The Goff thread to end all Goff threads

[Elmgrovegnome]

"Could have been construed" is being kind. After months of holding his tongue while alot of us pointed out the obvious, mcvay straight up said after the loss to miami, where goff had 2 god awful picks and 2 fumbles returned for touchdowns, that their was a lack of preparation, which shocked me. He even said that goff's bad reads made the offensive line look like they weren't doing their job.

That was when I jumped off the goff train. I wish him well but stafford is an upgrade, and I'm still wondering what goff meant, exactly, when he said in his first press conference in detroit that speaking to his new, inexperienced coach, it was a "breath of fresh air"

That's about when I quit defending him. I was all do drafting him. He was very good in college at avoiding the pass rush. I guess bigger, faster NFL defenses cancelled that ability

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Yet, you credit the coach when the QB makes the right throws and reads. You see why that comes off as hypocritical to me, right?



Nope, it was 1% better than expected.



Yeah, I am better than doing that. So ask yourself why you think it's proper to even blame McVay's play-calling failures on Goff. It's baffling. When the offense succeeds, it's McVay's doing. When the offense fails, it's Goff's doing.

Since McVay decided that he had to cut down the playbook and simplify the offense to help Goff succeed, after defensive coordinators realized that he struggled reading defenses, especially when they moved into different coverages just before the snap, isn't it likely that the number and kinds of plays he had to choose from was reduced? If that's the case then it makes it much more difficult to call the 'right' plays. So that was due to Goff's struggles once the league adjusted to exploit his weaknesses. It also made it more difficult for offensive success in general since they were very limited with explosive plays.

I recall McVay even said that they had the right plays against Miami but Jarred couldn't execute them. So how is McVay supposed to call the plays that allow Goff to succeed when Goff cannot execute them all, and his own limitations caused McVay to shorten the passing game?

 

[rams1fan]

Since McVay decided that he had to cut down the playbook and simplify the offense to help Goff succeed, after defensive coordinators realized that he struggled reading defenses, especially when they moved into different coverages just before the snap, isn't it likely that the number and kinds of plays he had to choose from was reduced? If that's the case then it makes it much more difficult to call the 'right' plays. So that was due to Goff's struggles once the league adjusted to exploit his weaknesses. It also made it more difficult for offensive success in general since they were very limited with explosive plays.

I recall McVay even said that they had the right plays against Miami but Jarred couldn't execute them. So how is McVay supposed to call the plays that allow Goff to succeed when Goff cannot execute them all, and his own limitations caused McVay to shorten the passing game?

Rams also ran play action more than any other team, it is much more difficult to decipher post snap defensive changes when you have your back to the defense.

 

[jrry32]

Since McVay decided that he had to cut down the playbook and simplify the offense to help Goff succeed, after defensive coordinators realized that he struggled reading defenses, especially when they moved into different coverages just before the snap, isn't it likely that the number and kinds of plays he had to choose from was reduced? If that's the case then it makes it much more difficult to call the 'right' plays. So that was due to Goff's struggles once the league adjusted to exploit his weaknesses. It also made it more difficult for offensive success in general since they were very limited with explosive plays.

I recall McVay even said that they had the right plays against Miami but Jarred couldn't execute them. So how is McVay supposed to call the plays that allow Goff to succeed when Goff cannot execute them all, and his own limitations caused McVay to shorten the passing game?

On the other hand, Goff might tell you that McVay was micromanaging him and cutting down the playbook (assuming that's true) wasn't necessary or beneficial. And he might tell you that McVay hung him out to dry against Miami by calling bad plays that put him in lose-lose situations. What I'm saying is that if the success of the play calling comes down to the QB's execution, you can't give the credit to McVay when the offense is looking great and the blame to Goff when it isn't. Because under that rationale, Goff is the key to the offense's success and failure.

 

[FrantikRam]

On the other hand, Goff might tell you that McVay was micromanaging him and cutting down the playbook (assuming that's true) wasn't necessary or beneficial. And he might tell you that McVay hung him out to dry against Miami by calling bad plays that put him in lose-lose situations. What I'm saying is that if the success of the play calling comes down to the QB's execution, you can't give the credit to McVay when the offense is looking great and the blame to Goff when it isn't. Because under that rationale, Goff is the key to the offense's success and failure.

You can apply that type of logic anywhere though. Blythe is everyone's favorite whipping boy but he had games where he played well.

So we gave credit to anyone but him when the offense performed well but then blamed him when he played poorly.

The difference being that despite the hyperbole most fans did give Goff credit for playing well.

 

[jrry32]

You can apply that type of logic anywhere though. Blythe is everyone's favorite whipping boy but he had games where he played well.

So we gave credit to anyone but him when the offense performed well but then blamed him when he played poorly.

The difference being that despite the hyperbole most fans did give Goff credit for playing well.

When was the last time somebody went through the season game by game and pointed to all the games Blythe lost us?

 

[FrantikRam]

When was the last time somebody went through the season game by game and pointed to all the games Blythe lost us?

Fair point, but people sure have no problem throwing him under the bus in real time and in every OL thread.

 

[jrry32]

Fair point, but people sure have no problem throwing him under the bus in real time and in every OL thread.

Sure. He was a liability in some games. It's pretty typical of us as fans to crap on the players who are performing poorly. I remember the days of Craig Dahl being the fanbase's whipping boy.

 

[Merlin]

Sure. He was a liability in some games. It's pretty typical of us as fans to crap on the players who are performing poorly. I remember the days of Craig Dahl being the fanbase's whipping boy.

That's not what happened with Goff. What happened with Goff was most of this board still believed in this guy even after 2019. I went back after that season and rewatched the entire thing in fact and that's when I started to doubt. But the line was so bad. So I said to myself "the lack of reads and poor vision were not his fault." At the beginning of this season I had the highest expectations that he'd bounce back and lead us to that championship but he continued to struggle with the same thing.

He looks like he's got battered QB syndrome tbh. Some guys just never recover from a breakdown in their confidence.

Lastly the difference between the guy we had at QB in 2020 and the guy we get this season is big. Stafford is what Goff will hopefully grow into. But at this point I no longer believe that. In fact I think Goff is just another guy who wasn't good enough. Defenses know if you put the game in his hands there's a good chance they win the game.

 

[jrry32]

That's not what happened with Goff. What happened with Goff was most of this board still believed in this guy even after 2019. I went back after that season and rewatched the entire thing in fact and that's when I started to doubt. But the line was so bad. So I said to myself "the lack of reads and poor vision were not his fault." At the beginning of this season I had the highest expectations that he'd bounce back and lead us to that championship but he continued to struggle with the same thing.

He looks like he's got battered QB syndrome tbh. Some guys just never recover from a breakdown in their confidence.

Lastly the difference between the guy we had at QB in 2020 and the guy we get this season is big. Stafford is what Goff will hopefully grow into. But at this point I no longer believe that. In fact I think Goff is just another guy who wasn't good enough. Defenses know if you put the game in his hands there's a good chance they win the game.

Goff went to two consecutive Pro Bowls (after having legitimately very good seasons) and led us to the Super Bowl. People are obviously going to be a lot more patient and understanding with a young QB who has done that than your typical underperforming player. But I now disagree with the takes on 2019. Looking back, it was clearly a big step down from where he was in 2018, but I don't think his play was poor. Our offense finished around the top 10 despite a shaky OL and a bad running game. You don't have a top 10 offense with bad QB play, a shaky OL, and a bad running game. I think his 2020 season was worse than his 2019 season, despite the circumstances being better.

Also, you responded to a post where I was talking about Austin Blythe, not Jared Goff.

 

[Shuie3225]

so are you saying mcvay is the only coach in the league that tries to scheme receivers open and no other qbs in the league have easy throws?

No of course McVay isnt the only coach doing it. But he is one of the best in the NFL at it. How did Nick Mullins play so well and beat the NFL's #1 defense? You think it's because he's a talented QB? No, the Shanahan west coast system is a proven winner, and McVay has an elite ability to call plays using that system. His feel for the game, the way he calls plays to keep defenses off balance all create very easy reads and throws for the QB.

This is what Richard Sherman was referring to when he said "easy lay-up" type plays. When the QB comes out of a play action fake or off a bootleg and the WR has 10 yards of separation. Goff was bottom 5 of the league in tight window throws. He was also bottom 5 in yards per attempt. Once defenses started to tighten up on McVays scheme, and every single game we didnt have a landslide scheme advantage, Goff turned into a below average QB. Which is why the quote from the ESPN article said McVay feels like "he has to be perfect in playcalls and gameplan to win".

 

[Shuie3225]

If that's the case, then why replace Goff with a superior QB? Surely if the throws are there for the taking, they could have just stuck with Wolford, traded for Minshew or signed Andy Dalton. Why the need for a top 10 QB making 30+ mill per year?

Because after seeing Lafluer have MVP level QB play with Rodgers using his own system, IMO McVay decided he isn't going to risk his career over Goff. As the article pointed out Wolford showed new wrinkles and better play in certain areas than Goff's last two years.

The easy throws will be there for Stafford as well no doubt about it. He will have more WRs schemed wide open than he ever has before. But the difference is, Stafford has the mental capacity to play the position at a high level. So when McVay doesn't present a big advantage, when all things are equal, Stafford can still make big plays. He can audible and control the game himself, he can move and use his legs when under pressure and still make big throws down the field. The point is, McVay doesn't have to be perfect on EVERY call every game. Stafford will be able to make plays in chaos, whereas with Goff the play was almost certainly dead if not a turnover.

 

[Shuie3225]

This is kinda funny...you have to at least see the irony in those two things you just said. I don't agree or disagree with your assessment re: McVay v. Goff because I honestly don't care anymore, but you have to see the irony in starting a statement with no one gave McVay credit for x, y, and z and than finishing that statement with What has Goff done without McVay and that these arent plays Goff is making but rather the result of McVay.....at least be somewhat logically consistent.

Thats fair to point out, but my only point is McVays system gives the QB a huge leg up. Looks at RG3s rookie year, Cousins, Goff. Look at Rodgers having career years in GB in this system, Matt Ryan's MVP year in this system, and now Shanahan can seemingly win with any QB.

Does this mean Goff hasn't carried games on his own? No of course not, I pointed out games where he was unbelievably great and shredded defenses. But when you look at the totality of his 5 year career, its not him winning all these games making elite throw after elite throw. More often than not hes not carrying the offense, the scheme is. Again if you go watch the film, you'll see the level of difficulty of the throws he's asked to make. On average they're not hard throws. 32nd rank in YPA but still 2nd in turnovers is not a good formula for success.

 

[dieterbrock]

Because after seeing Lafluer have MVP level QB play with Rodgers using his own system, IMO McVay decided he isn't going to risk his career over Goff. As the article pointed out Wolford showed new wrinkles and better play in certain areas than Goff's last two years.

Rodgers plays MVP level in his own system

 

[dieterbrock]

to be more fair to matt it was 36 picks with 49 td's and despite just 2 turnovers, jared had only 4 td's in 6 post season games, 7 games if you count the SB. That's not bad. That's horrible. 4 td's in 7 games. That's only one more than Matt and Matt's only been in one playoff game against the saints.

He had 44 turnovers, had lost 8 fumbles.

 

[FrantikRam]

Sure. He was a liability in some games. It's pretty typical of us as fans to crap on the players who are performing poorly. I remember the days of Craig Dahl being the fanbase's whipping boy.

Exactly.

I pretty much treat underperforming players the same. The only difference between Goff and Blythe is that when Blythe gets crapped on, nobody defends him. If they did, we'd have the same number of Blythe threads as Goff threads.

Actually there's one more difference - it's easier to take poor play from a guy taking up only 3-5% of the salary cap.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Sure. He was a liability in some games. It's pretty typical of us as fans to crap on the players who are performing poorly. I remember the days of Craig Dahl being the fanbase's whipping boy.

This idea that you can’t fairly blame in football because it’s a team sport, or whatever point you are trying to make is counter to your love of doing mock drafts.. Why pick newer or better players if you can’t recognize the bad ones? How can you evaluate a college players skills on the field when he could have been held back by his coach or his team? I guess you just pick athletes and don’t need to watch them play.

You think nobody blamed McVay. He got plenty of blame. Ppl asking why they don’t run up the gut or use the tight endsmore against a single high safety defense. Why is our offense all short passes? Why does his play calling suck. But he did have long passes and Goff rarely went to that play. Watch all 22. Many bad plays you can see receivers open. Goff wasn’t seeing them.

The QBalways gets the most blame. He is the field general. He’s the guy that makes the decisions with the ball in his hands and can go off schedule, adjust to the defense on every play and do something different to Extend the play. I rarely saw Goff do anything like that.

McVay didn’t draft Goff. He tried to work with him within his offense for five years. Defenses recognized Goff not being able to read their alignments and capitalized on it. So McVay needs someone that can do it because he can’t keep waiting on Jarred to figure it out. You don’t know if he ever will. So it was time to move on while they have a good roster and a shot at the Super Bowl. You can calm it criticism ofGoff and claim it’s McVay’s fault but in the end it sounds like sour grapes.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Rams also ran play action more than any other team, it is much more difficult to decipher post snap defensive changes when you have your back to the defense.

Play action is not some strange new strange concept that no that no quarterback has ever been able to master.

 

[Tano]

This idea that you can’t fairly blame in football because it’s a team sport, or whatever point you are trying to make is counter to your love of doing mock drafts.. Why pick newer or better players if you can’t recognize the bad ones? How can you evaluate a college players skills on the field when he could have been held back by his coach or his team? I guess you just pick athletes and don’t need to watch them play.

You think nobody blamed McVay. He got plenty of blame. Ppl asking why they don’t run up the gut or use the tight endsmore against a single high safety defense. Why is our offense all short passes? Why does his play calling suck. But he did have long passes and Goff rarely went to that play. Watch all 22. Many bad plays you can see receivers open. Goff wasn’t seeing them.

The QBalways gets the most blame. He is the field general. He’s the guy that makes the decisions with the ball in his hands and can go off schedule, adjust to the defense on every play and do something different to Extend the play. I rarely saw Goff do anything like that.

McVay didn’t draft Goff. He tried to work with him within his offense for five years. Defenses recognized Goff not being able to read their alignments and capitalized on it. So McVay needs someone that can do it because he can’t keep waiting on Jarred to figure it out. You don’t know if he ever will. So it was time to move on while they have a good roster and a shot at the Super Bowl. You can calm it criticism ofGoff and claim it’s McVay’s fault but in the end it sounds like sour grapes.

I have watched the All 22 and to me it appeared that McVay designed the short pass plays to be the intended target and if he wasn't open that Goff would then go to the deep receiver if he was open. But I rarely saw Goff have time to do that.

I do not know if McVay designed the plays that way because of Goff or because the line wasn't giving Goff enough time.

It could have been both. I really don't know.

Remember I did a write up on every pass play in the Seattle game and there may have been 2 or 3 plays that I think Goff possibly could have gone deep instead of the short pass play. And even on those plays, it was iffy that Goff should have gone deep.

 

[jrry32]

This idea that you can’t fairly blame in football because it’s a team sport, or whatever point you are trying to make is counter to your love of doing mock drafts.. Why pick newer or better players if you can’t recognize the bad ones? How can you evaluate a college players skills on the field when he could have been held back by his coach or his team? I guess you just pick athletes and don’t need to watch them play.

Well, that's not the point I'm making. That's actually miles off from the point I'm making. I'm saying you can fairly blame in football. But the key word in that phrase is "fairly." When you give the credit for the offense's successes to McVay and the blame for its failures to Goff, you're not being fair. You can't have your cake and eat it too.