2 teams have Evans as top WR

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Alan

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iced trying to justify:
Saying stuff.
I'm not taking sides here iced. I wasn't paying any attention to your conversation just like I almost never pay any attention to long conversations. Long conversations almost always mean someone is trying to "convince" someone else that they are right by talking louder. My comments are directed soley to how you are having the conversation. If you think someone isn't making any sense why are you continuing to talk to them about it? Gonna win them over with superior logic? At what point do you just agree to disagree and go on to the next battle?

Do what you want iced. I'm just another poster but I can tell you with 100% certainty that telling someone he's just BSing you is not the way to talk to someone you want to have future conversations with. I like to think we're better than that here at the ROD.
 
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jrry32

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i had already said my peace on calvin earlier


Notice how this goes unquoted right? :rolleyes: I think comparing Evans to Calvin is ridiculous - Calvin is in a league of his own and was a MUCH better prospect coming out. They only thing they have in comparison height and weight, thats it. Any other comparison to him is ridiculous and I think it's bogus.

And yea, if I see somethin' that i heavily disagree with i'll stop reading. It's hard to take out of context

You've found the strawman.

Jrry32's Argument: That play wasn't the Johnny Football Factor, Mike Evans is the one that made the amazing play. Manziel threw the ball up into heavy coverage and Evans bailed him out. Here's a play where Stafford throws a bomb into heavy coverage and Calvin goes up over 3 defenders to bail him out. Would you call that the Stafford factor?

Summary of Jrry32's Argument: Comparing two like plays and explaining why it's not an accurate statement to give a guy like Manziel or Stafford credit when the WR is the one that made the spectacular play.

Iced's Rebuttal: You can't compare Calvin Johnson to Mike Evans. He was faster, more athletic, etc. as a prospect. Mike Evans isn't even in his wheelhouse.

Summary of Iced's Rebuttal: Comparing Calvin Johnson to Mike Evans as a prospect.

That's as clear cut of a strawman argument as you can get. I argued A, you argued against B and acted like it disproved A. Never did I compare Mike Evans to Calvin Johnson as a player. Never did I compare them as prospects. I compared two players, each where the WR bailed out the QB, to show that Stafford doesn't get the credit on a play like that but somehow Johnny Football should?

You never debated that point. You invented a fictitious disagreement and debated that. In fact, all you've done is avoid that specific point. If you don't want to address it, fine. But don't cry foul when I call a strawman a strawman.

And don't expect me to address an argument I never attempt to make.(the Calvin Johnson-Mike Evans prospect comparison)
 

jrry32

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Lol right. After your strawman comment and the unwillingness to admit that Manziel was a factor in that play was enough for me. wasn't worth to read anything more

Manziel having a role in a play...and a play being the "Johnny Football Factor" are two different things. I already gave Manziel credit for spinning away from the pressure and lofting the ball up. But there are a number of QBs...including Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles that have the ability to do the exact same thing. What Manziel did on that play was not special. His throw was an inaccurate duck that was coming down in a sea of Arkansas defenders.

The player that MADE the play happen. The player that made the OUTSTANDING PLAY was Mike Evans. That is why it's the "Mike Evans factor". He bailed Manziel out of a pretty terrible decision and throw.

Which is why I compared the Calvin Johnson play to it. People aren't nearly as wacko when it comes to Stafford and Calvin. Despite Stafford having to throw the ball on that play, they still will call that play what it is...the "Calvin Johnson factor" because Calvin made the play. Nobody would dare call that the "Stafford Factor".
 

iced

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Manziel having a role in a play...and a play being the "Johnny Football Factor" are two different things. I already gave Manziel credit for spinning away from the pressure and lofting the ball up. But there are a number of QBs...including Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles that have the ability to do the exact same thing. What Manziel did on that play was not special. His throw was an inaccurate duck that was coming down in a sea of Arkansas defenders.

The player that MADE the play happen. The player that made the OUTSTANDING PLAY was Mike Evans. That is why it's the "Mike Evans factor". He bailed Manziel out of a pretty terrible decision and throw.

Which is why I compared the Calvin Johnson play to it. People aren't nearly as wacko when it comes to Stafford and Calvin. Despite Stafford having to throw the ball on that play, they still will call that play what it is...the "Calvin Johnson factor" because Calvin made the play. Nobody would dare call that the "Stafford Factor".

Nobody would dare compare Evans to Calvin Johnson either, that's just ridiculous. That's like comparing a quarterback to Peyton Manning or a Running back to Adrian Peterson...

There are plenty of "big wide receivers" that bail out their quarterback - my point is there is only one that can do it like Calvin Johnson, whom had a ton more accolades coming out and as a prospect than Evans ever did.

Its a terrible comparison - Evans was never known for his hands like Calvin, speed, ability to separate, get deep, high point like him, etc. To insinuate is ridiculous because if it were even remotely accurate, he'd be the clear cut #1 in this draft.. But no, he doesn't have the hands like him, and the ability to separate is not even remotely close to calvin
 

Memphis Ram

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Nobody would dare compare Evans to Calvin Johnson either, that's just ridiculous. That's like comparing a quarterback to Peyton Manning or a Running back to Adrian Peterson...

There are plenty of "big wide receivers" that bail out their quarterback - my point is there is only one that can do it like Calvin Johnson, whom had a ton more accolades coming out and as a prospect than Evans ever did.

Its a terrible comparison - Evans was never known for his hands like Calvin, speed, ability to separate, get deep, high point like him, etc. To insinuate is ridiculous because if it were even remotely accurate, he'd be the clear cut #1 in this draft.. But no, he doesn't have the hands like him, and the ability to separate is not even remotely close to calvin

iced, you've totally missed the point.
 

iced

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iced, you've totally missed the point.

I think I get it - I think you guys are missing mine.

You can't point to a HoF receiver who's in a class of his own just because of they have similar height and act like it's the same thing as some collegiate athlete - unless you're saying Evans is the type that can out jump triple coverage like Calvin has done on a couple of occasions, why make the comparison? are you saying that Evans is on the same level, or can do the same things?

If not, then don't use Calvin. That's a joke
 

iced

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You've found the strawman.

Jrry32's Argument: That play wasn't the Johnny Football Factor, Mike Evans is the one that made the amazing play. Manziel threw the ball up into heavy coverage and Evans bailed him out. Here's a play where Stafford throws a bomb into heavy coverage and Calvin goes up over 3 defenders to bail him out. Would you call that the Stafford factor?

Summary of Jrry32's Argument: Comparing two like plays and explaining why it's not an accurate statement to give a guy like Manziel or Stafford credit when the WR is the one that made the spectacular play.

Iced's Rebuttal: You can't compare Calvin Johnson to Mike Evans. He was faster, more athletic, etc. as a prospect. Mike Evans isn't even in his wheelhouse.

Summary of Iced's Rebuttal: Comparing Calvin Johnson to Mike Evans as a prospect.

Once again, choosing to overlook how Evans does not separate and needs more time to get open. :rolleyes:

And no - I'm not going to go through every game and mark down how many times he made a big play off of a busted play. I've seen enough to see it leave a lasting impression - especially when you think about how many people are saying manziel won't make it because of the way he plays the QB position. Acting like that doesn't have an effect on Evans is nonsense
 

Memphis Ram

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I think I get it - I think you guys are missing mine.

You can't point to a HoF receiver who's in a class of his own just because of they have similar height and act like it's the same thing as some collegiate athlete - unless you're saying Evans is the type that can out jump triple coverage like Calvin has done on a couple of occasions, why make the comparison? are you saying that Evans is on the same level, or can do the same things?

If not, then don't use Calvin. That's a joke

Focus on the bold part and you've got it.
 

iced

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Focus on the bold part and you've got it.

And that's my problem - there are plenty of receivers who can "out jump" (like quick?)...why use Calvin, who's in a class of his own? No one else can do it like him - so using him as a comparison is a joke
 

Memphis Ram

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And that's my problem - there are plenty of receivers who can "out jump" (like quick?)...why use Calvin, who's in a class of his own? No one else can do it like him - so using him as a comparison is a joke

The key is the play. Not the player of which you've focused upon. That said, Evans size, long arms, and hops, might very well make him the closest thing to Johnson in regards to that type of play.
 

jrry32

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iced, you've totally missed the point.

Yep. At first, I thought he was making a strawman on purpose. Now it seems that the point is just being missed. I think I'm too close to it to be able to explain it in another fashion so that it's more easily relatable. If anyone else wants to give it a go, I'd appreciate it.
 

iced

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The key is the play. Not the player of which you've focused upon. That said, Evans size, long arms, and hops, might very well make him the closest thing to Johnson in regards to that type of play.

-sigh- this is clearly a lost cause. If that's the argument for Evans than I don't understand what the point is of Quick and Cook - especially since you guys love to point out "he's not really a Tight end but more a converted Wide receiver"
 

Memphis Ram

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-sigh- this is clearly a lost cause. If that's the argument for Evans than I don't understand what the point is of Quick and Cook - especially since you guys love to point out "he's not really a Tight end but more a converted Wide receiver"

C'mon iced. There's no limitations to bigger targets on teams. (Especially teams that plan to run the ball quite a bit).

The Bears have Brandon Marshall, Alshon Jeffrey, and TE Martellus Bennett.
Arizona has Larry Fitzgerald, Michael Floyd, and TEs Rob Housler.
Cincinnati has A.J Green, Mohommad Sanu, TEs Jermaine Gresham & Tyler Eifert.
New Orleans has Robert Meachem, Marques Colston, and TE Jimmy Graham.
Tampa Bay has Vincent Jackson, Mike Williams, and TE Timothy Wright.
Prior to free agency, Denver had Eric Decker, Demaryius Thomas, and TE Julius Thomas.
And Dallas had Dez Bryant, Miles Austin, and TE Jason Witten.

I'd say it's time for the Rams to join the party. They might even do it pre-draft with Kenny Britt. Or should they pass on him too because of Quick and Cook?;)
 

jrry32

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Once again, choosing to overlook how Evans does not separate and needs more time to get open. :rolleyes:

And no - I'm not going to go through every game and mark down how many times he made a big play off of a busted play. I've seen enough to see it leave a lasting impression - especially when you think about how many people are saying manziel won't make it because of the way he plays the QB position. Acting like that doesn't have an effect on Evans is nonsense

I'm gonna give this one last try. The bold is irrelevant.

Here are two plays, the players making the plays are IRRELEVANT...if it helps, picture Rosie O'Donnell as the WR making the catch in both videos:
Play #1
20130928_1845.gif


Play #2

CalvinJohnson1.gif

CalvinJohnson2.gif


Play #1 - People call this the Johnny Football Factor
Play #2 - No one would ever call this the Matt Stafford Factor

Rosie O'Donnell on the Aggies and Rosie O'Donnell on the Lions both make the amazing catches on what were very questionable decisions/throws by the QB. So why on earth should it be called the Johnny Football Factor if no one would call play #2 the Matt Stafford Factor? Both plays should be the Rosie O'Donnell Factor because Rosie is the one that made the amazing play.