The Goff-season Thread

[dieterbrock]

We can do it. There are some very talented interior OLs on Day 2 of this Draft, and we can create the space to grab one from FA if we want.

Well count me in then. I want no part of Goff becoming a stud elsewhere. I think Akers alone makes this team so much harder to defend, and having that second threat will open things up for Goff. And then you're gonna tell me we can improve the interior O-line to boot?
Sold

 

[thirteen28]

It wasn't a pff stat. It was a dvoa. See that's the the thing.

My response to you on that stat is pretty much the same as @jrry32 's. No need for me to repeat here.

And as for the 2018 line. That might be the best in Rams history. Please don't tell me that Goff needs a once in a lifetime line to succeed.

You must be pretty young. As mentioned above, the GSOT line was stellar, anchored by a HoF LOT in Orlando Pace, and gave Warner shitloads of time to throw. Not coincidentally, when they started to decline, so did Warner.

And you definitely seem to have missed our OLs of the 70's and 80's, which were big, physical, and stout lines which more then routinely held their own in matchups against the Steel Curtain (Steelers), the Purple People Eaters (Vikings), and the Doomsday Defense (Dallas), all of whom sporting very stout defensive lines and excellent linebackers.

What's funny about people referencing that 2018 OL is that Blythe and Sullivan routinely got beaten. Our OL got dominated by the Bears, Eagles and Patriots that year.

Yes, those games were late in the year, and that's when the play of those two dropped off significantly - right about the same time as our offense dropped off significantly. Those two things are connected to one another.

Sometimes an offensive line has a bad game - QBs like Wilson have made plays and won games in spite of a struggling OL.

Goff isn't Wilson, who is able to mask some of his own OLs deficiencies with his mobility. Goff has never had Wilson's mobility and expecting him to be the same kind of QB is a fool's errand. Thus, it's not really that valid of a comparison.

And BTW, even though Wilson could sometimes cover up for OL deficiencies in Seattle, how did that work out in the playoffs when they ran into a stout defense? Even a QB like that needs good OL play if he wants to go deep in the playoffs.

I don't agree about blythe though. I remember him being particularly strong in 18. Sullivan was the only "weak link" if I remember correctly.

Blythe was not a liability in 2017 and through the first 2/3 of 2018. But he's been a big liability most of the time since then. A few good games here and there but he also gets abused a lot.

Every single player who has struggled gets jettisoned too man even guys he loves. He was really tight with Sully but the first offseason after he was exposed by physical fronts his ass was gone. He was tight with Cooks but rolled his ass right out of town after 2019. Gurley same I mean I also think the way he was sulking that McVay was taking chunks out of his ass weekly too. Not to say that McVay is mean or anything but I think he's full-on all the time and probably wears guys down.

Please explain Blythe. Struggled late in 2018, and throughout most of 2019 and 2020. How did he last so long?

 

[NJRamsFan]

Well I could go on and on about how, as a science major, I hate when people refute a stat with "idk but it won't change my mind. I just trust my eyeballs.".

I respect what you do. And your knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that. But PFF is employed by every nfl team and college program. Their not some teenagers in a basement making things up. Simply dismissing their metrics because of your eyeballs is a fatal flaw. But I'm totally inclined to leave well enough alone. And again, I know you know your stuff. I'm just highly against the eyeball analysis.

PFF has limitations though because they can only grade certain things. Sometimes in football it’s more about what didn’t happen. For example PFF will tell you that the following cbs were better than Jalen Ramsay:

1) Jaire Alexander
2) Xavien Howard
3) Bryce Callahan
4) Darius Williams
5) Jonathan Jones
6) Ahkello Witherspoon
7) James Bradberry
8) Jason Verrett

Now do you believe this to be true simply because PFF said it or will you use your eyeballs and context to understand that Jalen Ramsay damn sure is not the second best corner on his own team?

 

[Ram_Rally]

That OL blocked like OLs I've seen Brady have for much of his career. And unsurprisingly, Goff thrived. Goff is a pocket passer. Protect him, and he'll deliver for us imo. He may never be Brady or Manning, but he's shown he can be quite effective when the right pieces are in place.

Yes but that's not the issue. The issue is that we can't rely on lines being THAT good all the time. Brady also gets the ball out quickly which helps his line. Goff does not.

 

[Florida_Ram]

Also, Snead should stay the F away from interviews. He's shitting on the same dude that HE extended early with a record setting contract....

It's the world of GM's my friend.

It won't be the last time Snead and company make a mistake.

I don't agree that Snead or McVay need to stay away from interviews regarding their richly paid QB. Why pretend everything is rainbows and lollipops.

They are being straight forward and eating crow for their mistakes.

They could've been more politically correct but it would not have made a difference in Goff's value no matter how much sugar they put in the cheerios.

Teams know what Jared Goff is after 5 seasons.

The Rams brass is being blunt even if it's not the way us armchair fans would've done it.

I've been a huge advocate of Goff and it sucks the way he's being lamented but this is the NFL..

You don't always say the right things or act the right way when it's obvious to the entire NFL world.

Be real and play with cards you have been dealt. There is no poker game to played with Goff.

The whole NFL world has in depth insight on the Rams QB situation.



Snead and McVay made Goff a sweet multimillionaire and he was not able to deliver the goods.

They were not going to fool anyone with his trade value no matter how their interviews have been portrayed after the Green Bay loss.

 

[FrantikRam]

Genius to pay for previous play? While it may be generous, it sure isn't GM 101. Look at the dead $ on our roster!! You think that may have hindered us from upgrading a few positions last season??

I don't. Who is a player we could have signed with more space? Maybe Conklin I guess. He signed with the Browns pretty much before FA started. We actually did more in FA than I thought possible last year.

 

[dieterbrock]

Jared Goff is a grown ass man making millions of dollars, has a supermodel girlfriend and is living the LA life right now.. If he gets butthurt over what the media says about him, that's own fault.

The competitor in him should be fired up.

Takes the team to the Superbowl, makes playoffs for 3rd time in 4 years, 4th straight winning season for 1st time since 1986 and plays in 2 playoff games with a broken thumb and he yet he should be motivated by the team shitting on him? And all because McVay got a woodie watching Wolford scramble his way to a 9 point outing?

 

[dieterbrock]

I feel like all McVay is asking for is manage the game, make your easy throws and don't turn it over. Seems like such an easy task.

Like exactly how he played in the 2 playoff games? Didnt seem to earn him any favors yeah?

 

[Shuie3225]

The sort of things you're talking about are mistakes characteristic of young pocket passers. You give them time to mature mentally and they usually grow out of it.

In what ways has Goff developed mentally over 5 years? All Ive seen is regression mentally. Pre snap recognition, coverage recognition, where to go with the football. These are the areas he struggles in. All mental.

Thats the big issue with comparing his stats to a young Peyton. Its borderline blasphemous to me honestly, because anyone that watched Peyton at the LOS, or pre snap with his audibles, or post snap with his ability to read coverage, or how much time he spent watching film... Showed he was elite mentally.

Can you help develop a players brain? Cognative processing ability cant improve with coaching IMO. I mean Goff as a 21 yr old kid didn't know which way the sun rose and set? I think he has all the physical tools to be great, but lacks the most important tool for QB and that's their mental processing and decision making abilities.

 

[Ram_Rally]

PFF has limitations though because they can only grade certain things. Sometimes in football it’s more about what didn’t happen. For example PFF will tell you that the following cbs were better than Jalen Ramsay:

1) Jaire Alexander
2) Xavien Howard
3) Bryce Callahan
4) Darius Williams
5) Jonathan Jones
6) Ahkello Witherspoon
7) James Bradberry
8) Jason Verrett

Now do you believe this to be true simply because PFF said it or will you use your eyeballs and context to understand that Jalen Ramsay damn sure is not the second best corner on his own team?

Yes they have limitations. That's how numbers work though. You'll never find a flawless system. But that's better than no system. Your eyeball's or my eyeballs or anyone else's isn't a system. it's a perspective. That doesn't mean eyeballs aren't ever useful, but it should never take precedent over analytics. You have to marry the two but I'll always trust analytics more.

And as for the Ramsey thing. PFF will literally tell you that Ramsey is one of the best corners in the league, and that being the highest graded doesn't always mean you're the best. Covering different recievers, playing different teams, etc. They said after Ramsey signed his deal that he's a generational corner though.

 

[Allen2McVay]

Also, Snead should stay the F away from interviews. He's shitting on the same dude that HE extended early with a record setting contract ...

Agree.
I like McVay and Snead (glad we have them).

That being said, I would be OK if Stan Kroenke did an interview tomorrow and said ‘Right now Sean McVay is our head coach, and Les Snead is our GM but it’s only January 28th and everything is on-the-table’

 

[ottoman89]

Like exactly how he played in the 2 playoff games? Didnt seem to earn him any favors yeah?

For the first time all season versus SEA we didn't turn the ball over. And he counted for 18 total turnovers. So wow, he finally wasn't a liability.

 

[NJRamsFan]

Yes they have limitations. That's how numbers work though. You'll never find a flawless system. But that's better than no system. Your eyeball's or my eyeballs or anyone else's isn't a system. it's a perspective. That doesn't mean eyeballs aren't ever useful, but it should never take precedent over analytics. You have to marry the two but I'll always trust analytics more.

And as for the Ramsey thing. PFF will literally tell you that Ramsey is one of the best corners in the league, and that being the highest graded doesn't always mean you're the best.

Perspective matters though. Like when Ramsay doesn’t get any grade because QBs avoid him he’s actually doing the ultimate job of a corner in scaring a qb away from his favorite target or an entire side of a field. Or when the rams roll out over and over therefore increasing the statistic you keep referencing that is not an indication of the line doing a superior job it’s a play call.

Obviously systems and statistics matter that should go without saying. But for you to watch this o line all year and say that they are a top unit simply because of an arbitrary number is being willfully ignorant. Did you honestly not notice McVay intentionally covering for his line this season? Or Blythe being god awful?

 

[Ram_Rally]

Perspective matters though. Like when Ramsay doesn’t get any grade because QBs avoid him he’s actually doing the ultimate job of a corner in scaring a qb away from his favorite target or an entire side of a field. Or when the rams roll out over and over therefore increasing the statistic you keep referencing that is not an indication of the line doing a superior job it’s a play call.

Obviously systems and statistics matter that should go without saying. But for you to watch this o line all year and say that they are a top unit simply because of an arbitrary number is being willfully ignorant. Did you honestly not notice McVay intentionally covering for his line this season? Or Blythe being god awful?

Try not to project on me, because as I've said, I don't think our line was great. I just used the numbers to come to the conclusion that they weren't bad like y'all are making them out to be. I stated so earlier.

What did Mcvay do to cover up the line issue? And why would pff not have accounted for that in their in depth analysis? Because rolling out over and over will obviously not increase time in the pocket rates

 

[jrry32]

Okay but we know that Goff doesn't present that same flaw with the stat, right? Because I like russ he can't extend plays himself. So his 2.5 might be a pure 2.5. And we've always been a play action heavy team. We didn't use that to condemn the line in the past. Unless you're saving that we did it less this year. Then I understand. But I thought we were still pretty play action oriented.

But all I'm saying is this. Whether we're talking about pure stats or advanced analytics that take observation and context (like pff) I can't find anyone who will say our offensive line wasn't average at worst. So in our case it seems like a scapegoat.

It's not. That's what I keep explaining. Our heavy usage of play action and boot action inflates that particular stat. We can both agree that our 2019 OL was not good, yes? Even PFF ranked it as one of the NFL's worst. Do you know what Goff's pocket time was in 2019 according to Pro Football Reference? 2.6 seconds. That was second most in the NFL behind Kirk Cousins. Our long-developing play-action passes accomplish what Russell Wilson's scrambling does. They inflate that number without actually shedding light on how good our protection was.

I'm not using play action to condemn the OL. I'm saying that number is not indicative of Goff's actual time to throw in our traditional dropback game (i.e., without play action) and is a poor indicator of how good his protection is.

Yes but that's not the issue. The issue is that we can't rely on lines being THAT good all the time. Brady also gets the ball out quickly which helps his line. Goff does not.

I disagree. Goff got the ball out very quickly this year in our traditional dropback game.

 

[NJRamsFan]

Try not to project on me, because as I've said, I don't think our line was great. I just used the numbers to come to the conclusion that they weren't bad like y'all are making them out to be. I stated so earlier.

What did Mcvay do to cover up the line issue? And why would pff not have accounted for that in their in depth analysis? Because rolling out over and over will obviously not increase time in the pocket rates

He called quick short passes and rolled Goff out a ton. They can’t include that in their analysis because it’s not a data point that’s identifiable. It can be reasonably concluded that McVay did those things because of lack of faith in his o line however it can not mathematically calculated since in theory maybe McVay just doesn’t like deep passes anymore.

 

[FrantikRam]

Try not to project on me, because as I've said, I don't think our line was great. I just used the numbers to come to the conclusion that they weren't bad like y'all are making them out to be. I stated so earlier.

What did Mcvay do to cover up the line issue? And why would pff not have accounted for that in their in depth analysis? Because rolling out over and over will obviously not increase time in the pocket rates

And even if McVay is covering for the OL, so what? The end result is that Goff had time.

So either the OL was fine or McVay did a good job giving him time in spite of that.

Yet the most consistent arguments defending Goff's play seem to be that the OL was bad AND that's McVays fault.

It's not just PFF or DVOA - there's not a bad stat out there. ESPN, yards per carry, sacks allowed, pressured allowed - all at least average, most above average

 

[Ram_Rally]

He called quick short passes and rolled Goff out a ton. They can’t include that in their analysis because it’s not a data point that’s identifiable. It can be reasonably concluded that McVay did those things because of lack of faith in his o line however it can not mathematically calculated since in theory maybe McVay just doesn’t like deep passes anymore

Sorry I should've clarified. The time in the pocket stat isn't from pff. I was making two different statements. I got that stat from here.

2020 NFL Advanced Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2020 NFL Advanced Passing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

Now, I can't find how they calculate it but it's called "pocket time" but they define it as:

• Pocket Time: Number of seconds the quarterback was in the pocket between the snap of the ball and a pass or the collapse of the pocket

So rollouts would not count.

 

[Ram_Rally]

And even if McVay is covering for the OL, so what? The end result is that Goff had time.

So either the OL was fine or McVay did a good job giving him time in spite of that.

Yet the most consistent arguments defending Goff's play seem to be that the OL was bad AND that's McVays fault.

It's not just PFF or DVOA - there's not a bad stat out there. ESPN, yards per carry, sacks allowed, pressured allowed - all at least average, most above average

Which is exactly my issue with eyeballing things. We see what we want.

 

[NJRamsFan]

Sorry I should've clarified. The time in the pocket stat isn't from pff. I was making two different statements. I got that stat from here.

2020 NFL Advanced Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2020 NFL Advanced Passing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

Now, I can't find how they calculate it but it's called "pocket time" but they define it as:

• Pocket Time: Number of seconds the quarterback was in the pocket between the snap of the ball and a pass or the collapse of the pocket

So rollouts would not count.

Right but you asked me what McVay did to cover for his line and why pff not be able to calculate it. Which is what I answered. The conversation you are having with Jrry is much more indicative of why the 2.5 number is inflated