The Goff thread to end all Goff threads

[payote75]

But some people forget it's been an evolution for both Goff and Mcvay and while a coach and player are different bare in mind mcvay was a rookie coach and Goff had a half a season on him experience wise granted under terrible leadership but still got a feel. Being a head coach is slot different than an assistant.

That said mcvay and Goff were supposed to evolve together. They started well however they came to a screeching halt ascvays evolution was continuing and he was trying to bring Goff along with it Goff just could not evolve further at least in this system. So mcvay was basically stuck at the rest stop trying to call plays that we would crucify him for because his hands were somewhat tied. So of course people will figure Goff out and Mcvay and then it seems mcvay us no longer a genius and Goff a bust. Just didn't fit.
Week after week mcvay stood there during pressers after losses and said "I got to do better blah blah blah" and most of us doesn't matter where we stood on goff would be like I'm sick of mcvay and this bullshit speech we didn't want to hear it anymore. We were getting tired of it. We were all criticising him at times. Was that fair? While he kept quiet week after week. So let's see now where he goes what he does, if he can evolve with the "allegedly" (need to put that word in for fear of offending someone) the better qb. Same for Goff. That simple.

Let's face it mcvays actions show he is not complacent will back you but when you for whatever reason do not progress do better or perhaps not have the skin or effort to get there well you gone. My job or yours.
Look at someone like gase never admitting anything. Mcvay tried took blame as long as he could lost it behind the scenes and then said enough I can't be complacent I need to right a wrong and man up. He did and now we are here. He will need to show it this year so jury is definitely out for both but maybe for mcvay more because his boss spent a lot of money and eventually mistakes make it so your time to pay the Piper comes in the form of a pink slip.

 

[wolfdogg]

Nobody would blame anybody but Goff for that pick. But that was a single play in that game. We were playing an 0-13 team and stunk up the field. The entire team came out flat. So yeah, it baffles me when people imply that the blame for that loss falls entirely on Goff's shoulders because he threw one INT. There are certainly plenty of examples of coaching putting players in positions to succeed and players not executing. But what bothers me is when people opt to credit the coach over the player when it is the player who went out and executed. Both deserve credit. And when things aren't going well, both are usually at fault.

It wasn't just that int. He was 11 for 19 with 86 yards and a pick in the first half. He made many poor decisions and many abnormally bad throws in that half.

It's true that the qb gets more credit than he should when things are going well and more blame when things are not so good, but I think it's also true that they usually do carry significantly more of the responsibility because they touch the ball on every play, decide who to throw the ball to, and then have to make a good throw. It's kinda why they get paid the most.

When the rams were winning in 2017 and 2018 I gave alot of the credit to goff because he was playing well. The last 2 years have been a reversal as goff has played horribly, bottom 5, and his mistakes were made at some of the worst times. In 2020, the rams made the playoffs despite goff.

 

[Riverumbbq]

I will give you a like for that. One thing in Goff's favor at Detroit is that he has an all-pro center.
So maybe he will do well or maybe he falls on his ass. I am hoping that Detroit doesn't become Death Valley for him like Jets QBs have when they get drafted by the Jets because I have no clue how the Detroit regime is going to perform.

Detroit's LT, LG & Center are all good players, but they could use serious upgrades at RT & RG. jmo.

 

[wolfdogg]

okay - but I was also adding that players do make bad plays from time to time but so do coaches making bad play calls from time time. As i said, maybe Goff did more than his fair share but I think he will get better. Usually QB's (not Mahomes) start showing if they become a star QB in year 6. This is year 6 - I really wanted to see if Goff would become a star QB. But oh well.

I hope goff does get better for his sake but right now, stafford is the better qb and I believe he fits mcvays offense better. Rams love the play action, for instance, and staffodrs numbers are better than goff's in play action, according to the piece I saw on NFL Netork

 

[jrry32]

It wasn't just that int. He was 11 for 19 with 86 yards and a pick in the first half. He made many poor decisions and many abnormally bad throws in that half.

It's true that the qb gets more credit than he should when things are going well and more blame when things are not so good, but I think it's also true that they usually do carry significantly more of the responsibility because they touch the ball on every play, decide who to throw the ball to, and then have to make a good throw. It's kinda why they get paid the most.

When the rams were winning in 2017 and 2018 I gave alot of the credit to goff because he was playing well. The last 2 years have been a reversal as goff has played horribly, bottom 5, and his mistakes were made at some of the worst times. In 2020, the rams made the playoffs despite goff.

Okay, if that's true, that means Goff went 11/15 for 123 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 Ints in the second half. So that begs the question, what caused the massive turnaround? Makes you wonder what changes we made at half.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I will give you a like for that. One thing in Goff's favor at Detroit is that he has an all-pro center.

So maybe he will do well or maybe he falls on his ass. I am hoping that Detroit doesn't become Death Valley for him like Jets QBs have when they get drafted by the Jets because I have no clue how the Detroit regime is going to perform. Are the Lions going to continue being like the Jets or will they become Rams 2.0 after 2017. If there is one team that I wouldn't mind doing well in that division are the Lions.

Don't like the Vikings or Bears and I am not a big fan of Rodgers at Green Bay - seems like he can be a dick.

TheLions Oline was very undisciplined last year. They will need some serious coaching or some changes. That team is a little ways away from letting a QB completely shine. But the new regime may be able to turn it around quickly.

 

[Riverumbbq]

Okay, if that's true, that means Goff went 11/15 for 123 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 Ints in the second half. So that begs the question, what caused the massive turnaround? Makes you wonder what changes we made at half.

It was the stink-eye from McVay that got his attention ...

 

[Tano]

It wasn't just that int. He was 11 for 19 with 86 yards and a pick in the first half. He made many poor decisions and many abnormally bad throws in that half.

It's true that the qb gets more credit than he should when things are going well and more blame when things are not so good, but I think it's also true that they usually do carry significantly more of the responsibility because they touch the ball on every play, decide who to throw the ball to, and then have to make a good throw. It's kinda why they get paid the most.

When the rams were winning in 2017 and 2018 I gave alot of the credit to goff because he was playing well. The last 2 years have been a reversal as goff has played horribly, bottom 5, and his mistakes were made at some of the worst times. In 2020, the rams made the playoffs despite goff.

I have to give you a not so sure about being a bottom 5 QB. I think he was definitely better than that and in the games where he played poorly in the first half, he usually played much much better in the second half and almost won those games. Not a bottom 5 QB whatsoever.

But I do agree - he was way too inconsistent last year. At times he would be a top 10 qb and other times be a bottom 10 QB and the bigger problem was - he would do that in the same game.

 

[jrry32]

I have to give you a not so sure about being a bottom 5 QB. I think he was definitely better than that and in the games where he played poorly in the first half, he usually played much much better in the second half and almost won those games. Not a bottom 5 QB whatsoever.

But I do agree - he was way too inconsistent last year. At times he would be a top 10 qb and other times be a bottom 10 QB and the bigger problem was - he would do that in the same game.

Yeah, I'm not sure how Goff could be a bottom 5 QB in 2019. Our running game was one of the worst in the NFL. Our OL was shaky at best for most of the year. You don't have a top 10 offense with those things and a bottom 5 QB. It simply doesn't happen.

 

[wolfdogg]

I guess if you only care about TDs when evaluating performance. Tom Brady, for example, threw a total of three TDs during his first five playoff games. TDs often come down to situational play-calling. For example, Stafford had five total TDs and five total TOs in his three playoff games, but his team has only averaged 18 PPG across those three games. Goff has four total TDs and two total TOs in his six playoff games, but his team has averaged 20 PPG across those six games. Does that mean Goff has been better than Stafford? No. They were playing in different situations. But reducing performance to one single stat is very flawed imo.

Brady was an average qb his first few years but that's another discussion.

As you say, reducing performance to one single game is flawed, and I agree, however, my opinion on goff is based on how he has played the last 2 years.

 

[wolfdogg]

I have to give you a not so sure about being a bottom 5 QB. I think he was definitely better than that and in the games where he played poorly in the first half, he usually played much much better in the second half and almost won those games. Not a bottom 5 QB whatsoever.

But I do agree - he was way too inconsistent last year. At times he would be a top 10 qb and other times be a bottom 10 QB and the bigger problem was - he would do that in the same game.

I meant to say bottom 5 in interceptions as he was tied for 3rd in 2020 and 4th in 2019. His other numbers were mediocre; 18th and 17th in td's, 13th and 19th in com%, 21st and 21st in rating. You're probably not going to win a SB with those kind of stats at the qb position but you can get keep your starting job with those numbers as long as you're not 3rd or 4th in int's

 

[jrry32]

Brady was an average qb his first few years but that's another discussion.

As you say, reducing performance to one single game is flawed, and I agree, however, my opinion on goff is based on how he has played the last 2 years.

I'd say above average, but you won't get strong disagreement from me. Of course, that plays into my disappointment that we gave up on Goff before he hit the window I've talked about.

 

[NJRamsFan]

On the bright side @jrry32 is back...I was scared we lost ya

 

[Mojo Ram]

"Too much former QB talk, look at my breasts"

 

[payote75]

"Too much former QB talk, look at my breasts"

Like that doesn't deserve 47 exclamation points!!!!!!!

 

[FarNorth]

Since McVay decided that he had to cut down the playbook and simplify the offense to help Goff succeed, after defensive coordinators realized that he struggled reading defenses, especially when they moved into different coverages just before the snap, isn't it likely that the number and kinds of plays he had to choose from was reduced? If that's the case then it makes it much more difficult to call the 'right' plays. So that was due to Goff's struggles once the league adjusted to exploit his weaknesses. It also made it more difficult for offensive success in general since they were very limited with explosive plays.

I recall McVay even said that they had the right plays against Miami but Jarred couldn't execute them. So how is McVay supposed to call the plays that allow Goff to succeed when Goff cannot execute them all, and his own limitations caused McVay to shorten the passing game?

I wasn't going to get into this, but it is just a bit too much for me to continue seeing this a priori assumption that McVay could do no wrong and that Goff was to blame for everything... which imo is a fair characterization of your comments. I apologize in advance for pushing this thread past its expiration date.

It's fair to say that Goff had a terrible game against Miami. But Goff wasn't all that went wrong. The Rams repeatedly ran empty backfields against a really well schemed Miami blitz, and against repeated zero blitzes. Both the network announcers, and myself at home, just couldn't believe that the Rams kept calling empty backfield formations against overwhelming, well executed pressure.

It's also equally fair imo to conclude that McVay hadn't adequately prepared for the Miami blitz, that maybe he had the wrong game plan at least coming into the game, and that he didn't adjust until the second half. Fwiw I'm not the only one who had these reactions in real time. "https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2020/11/1/21544839/rams-five-reactions-loss-to-dolphins ("Sean McVay's Unwillingness to Adjust"). The fact that Goff wasn't ready enough actually doesn't reflect well on the coaching and preparation either. Also fair to point out, as the article does, that McVay and Goff apparently disagreed about the the game plan.

Of course it would be unfair, and making excuses for Goff, to point out that this was the Rams' 4th trip to the East Coast in 8 weeks and came on a short week following a Monday night game.

The bigger problem imo was that the Rams 2020 offense had significant limitations. A couple of major ones pointed out in the ESPN article were the loss of key personnel from the 2017-18 offense , and the "CRACKING THE CODE" of McVay's scheme by other teams (as the article puts it in a heading.) Others included the lack of effective play action, ineffective blocking on predictable passing plays, the lack of a deep threat, the lack of any scheme for the red zone, the lack of development of Everett and Reynolds into scoring threats, etc. Goff couldn't overcome these limitations, but neither did McVay.

I like McVay a lot. But he isn't and shouldn't be above criticism, especially given all the stuff that we all know he has done really well. To his great credit, and contrary to many posters, in his public comments since the end of the season McVay himself has taken a much more balanced view of what happened. It's also evident that, for multiple reasons, McVay wanted and likely needed a different qb to evolve his offense. I'm good with that too and with Stafford and looking forward to this season.

I just don't understand why it is necessary to reduce things to black and white, one dimension, and to blame one player, when reality is clearly more complicated. Especially in football, which is a team game requiring a very high level of strategy and of execution by everybody involved to achieve success. Ironically, many of our posters are eager to agree with respect to Stafford, whose record in Detroit can't hold a candle to Goff's achievements with the Rams.

 

[jrry32]

I wasn't going to get into this, but it is just a bit too much for me continue seeing this a priori assumption that McVay could do no wrong and that Goff was to blame for everything... which imo is a fair characterization of your comments. I apologize in advance for pushing this thread past its expiration date.

It's fair to say that Goff had a terrible game against Miami. But Goff wasn't all that went wrong. The Rams repeatedly ran empty backfields against a really well schemed Miami blitz, and against repeated zero blitzes. Both the network announcers, and myself at home, just couldn't believe that the Rams kept calling empty backfield formations against overwhelming, well executed pressure.

It's also equally fair imo to conclude that McVay hadn't adequately prepared for the Miami blitz, that maybe he had the wrong game plan at least coming into the game, and that he didn't adjust until the second half. Fwiw I'm not the only one who had these reactions in real time. "https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2020/11/1/21544839/rams-five-reactions-loss-to-dolphins ("Sean McVay's Unwillingness to Adjust"). The fact that Goff wasn't ready enough actually doesn't reflect well on the coaching and preparation either. Also fair to point out, as the article does, that McVay and Goff apparently disagreed about the the game plan.

Shiiiit dude, I was big mad when McVay went empty inside the red zone on the play where Goff got creamed by Ogbah and Miami returned the fumble for a TD. Miami had just baited us into a pick using a C-0 pressure package when we went empty two drives before that. As soon as we came out in the empty set, I was yelling at my TV, "No, change the play! DON'T GO EMPTY!"

Yeah, one would hope Goff would do a better job of responding on his feet. But it's also on the play caller to recognize where the defense's game plan has you outflanked and not put your QB in positions where the defense can easily exploit a weakness. McVay can be angry all he wants about Goff not executing what he called, but the dude did him no favors that day with the play calling in the first half. And no, my criticism of McVay's shortcomings doesn't mean I excuse Goff's on that day either.

Regardless, McVay has his veteran QB now. As you said, he has the guy whom he believes can take his offense to the next level. We shall see what happens.

 

[Loyal]

It's a triple breast moment up in here!

 

[Tano]

Shiiiit dude, I was big mad when McVay went empty inside the red zone on the play where Goff got creamed by Ogbah and Miami returned the fumble for a TD. Miami had just baited us into a pick using a C-0 pressure package when we went empty two drives before that. As soon as we came out in the empty set, I was yelling at my TV, "No, change the play! DON'T GO EMPTY!"

Yeah, one would hope Goff would do a better job of responding on his feet. But it's also on the play caller to recognize where the defense's game plan has you outflanked and not put your QB in positions where the defense can easily exploit a weakness. McVay can be angry all he wants about Goff not executing what he called, but the dude did him no favors that day with the play calling in the first half. And no, my criticism of McVay's shortcomings doesn't mean I excuse Goff's on that day either.

Regardless, McVay has his veteran QB now. As you said, he has the guy whom he believes can take his offense to the next level. We shall see what happens.

I was yelling at the TV too.

Then I noticed that the way Miami was playing that a WR screen would work every time against that specific formation Miami was running where they had 6 guys line up tight at the line of scrimmage and 5 guys 5 to 7 yards back.

It would get at least 5 to 10 yards everytime they did that.

Then finally late in the third the Rams did just that and they gained almost 10 yards and every time Miami went into that formation the Rams threw a WR screen and got over 10 yards each time.

Finally Miami went out of that formation and Goff started to shred Miami. I don't know why McVay took so long to adapt.

Was he being stubborn?

That Miami game I primarily blamed McVay not Goff.

Goff made some horrible decisions but McVay didn't help him out with that play calling in the first 3 qtrs.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Shiiiit dude, I was big mad when McVay went empty inside the red zone on the play where Goff got creamed by Ogbah and Miami returned the fumble for a TD. Miami had just baited us into a pick using a C-0 pressure package when we went empty two drives before that. As soon as we came out in the empty set, I was yelling at my TV, "No, change the play! DON'T GO EMPTY!"

Yeah, one would hope Goff would do a better job of responding on his feet. But it's also on the play caller to recognize where the defense's game plan has you outflanked and not put your QB in positions where the defense can easily exploit a weakness. McVay can be angry all he wants about Goff not executing what he called, but the dude did him no favors that day with the play calling in the first half. And no, my criticism of McVay's shortcomings doesn't mean I excuse Goff's on that day either.

Regardless, McVay has his veteran QB now. As you said, he has the guy whom he believes can take his offense to the next level. We shall see what happens.

Again, I know how football works, nothing new. Team sport including the coaches. Nothing new there.

McVay didn’t call a good game plan against Miami. McVay also didn’t game plan for Goff to turn the ball over. That’s the problem. It’s been the problem that makes me use the Miami game as the one that exemplified why I agree with McVay that Goff was holding this team back. Every play this year I cringed waiting for the bad interception. That game was filled with very bad turnovers. Jarred could have thrown the ball away out of play. He could have curled up on the ball when he was getting sacked. He could have spiked the ball. Had Goff done those things there would still be a chance for the Rams to win that game. If Goff did those things then the only thing talked about would have been McVays poor game plan. But with a better QB maybe his game plan would have worked. Maybe we find out next year.

Many QBs in the league have perfected those tactics that Goff still hasn’t. A turnover is worse than a stopped drive, especially when the turnovers end up at 7 points x 4. This is where anyone’s arguments defending Goff’s play fall apart. Goff’s poor decisions, fumbles due to not protecting the ball and poorly thrown balls are the problem. They are his problem. Nobody can do those things for him. But all of you Goff apologists try their damndest to argue around it.