The Goff-season Thread

[Ram_Rally]

Use whatever you like. But I'm going to tell you that I use my eyeballs. Because I watch this team every single week. And I often watch our games more than once. If you watched our team all season long and didn't see the flaws in our OL, okay, that's your opinion. But if you did and are forsaking what you saw for PFF or somebody else's stats, I don't know what to say. What I will say is throwing stats at me isn't going to change my opinion.

Well I could go on and on about how, as a science major, I hate when people refute a stat with "idk but it won't change my mind. I just trust my eyeballs.".

I respect what you do. And your knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that. But PFF is employed by every nfl team and college program. Their not some teenagers in a basement making things up. Simply dismissing their metrics because of your eyeballs is a fatal flaw. But I'm totally inclined to leave well enough alone. And again, I know you know your stuff. I'm just highly against the eyeball analysis.

 

[Merlin]

I hope he doesn't have the worst of Gruden in him. By that I mean, Gruden used to hate young QBs because they would make young QB mistakes. They'd get fooled by coverage, miss blitzes, and force throws they shouldn't. So he'd always prefer to rely on older vets rather than develop young QBs. He'd make halfhearted efforts to play young QBs and then yank them for some older guy who was equal parts has-been and never-was. I think that lack of player development is part of why Tampa fired him.

Why am I saying this? The sort of things you're talking about are mistakes characteristic of young pocket passers. You give them time to mature mentally and they usually grow out of it. But it takes time and patience. It seems like McVay is getting impatient. I just hope he doesn't make a bad move based on that impatience.

Yeah I don't disagree that the areas he's struggled are areas that are common to young QBs. The Gruden connection might have something to it as well. But I think McVay has more than enough edge to him and maybe more than Gruden you just don't see it because he's so personable and agile in his communication.

IMO he's a hyper-competitive head coach. Every single player who has struggled gets jettisoned too man even guys he loves. He was really tight with Sully but the first offseason after he was exposed by physical fronts his ass was gone. He was tight with Cooks but rolled his ass right out of town after 2019. Gurley same I mean I also think the way he was sulking that McVay was taking chunks out of his ass weekly too. Not to say that McVay is mean or anything but I think he's full-on all the time and probably wears guys down.

So what he needs... At least what it seems to me right now, is a QB with super high compete. Whatever else their skills they're gonna have to be able to endure McVay's pressure over time.

 

[payote75]

The roll out theory works both ways though. Maybe mcvay called more of those to allow Goff to go through progressions. Knowing that when he feels pressure if a team blitzes etc. it flusters him and he tends to turn it over. It could be a combination of both issues but the roll out was designed to help Goff for multiple reasons. When teams took that away he would struggle with those too.
There is also something to be said when a qb be needs a lot of advantages to be successful. Maybe I'm not wording it correctly with advantages but for instance

1. it's mcvay guiding him in earpiece teams get wise they change defense after the 15 seconds and he struggles. Mcvay adjusts.

2. The element of surprise quick to the line no huddle teams adjust he struggles.

3. The rollout plays bootlegs etc. Does well teams again get wise he struggles.

My point being there comes a time where you just must simply be a qb mix it all up and do it at least well if not great without turning it over. He is paid to be great sadly. And the rams are at fault for that not Goff.

We technically don't know if it's Goff or Mcvay who is the problem. Looks like its Goff though, either way seems they need a divorce not counseling.

That's where the argument of if you can't supplement the bonus super plays the impromptu plays then you need to at least not turn it over. It's ok to just be good or very good and not great despite the pay grade but don't turn it over. That's where I think the frustration is stemming from.

Like example he hired raheem Morris cause he just wants the defensive coordinator to do their job not babysit them and I think that's how he feels about Goff the too. The babysitting is over. Team has to take the next step.

Does that mean Goff can't or won't be great elsewhere no it doesn't assuming he goes elsewhere. And if he does I hope he shines as I always say except against us.

 

[jrry32]

It wasn't a pff stat. It was a dvoa. See that's the the thing. All of these different analytics are saying they were good and yet y'all keep saying it wasn't. Based on what? What are you seeing that all these different organizations don't?

And as for the 2018 line. That might be the best in Rams history. Please don't tell me that Goff needs a once in a lifetime line to succeed.

I don't see that OL as remotely once in a lifetime. Whit and Saffold were great. Hav was about the same as he was this year. Blythe and Sullivan were serviceable until late in the year. What that line didn't have (until maybe the playoffs) was any weak links. And that's the point I keep making about our OL. It's about the sum of its parts. You don't need elite players across the board. What you need is a unit that has no weak links and one or two guys who elevate the players around them.

 

[FrantikRam]

It wasn't a pff stat. It was a dvoa. See that's the the thing. All of these different analytics are saying they were good and yet y'all keep saying it wasn't. Based on what? What are you seeing that all these different organizations don't?

And as for the 2018 line. That might be the best in Rams history. Please don't tell me that Goff needs a once in a lifetime line to succeed.

What's funny about people referencing that 2018 OL is that Blythe and Sullivan routinely got beaten. Our OL got dominated by the Bears, Eagles and Patriots that year. It was very close to the same as this year - the main difference was a healthy Gurley and Goff just played better.

Sometimes an offensive line has a bad game - QBs like Wilson have made plays and won games in spite of a struggling OL.

 

[FrantikRam]

Didnt look like 2.5 seconds against the packers. How about against the dolphins. How bout the 1st 9er game.

Even the best QB can't fix everything. Plus their d is terrible. As I said before. Wins are what you judge a team by. Not player. Watson has huge play maker ability. I think as good as mahomes. Swap teams and you would have very similar win loss on each team as they do now. Talent works both ways. The talent around mahomes makes mahomes. He has more help than any other QB. Its kind of the chicken or the egg. Oh and never for get coaching. No qb can over come coaching

The first Niner game the OL was excellent

 

[Ram_Rally]

I don't see that OL as remotely once in a lifetime. Whit and Saffold were great. Hav was about the same as he was this year. Blythe and Sullivan were serviceable until late in the year. What that line didn't have (until maybe the playoffs) was any weak links. And that's the point I keep making about our OL. It's about the sum of its parts. You don't need elite players across the board. What you need is a unit that has no weak links and one or two guys who elevate the players around them.

Well as a unit Goff had one of the cleanest pockets I've ever seen in my lifetime granted I'm only thirty. But there was no getting through or around that line. And they were great run blockers too.

 

[Ram_Rally]

What's funny about people referencing that 2018 OL is that Blythe and Sullivan routinely got beaten. Our OL got dominated by the Bears, Eagles and Patriots that year. It was very close to the same as this year - the main difference was a healthy Gurley and Goff just played better.

Sometimes an offensive line has a bad game - QBs like Wilson have made plays and won games in spite of a struggling OL.

I agree. Sometimes offensive lines have bad games. That's why I'm pointing out people using 3 games to say our line was bad this year (not everyone, just a few). The Patriots game was more about non stop blitzing I believe. The other 2 just had great defensive lines.

I don't agree about blythe though. I remember him being particularly strong in 18. Sullivan was the only "weak link" if I remember correctly.

 

[jrry32]

Well I could go on and on about how, as a science major, I hate when people refute a stat with "idk but it won't change my mind. I just trust my eyeballs.".

I respect what you do. And your knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that. But PFF is employed by every nfl team and college program. Their not some teenagers in a basement making things up. Simply dismissing their metrics because of your eyeballs is a fatal flaw. But I'm totally inclined to leave well enough alone. And again, I know you know your stuff. I'm just highly against the eyeball analysis.

PFF delivers data to NFL teams. Their grades are for the media and fans. I know how PFF's grading system works and why NFL teams don't rely on it. I considered getting involved with PFF when they were just starting out and opted not to do so after talking to their founder (very nice guy) about how they graded games.

My issue with that stat you quoted is that it doesn't account for QB style or scheme. We were the most play-action heavy offense in the NFL. Play-action passes are slower developing. Our traditional dropback game did not ask Goff to hold the ball for long, and that was obvious watching the team this year. It's like trying to judge Russell Wilson's protection based on the time to throw metric. You can't do it because Wilson's style of play drives up his time to throw regardless of the protection.

The problem with individual stats in a sport as team-oriented in the NFL is that they can't account for what the failure is on any given play. You hope that when you get a big enough sample size that it accurately sums up a player's play. And to some degree, it does. But context is important. And that sample size really isn't a single season.

 

[jrry32]

Well as a unit Goff had one of the cleanest pockets I've ever seen in my lifetime granted I'm only thirty. But there was no getting through or around that line. And they were great run blockers too.

That OL blocked like OLs I've seen Brady have for much of his career. And unsurprisingly, Goff thrived. Goff is a pocket passer. Protect him, and he'll deliver for us imo. He may never be Brady or Manning, but he's shown he can be quite effective when the right pieces are in place.

 

[Faceplant]

Well as a unit Goff had one of the cleanest pockets I've ever seen in my lifetime granted I'm only thirty. But there was no getting through or around that line. And they were great run blockers too.

Man, did you even watch the GSOT?? The only reason that offense even worked to that degree was the time the OL gave Kurt to let those routes develop. Regardless, both OLs were helped by having an all pro RB in the backfield.

 

[jrry32]

I agree. Sometimes offensive lines have bad games. That's why I'm pointing out people using 3 games to say our line was bad this year (not everyone, just a few). The Patriots game was more about non stop blitzing I believe. The other 2 just had great defensive lines.

I don't agree about blythe though. I remember him being particularly strong in 18. Sullivan was the only "weak link" if I remember correctly.

I'm not saying the OL is bad. I don't know anybody who is. I'd say our OL was a top 10 unit with Whitworth and an average unit without him. With Whitworth, it was still better at run blocking than pass blocking (I'd call it an above average to good pass blocking unit with Whit). As for Blythe, he had a rough go of it in the playoffs in 2018.

 

[Faceplant]

Also, Snead should stay the F away from interviews. He's shitting on the same dude that HE extended early with a record setting contract....now that I think about it... How many contracts has Les fucked up in the last few years?? Does he just get carte blanche for the Ramsey trade?

 

[FrantikRam]

Also, Snead should stay the F away from interviews. He's shitting on the same dude that HE extended early with a record setting contract....

I'm starting to view those early extensions as a reward for how they played. Gurley for example more than earned his money before getting it. Goff also earned more than what he was making although probably not to the same extent as Gurley.

But whether that was the intention, it's genius. Any free agents who question it, they have a fantastic answer:

"Our model shows that you'll get paid, and that were committed to a high standard"

 

[Faceplant]

I'm starting to view those early extensions as a reward for how they played. Gurley for example more than earned his money before getting it. Goff also earned more than what he was making although probably not to the same extent as Gurley.

But whether that was the intention, it's genius. Any free agents who question it, they have a fantastic answer:

"Our model shows that you'll get paid, and that were committed to a high standard"

Genius to pay for previous play? While it may be generous, it sure isn't GM 101. Look at the dead $ on our roster!! You think that may have hindered us from upgrading a few positions last season??

 

[dieterbrock]

W

Works for the Colts. They would give the chiefs and bills a run for their money. The rams would be stuck in 7 and 9 bullshit. Trading Goff is fools gold. Make the oline bigger. Stronger, better. There. Offense fixed.

Wont get an argument from me, I think Goff and this offense would be much better next season with a full year of Akers, Van Jefferson elevating his role and hopefully a healthy Higbee
As for the making the oline bigger, stronger, better, who do you suppose they do that? Dont misunderstand, I am not disagreeing that they should, just dont know how they do with no cap space and only 1 draft pick in the first 2 rounds

 

[jrry32]

Wont get an argument from me, I think Goff and this offense would be much better next season with a full year of Akers, Van Jefferson elevating his role and hopefully a healthy Higbee
As for the making the oline bigger, stronger, better, who do you suppose they do that? Dont misunderstand, I am not disagreeing that they should, just dont know how they do with no cap space and only 1 draft pick in the first 2 rounds

We can do it. There are some very talented interior OLs on Day 2 of this Draft, and we can create the space to grab one from FA if we want.

 

[Ram_Rally]

PFF delivers data to NFL teams. Their grades are for the media and fans. I know how PFF's grading system works and why NFL teams don't rely on it. I considered getting involved with PFF when they were just starting out and opted not to do so after talking to their founder (very nice guy) about how they graded games.

My issue with that stat you quoted is that it doesn't account for QB style or scheme. We were the most play-action heavy offense in the NFL. Play-action passes are slower developing. Our traditional dropback game did not ask Goff to hold the ball for long, and that was obvious watching the team this year. It's like trying to judge Russell Wilson's protection based on the time to throw metric. You can't do it because Wilson's style of play drives up his time to throw regardless of the protection.

The problem with individual stats in a sport as team-oriented in the NFL is that they can't account for what the failure is on any given play. You hope that when you get a big enough sample size that it accurately sums up a player's play. And to some degree, it does. But context is important. And that sample size really isn't a single season.

Okay but we know that Goff doesn't present that same flaw with the stat, right? Because I like russ he can't extend plays himself. So his 2.5 might be a pure 2.5. And we've always been a play action heavy team. We didn't use that to condemn the line in the past. Unless you're saving that we did it less this year. Then I understand. But I thought we were still pretty play action oriented.

But all I'm saying is this. Whether we're talking about pure stats or advanced analytics that take observation and context (like pff) I can't find anyone who will say our offensive line wasn't average at worst. So in our case it seems like a scapegoat.


P.s. start your own pff so I can make that my new number 1 reference for football. I will be checking your statical analysis though (lol)

 

[Ram_Rally]

I'm not saying the OL is bad. I don't know anybody who is. I'd say our OL was a top 10 unit with Whitworth and an average unit without him. With Whitworth, it was still better at run blocking than pass blocking (I'd call it an above average to good pass blocking unit with Whit). As for Blythe, he had a rough go of it in the playoffs in 2018.

Ahhhh okay. I agree with you there. See I know numbers can be flawed. So when I see pff put as at a 3, I think to myself "I don't trust that but I can be confident that it means we weren't bad at least". It seems like, for some, the convo has shifted to our offensive line wasn't capable of being a winning unit.

 

[Ram_Rally]

Man, did you even watch the GSOT?? The only reason that offense even worked to that degree was the time the OL gave Kurt to let those routes develop. Regardless, both OLs were helped by having an all pro RB in the backfield.

I was nine so I had no idea what I was looking at besides a ball going very high and very far into a receivers hands lol