Stafford and those 2 first-rounders - worth it?

[Faceplant]

Need I say more?

 

[PhillyRam]

That's an interesting theory. Instead of the All Pro safety who was their leading sacker and second-best run defender (behind Wagner), it was the good DE who actually changed things. Here's where your theory falls flat. Seattle's best defensive run in 2020 was a five-game stretch from Philly through the Week 16 Rams game where they held every team to 17 points or less.

During that stretch, Dunlap missed one game entirely (Seattle's best defensive performance of the season), played 33% of the snaps in another of the games, 41% of the snaps in a game, and 54% of the snaps and 60% of the snaps in the two final games. In the game he played 60% of the snaps in (against us), he had 0 tackles. In fact, Dunlap had a total of 4 tackles, 1 TFL, and 1.5 sacks over that entire stretch of games.

Jamal Adams, meanwhile, played 100% of the snaps in four of the five games and 81% of the snaps in the fifth game (because Seattle rested its starters late in a game they won 40-3). Over that five-game stretch, Adams recorded 42 tackles, 4 TFLs, and 4 sacks. In case you're curious, those numbers would project out to 134 tackles, 13 TFLs, and 13 sacks over 16 games.

You really want to argue that Carlos Dunlap was the catalyst for their defensive turnaround and not the guy who was putting up DPOY-level production in those games? C'mon. As I said earlier, the trade made sense at the time. In hindsight, it's easy to say it was a bad move because the Seahawks fell apart. They were chasing a Super Bowl and felt they had a window.

One could easily say our Brandin Cooks trade was a bad move using the same hindsight. If we had kept our 1st round pick, the three WRs who went after our pick in order were D.J. Moore, Calvin Ridley, and Courtland Sutton. But I would vehemently disagree with any person who said that it was a bad trade when we made it.

Could it be since that time that teams figured out that Adams couldn't cover their dead Grandma? And that is one reason why in this day and age you don't trade 2 first rounders for a box safety?

And it's no comparison to trading for an elite cover CB, who is also physical in the run game.

 

[FrantikRam]

An argument over a safety a division rival traded for breaking out in a QB argument thread. This is new and maybe a good sign.

Also you people will argue about anything.

I continually hope that people will be able to admit they're wrong and I allow that to suck me in sometimes.

It's fascinating to me that someone could say that trade made sense at the time but the trade for Stafford did not. Does not compute.

 

[SuperMan28]

It depends on who the Rams could have had with the draft picks. So we'll have to wait and see on that.

 

[Kupped]

That's an interesting theory. Instead of the All Pro safety who was their leading sacker and second-best run defender (behind Wagner), it was the good DE who actually changed things. Here's where your theory falls flat. Seattle's best defensive run in 2020 was a five-game stretch from Philly through the Week 16 Rams game where they held every team to 17 points or less.

During that stretch, Dunlap missed one game entirely (Seattle's best defensive performance of the season), played 33% of the snaps in another of the games, 41% of the snaps in a game, and 54% of the snaps and 60% of the snaps in the two final games. In the game he played 60% of the snaps in (against us), he had 0 tackles. In fact, Dunlap had a total of 4 tackles, 1 TFL, and 1.5 sacks over that entire stretch of games.

Jamal Adams, meanwhile, played 100% of the snaps in four of the five games and 81% of the snaps in the fifth game (because Seattle rested its starters late in a game they won 40-3). Over that five-game stretch, Adams recorded 42 tackles, 4 TFLs, and 4 sacks. In case you're curious, those numbers would project out to 134 tackles, 13 TFLs, and 13 sacks over 16 games.

You really want to argue that Carlos Dunlap was the catalyst for their defensive turnaround and not the guy who was putting up DPOY-level production in those games? C'mon. As I said earlier, the trade made sense at the time. In hindsight, it's easy to say it was a bad move because the Seahawks fell apart. They were chasing a Super Bowl and felt they had a window.

One could easily say our Brandin Cooks trade was a bad move using the same hindsight. If we had kept our 1st round pick, the three WRs who went after our pick in order were D.J. Moore, Calvin Ridley, and Courtland Sutton. But I would vehemently disagree with any person who said that it was a bad trade when we made it.

Dunlap is a rotational pass rusher and, yep, I'll make the argument that he impacted their defense.
QB pressure and helping a defense find its shape are important things. Dunlap helped with both of those.
Von Miller's raw stats don't look great.. but it's interesting how well that front has produced since he arrived, for example.

And, unfortunately, those first three games of last season exist.

So.. catalyst? Nope, sorry.

In addition to Dunlap, you had players like Jordyn Brooks figuring it out. One look at Ernest Jones for the Rams shows you what a difference that can make.

It was a bad move at the time, mocked by many, including me, and will be a bad move going forward. A safety who can't make a difference in the passing game is not worth near what they paid in draft picks and then in salary.

You'll want to minimize Dunlap's impact, I get it.. but I'm not making it up, nor am I the only one who saw it...

5 Reasons Why Seahawks' Defense Will Be Vastly Improved in 2021

Seattle will not enter a new season without question marks on defense, especially after losing two key starters this offseason. But when considering offseason additions up front, the presence of several promising young players, and flexible personnel at all three levels, the team should be...

www.si.com

"Once Carlos Dunlap arrived, however, every player on Seattle's defensive front elevated their games. The veteran end contributed 5.0 sacks in eight games, including a game-clinching fourth down sack against Kyler Murray in Week 11. His presence galvanized the entire unit, as Jarran Reed produced 5.5 sacks after he arrived and Benson Mayowa found his rhythm with 4.0 sacks in the final six games. As a team, with Adams continuing to wreak havoc in addition to much-improved front line play spearheaded by Dunlap, the Seahawks led all NFL teams with 34 sacks in the final nine games of the regular season."

So... Here's the thing... Adams can make an impact, if used correctly.
The problem is that his "being used correctly" doesn't match up with the most high leverage moments on defense. Teams know they'll go at him if he's in coverage.. or that he's blitzing.

I'll just say it again... a safety who isn't elite in coverage isn't an elite safety in the NFL at this point. And only an elite player would be worth what they paid.

 

[Merlin]

I continually hope that people will be able to admit they're wrong and I allow that to suck me in sometimes.

It's fascinating to me that someone could say that trade made sense at the time but the trade for Stafford did not. Does not compute.

It is undeniable that he helped that defense. But for myself I feel like you can get a good box safety every year round 2 on into midrounds at times. So the cost was prohibitive. Using hindsight I think it was a mistake.

That said it was the Rams putting pressure on them that created the decision. Pressure isn't limited to just QBs in its ability to force errors.

 

[Ellard80]

this is from last year: The 25-year-old earned a lackluster 62.7 Pro Football Focus grade which ranked 52nd out of all safeties in the NFL. His 52.5 coverage grade was even worse ranking 78th out of just 93 qualifiers at his position. Adams missed four games during the season due to a groin injury.

Sorry in no universe is that worth 1st round picks.

 

[jacktheripper85]

This asshat actually compares himself to Aaron Donald (which is sacrilegious) and Tom Brady. As I mentioned in an earlier post this guy is a colossal asshole and his teammates can’t stand him. Bad trade by the Seahawks in a lot of ways. This guy will never be a winner-he’s too interested in himself and already thinks he should be in the HOF.

 

[TexasRam]

fwiw, i feel its worth mentioning the rams had 19 rushing tds last year to 9 this year currently. how much of that is because mcvay didnt trust goff near the redzone but trusts stafford, who knows but it certainly gonna make the numbers look worse

Sullivan and Saffold were dominant run blockers, people forget that. You also had a 24 year old 2nd year QB and Kupp out half the year. Not to mention Gurley who was simply an elite Goal line RB.

It made sense to run the ball at the goaline. It’s less risky. We were the #2 run offense. We would commonly spread a defense out with the end arounds to WR’s and then run Gurley either off tackle behind Pro Bowler Whitworth or right behind Sullivan and Saffold.

Now we have an older Whitworth, inferior interior run blockers, No Gurley and a healthy Kupp.

It’s not rocket science. When your run game is dominant you run the ball in for the score.

2018: 33 ppg
2021 27.7 ppg (with Kupp)

The 2018 team was a juggernaut. Even with a gimpy Gurley we ran the ball down The Cowboys throats breaking run game records in the process.

 

[RAMSinLA]

I think it was worth it. I'm enjoying this season. The Rams are legit and its because of the QB as much as anyone else. I hope they make it to the big game but even if they don't its been a fun exciting season watching this Rams team.

 

[Steve808]

View attachment 50797View attachment 50797

This asshat actually compares himself to Aaron Donald (which is sacrilegious) and Tom Brady. As I mentioned in an earlier post this guy is a colossal asshole and his teammates can’t stand him. Bad trade by the Seahawks in a lot of ways. This guy will never be a winner-he’s too interested in himself and already thinks he should be in the HOF.

Well, if the Jaguars offered the Rams their entire 2022 draft plus a few more first rounders, we'd have to consider trading AD.

J/K

 

[jrry32]

Could it be since that time that teams figured out that Adams couldn't cover their dead Grandma? And that is one reason why in this day and age you don't trade 2 first rounders for a box safety?

And it's no comparison to trading for an elite cover CB, who is also physical in the run game.

Except for the fact that Adams excelled in coverage when Gregg Williams was using him as a robber and TE eraser. If you want to criticize the Seahawks, criticize them for trading two firsts for an All Pro and then not playing to his strengths. Adams's coverage numbers (and PFF grades for the people who put stock in that) in his final two years with the Jets were outstanding. And it wasn't because teams weren't smart enough to target him.

In 2018, offenses targeted him 60 times. He allowed only 55% of those targets to be completed for 6.8 yards per attempt, had 12 PDs, and had a passer rating against of 74.7. In 2019 (his final year with the Jets), teams targeted him 38 times for 4.9 yards per attempt (55.3% completion% against), he had 7 PDs, and had a passer rating against of only 75.2. What seems more likely to you, Adams suddenly forgot how to cover after the trade or the Seahawks failed to use him in ways that played to his strengths in coverage?

I remember when we signed Robert Woods making a post about how we were getting a better player than his production showed. I discussed his route running and how the Bills's scheme and QB play failed to play to his strengths. Y'all are making the same mistake as the people who called the Woods's signing stupid and an overpay. Jamal Adams is very arguably the best safety in the NFL when a team is playing to his strengths. It's not his fault that the Seahawks aren't doing that with their pass defense. It would be like having Aaron Donald two-gap. Would be monumentally stupid.

 

[Steve808]

Except for the fact that Adams excelled in coverage when Gregg Williams was using him as a robber and TE eraser. If you want to criticize the Seahawks, criticize them for trading two firsts for an All Pro and then not playing to his strengths. Adams's coverage numbers (and PFF grades for the people who put stock in that) in his final two years with the Jets were outstanding. And it wasn't because teams weren't smart enough to target him.

In 2018, offenses targeted him 60 times. He allowed only 55% of those targets to be completed for 6.8 yards per attempt, had 12 PDs, and had a passer rating against of 74.7. In 2019 (his final year with the Jets), teams targeted him 38 times for 4.9 yards per attempt (55.3% completion% against), he had 7 PDs, and had a passer rating against of only 75.2. What seems more likely to you, Adams suddenly forgot how to cover after the trade or the Seahawks failed to use him in ways that played to his strengths in coverage?

I remember when we signed Robert Woods making a post about how we were getting a better player than his production showed. I discussed his route running and how the Bills's scheme and QB play failed to play to his strengths. Y'all are making the same mistake as the people who called the Woods's signing stupid and an overpay. Jamal Adams is very arguably the best safety in the NFL when a team is playing to his strengths. It's not his fault that the Seahawks aren't doing that with their pass defense. It would be like having Aaron Donald two-gap. Would be monumentally stupid.

Thankfully it's Ken Norton and the she pigeons that aren't using his skills properly.

 

[Kupped]

Except for the fact that Adams excelled in coverage when Gregg Williams was using him as a robber and TE eraser. If you want to criticize the Seahawks, criticize them for trading two firsts for an All Pro and then not playing to his strengths. Adams's coverage numbers (and PFF grades for the people who put stock in that) in his final two years with the Jets were outstanding. And it wasn't because teams weren't smart enough to target him.

In 2018, offenses targeted him 60 times. He allowed only 55% of those targets to be completed for 6.8 yards per attempt, had 12 PDs, and had a passer rating against of 74.7. In 2019 (his final year with the Jets), teams targeted him 38 times for 4.9 yards per attempt (55.3% completion% against), he had 7 PDs, and had a passer rating against of only 75.2. What seems more likely to you, Adams suddenly forgot how to cover after the trade or the Seahawks failed to use him in ways that played to his strengths in coverage?

I remember when we signed Robert Woods making a post about how we were getting a better player than his production showed. I discussed his route running and how the Bills's scheme and QB play failed to play to his strengths. Y'all are making the same mistake as the people who called the Woods's signing stupid and an overpay. Jamal Adams is very arguably the best safety in the NFL when a team is playing to his strengths. It's not his fault that the Seahawks aren't doing that with their pass defense. It would be like having Aaron Donald two-gap. Would be monumentally stupid.

I love that you double down all the way to ... "arguably the very best safety in the NFL".

Hmmmm do hyper-aggressive players sometimes wear down and lose effectiveness rapidly?
Well.. yeah.
Also.. in 2019 on the Jets.. he was targeted 33 times and there were 20 completions... 60%... and, again.. 1 int and 7 passes defended.
I didn't watch enough of the 2019 Jets to contextualize what Adams did. That's not being snarky. Some of those numbers look good!!

I guess the Seahawks didn't know what they were getting and that's why he had a career high in sacks in 2020? Again.. interesting stuff.. but the coverage issues prevent him from elite in my book.

You want to blame Carroll? Fine. I blame the guy I watch in coverage who can't pick up and track the ball and has 4 interceptions in 5 career seasons.

 

[SeminoleRam]

Well,This might have already been stated and if so I apologize but in my Personal (Nobody Cares!) Opinion Goff took the Rams to the Super Bowl so I think McVay traded for Stafford to win the Super Bowl!

So, To me the trade will only be worth it if Stafford wins a Super Bowl as a Ram!!!

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Well,This might have already been stated and if so I apologize but in my Personal (Nobody Cares!) Opinion Goff took the Rams to the Super Bowl so I think McVay traded for Stafford to win the Super Bowl!

So, To me the trade will only be worth it if Stafford wins a Super Bowl as a Ram!!!

Which I can understand, my problem is I’ve rewatched the SB enough times to conclude, Goff wasn’t the problem, in fact he played well considering Bellicheat took McVay to the woodshed, he hung in and actually made some pretty decent throws in the face of incredible pressure that may have changed things had they been caught (and I’ve already heard the rebuttals, agree to disagree)

My take on Stafford is he has the look sometimes of the 33yr old QB with high mileage, especially when he “gingerly“ runs for the 1st down marker (reminds me of an old Namath or Stabler) not sure how many years he has left in the tank, I’d be happy with 2 at the same current level (which is a notch down from say 5 years ago)

Probably not going to be a popular take, just calling it as I see it

 

[jrry32]

I love that you double down all the way to ... "arguably the very best safety in the NFL".

Jamal Adams was a First Team All Pro Safety in 2019. Minkah Fitzpatrick was the other. That means, according to the All Pro team, he was a top 2 safety in the NFL that year. And if you care about PFF grades (I don't), he was barely edged out for the #1 safety spot over the 2018 and 2019 seasons by Anthony Harris, despite Adams playing a lot more snaps.

Examining Jamal Adams' value and potential landing spots

Jamal Adams reportedly requested a trade from the New York Jets late last week. Here, PFF breaks down his value and looks at some landing spots for the two-time Pro Bowler.

www.pff.com

Hmmmm do hyper-aggressive players sometimes wear down and lose effectiveness rapidly?
Well.. yeah.
Also.. in 2019 on the Jets.. he was targeted 33 times and there were 20 completions... 60%... and, again.. 1 int and 7 passes defended.
I didn't watch enough of the 2019 Jets to contextualize what Adams did. That's not being snarky. Some of those numbers look good!!

No, the numbers I cited are correct. They're from Pro Football Reference.

Jamal Adams Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Jamal Adams. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Do hyper-aggressive players who have worn down usually produce better in other ways during the period they wore down?

I guess the Seahawks didn't know what they were getting and that's why he had a career high in sacks in 2020? Again.. interesting stuff.. but the coverage issues prevent him from elite in my book.

I didn't criticize how they used him as a blitzer in 2020. I criticized how they used him in coverage.

You want to blame Carroll? Fine. I blame the guy I watch in coverage who can't pick up and track the ball and has 4 interceptions in 5 career seasons.

I don't judge DB's effectiveness based on interceptions. And I'll blame the coaches who aren't putting him in the right positions to maximize his ability. Remember when Todd Gurley went from one of the NFL's least effective HBs to a MVP candidate? Do you think Gurley was just a sucky player in 2016 and decided not to be sucky in 2017?

 

[snackdaddy]

View attachment 50797View attachment 50797

This asshat actually compares himself to Aaron Donald (which is sacrilegious) and Tom Brady. As I mentioned in an earlier post this guy is a colossal asshole and his teammates can’t stand him. Bad trade by the Seahawks in a lot of ways. This guy will never be a winner-he’s too interested in himself and already thinks he should be in the HOF.

Lol, the seahag fans are hating that trade. He doesn't make the impact Ramsey does. And he gets hurt. Their pick will probably be a top ten pick for the Jets. I'll laugh even more if the 49ers have a losing season with Trey Lance next year and the Dolphins have a top ten pick.

 

[Kupped]

Jamal Adams was a First Team All Pro Safety in 2019. Minkah Fitzpatrick was the other. That means, according to the All Pro team, he was a top 2 safety in the NFL that year. And if you care about PFF grades (I don't), he was barely edged out for the #1 safety spot over the 2018 and 2019 seasons by Anthony Harris, despite Adams playing a lot more snaps.

Examining Jamal Adams' value and potential landing spots

Jamal Adams reportedly requested a trade from the New York Jets late last week. Here, PFF breaks down his value and looks at some landing spots for the two-time Pro Bowler.

www.pff.com

No, the numbers I cited are correct. They're from Pro Football Reference.

Jamal Adams Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Jamal Adams. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Do hyper-aggressive players who have worn down usually produce better in other ways during the period they wore down?



I didn't criticize how they used him as a blitzer in 2020. I criticized how they used him in coverage.


I don't judge DB's effectiveness based on interceptions. And I'll blame the coaches who aren't putting him in the right positions to maximize his ability. Remember when Todd Gurley went from one of the NFL's least effective HBs to a MVP candidate? Do you think Gurley was just a sucky player in 2016 and decided not to be sucky in 2017?

I don't look at players as what they were, I look at them as what they are. On that note.. look at Fitzpatrick this year...
So.. did Pittsburgh forget how they were using him? Or is he not playing as well?
Because he has that in common with Adams.. that his numbers are really bad this year.
Fitzpatrick was also a guy who you could line up in coverage on a WR. He also has a lot more Ints.

Great that you don't care about Ints and passes defensed.. I do, and so do many people who look at effectiveness in coverage.

Maybe Williams was really able to make him look great in his system. Maybe Adams is great and I'm all wrong. What I see when I watch him in coverage is a guy who can't track the ball and can't stay with targets.

I agree coaches can be the difference in players' performance. But I see too many gaps in Adams in coverage to consider him elite in this day and age.

If I'm spending a first on a safety, it's a guy who's a difference maker in the pass game. I don't see that with Adams.

If I'm giving up 2 firsts for a player, it's going to be for an elite or top level performer at a premium value position. That doesn't describe Adams to me.

 

[FrantikRam]

Jamal Adams was a First Team All Pro Safety in 2019. Minkah Fitzpatrick was the other. That means, according to the All Pro team, he was a top 2 safety in the NFL that year. And if you care about PFF grades (I don't), he was barely edged out for the #1 safety spot over the 2018 and 2019 seasons by Anthony Harris, despite Adams playing a lot more snaps.

Examining Jamal Adams' value and potential landing spots

Jamal Adams reportedly requested a trade from the New York Jets late last week. Here, PFF breaks down his value and looks at some landing spots for the two-time Pro Bowler.

www.pff.com

No, the numbers I cited are correct. They're from Pro Football Reference.

Jamal Adams Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Jamal Adams. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Do hyper-aggressive players who have worn down usually produce better in other ways during the period they wore down?



I didn't criticize how they used him as a blitzer in 2020. I criticized how they used him in coverage.


I don't judge DB's effectiveness based on interceptions. And I'll blame the coaches who aren't putting him in the right positions to maximize his ability. Remember when Todd Gurley went from one of the NFL's least effective HBs to a MVP candidate? Do you think Gurley was just a sucky player in 2016 and decided not to be sucky in 2017?

It's also possible that he just regressed.

When the ball is in the air, scheme goes out the window. He's rarely made plays or shows well in coverage since becoming a Seahawk. We've benefitted first hand from his poor coverage when Tyler Higbee beat him for a TD this year.