has been in relation to Evans breaking free while downfield and the defensive backfield getting out of sync because of the scrambling and timing of Manziel running around. This play is nothing like that. It's a big receiver making a tough catch in heavy traffic. Manziel deserves credit for making a guy miss and avoiding a sack but that defender really over-committed and took himself out of the play so Manziel wound up having a ton of time. Many QB's are capable of that. Not as many WR's make that catch.

 

[jrry32]

Never said it wasn't - but you can't deny that the elusiveness wasn't a factor. That play made have been a nice one by evans - but that just backs up further what people have been saying: a lot of evan's "big plays" have been with busted plays and a scrambling qb getting extra time.

You can't preach how we have to account for Watkins screen game then ignore that factor with Evans

Don't start with "a lot" unless you're going to come in here with a realistic figure or have something to back it up with. I just got done with this conversation.

You assume that this isn't a double-edged sword. You think Manziel never cost Evans by trying to get greedy with his elusiveness? You think Evans never had to make overly difficult plays because Manziel made some terrible decisions?

No. That play is not the Johnny Football Factor. The Johnny Football Factor resulted in a terrible throw into the middle of a bunch of Arkansas defenders and forced his WR to fly in and make the play. That's the Mike Evans factor.

No one is about to argue right now that this is the "Matt Stafford Factor":

Mike Evans bailed Manziel out on that play just like Calvin did here. If anything, it only speaks more highly of Evans that he could turn such a horrifically bad throw and decision into a TD.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Why? For having a mind and opinion of their own and not falling for the media hype? There are a ton of things that Evans does better than Watkins, so I could easily see a team that's looking for that type of skillset having him higher on their draft boards.

Btw, it's at least 2 teams, I bet there's a ton more out there that think the same thing.

Is there really a ton Of things that Evans does better? Wouldn't that put Evans clearly in the front on every teams draft board?

There is maybe three things Evans does better. Better jump ball, More physical, wider catch radius. Sure some teams could value that more than Watkins broader skillset, but I don't think a ton more teams would, because Evans also has a few glaring limitations.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Is there really a ton Of things that Evans does better? Wouldn't that put Evans clearly in the front on every teams draft board?

There is maybe three things Evans does better. Better jump ball, More physical, wider catch radius. Sure some teams could value that more than Watkins broader skillset, but I don't think a ton more teams would, because Evans also has a few glaring limitations.

How do we know he's not? Again, no one has access to all 32 teams uncompleted draft boards. Or probably ever will.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Don't start with "a lot" unless you're going to come in here with a realistic figure or have something to back it up with. I just got done with this conversation.

You assume that this isn't a double-edged sword. You think Manziel never cost Evans by trying to get greedy with his elusiveness? You think Evans never had to make overly difficult plays because Manziel made some terrible decisions?

No. That play is not the Johnny Football Factor. The Johnny Football Factor resulted in a terrible throw into the middle of a bunch of Arkansas defenders and forced his WR to fly in and make the play. That's the Mike Evans factor.

No one is about to argue right now that this is the "Matt Stafford Factor":

Mike Evans bailed Manziel out on that play just like Calvin did here. If anything, it only speaks more highly of Evans that he could turn such a horrifically bad throw and decision into a TD.

Yep. Calvin Johnson has been doing just that for Stafford for years now.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Never said it wasn't - but you can't deny that the elusiveness wasn't a factor. That play made have been a nice one by evans - but that just backs up further what people have been saying: a lot of evan's "big plays" have been with busted plays and a scrambling qb getting extra time.

You can't preach how we have to account for Watkins screen game then ignore that factor with Evans

Much of the issue comes with what Greg Cossell explains about Manziel. I recall one podcast where he stated that Manziel misses reads and open players early to make many of those so-called busted plays. He wouldn't have to scramble and do a lot of the things he does it he simple knew where to go with the ball when his back foot hits. The pass shown earlier in this thread is a classic example.

Quite frankly, I believe he's more comfortable throwing outside of the pocket ala Russell Wilson because of his height limitations.

 

[Alan]

RamsOfCastamere looking at availability:
It's not assigning a draft pick to a position. I look at it as maximizing your utility with your options provided. There is a dropoff after Pryor and Dix at FS, and FS is a greater team need than WR, so I think it would be wise to grab the best here since we signed no FA. I'm not the only one who believes this.

Count me in as one of the few, the proud the brave, early FS drafters.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I support BPA that fits need. My boy @jrry32 has my back-- he loves elaborating on this.

Get'em @jrry32

I prefer BPA within reason theory. Need plays a role, but I'd hate the team to pass up on a blue chip talent trying to fill a need with the BPA at that need position OVER the overall BPA at a position that may not be an immediate need but could be one in the near future. Needs can change almost every year (See the CB positon). And banking on rookies to do so seems foolish anyway to me. Might fill the position, but the need still might exist.

BTW, count me as one that doesn't see the drop off at Safety after Pryor and Dix. Especially Dix who might be one of the most overrated players in this draft class, IMO. Perhaps, one of the next big named Alabama secondary players that does little on the next level.

 

[iced]

Don't start with "a lot" unless you're going to come in here with a realistic figure or have something to back it up with. I just got done with this conversation.

You assume that this isn't a double-edged sword.

Excuse me? Don't put words in my mouth - You're the one that said "It's not the Manziel factor - it's the Evan's factor."

Plays like these ain't the Johnny Football factor...they're the Mike Evans factor:

Can't have it both ways dude. That pass doesn't get thrown nor does Evans get the TD "without the Manziel factor"


Btw why the comparisons to calvin? outside of measurables, they're not even remotely close to being the same type of player or prospect coming out. Calvin Was Clear cut the best receiver in his draft class. Not to mention Calvin was Faster and could separate better than evans, and that's not including his amazing hands and way he attacks the ball (not saying evans doesn't, but don't compare him to calvin who's in a class of his own)

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

How do we know he's not? Again, no one has access to all 32 teams uncompleted draft boards. Or probably ever will.

Exactly why I said a TON, quoting Jjab. Because he doesn't know anymore about draft boards than you or I. Done picking Nits?