Rams’ offensive line problem isn’t as bad as it looks

[PARAM]

There's usually a disconnect between what fans think is the #1 priority and what the teams feels is the #1 priority. What did we think was priority 1 in 2017? WR? OL? TE? We got Everett in the 2nd and though he's yet to realize his full potential, most of the hot TE's from that class seem to be in the same boat. OJ Howard? Evan Engram? Have they realized their potential? Engram had a great rookie season and he's had 89 receptions for 1044 yard with 6 TDs in 2018-19. Everett? 70-728, 5 TDs. Not huge difference for a 1st round pick (#23) and a 2nd round pick (#44).

How about WRs? In 2017 Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross, Zay Jones, Curtis Samuel, JuJu and Kupp were the first 7 off the board. JuJu (#62) and Kupp (#69) are #1 and #2 and there's not a huge seperation between the 2. But there is a significant seperation between them and the 5 guys taken ahead of them. As far as O lineman go, we weren't going to get one of the top 4 or 5 tackles in the draft so are #6-#10 any better than our youngsters? Offensive center seemed a need to us. They passed on some guys who many thought we had to have. Reminds me of a guy who thought Forrest Lamp was our biggest mistake. We had to have him back in the 2017 draft. What has he done and where is he now.

Moral? We don't know as much as we think we do but some of those NFL guys are pretty smart.

 

[den-the-coach]

We’ve also seen when he takes additional job responsibilities to OL coach it suffers. He’s just coaching the OL this year.

That's a great point and I know we have discussed that in previous threads, but this is huge as with the addition of Kevin O'Connell as Offensive Coordinator, it not only reduces the load on McVay, but frees up Kromer to focus more on the Offensive Line, which should improve the unit overall.

 

[Loyal]

Seems to me that replacing Gurley and Cooks was far more important to McVay than we knew. This offense needs production from RB#1 and clearly Henderson isnt that. RB's can make immediate impact and DH did not do that. He looked lost in pre-season, there were stories about his study/work habits and he had issues in pass pro.
I guess my point is had we known (which of course you never would) that RB#1 and WR were the top 2 priorities, and that Akers and Jeff were the #1 guys on the board, then look at #84 and on tell me who they missed on? If the guys on the board arent any higher ceiling than Noteboom, Havenstein, Blythe, then why pick them?
I think I may be one of Kromer's biggest critics, but clearly the Rams have a 180 opinion on him. They purged the coaching staff, and kept the guy who's unit performed amongst the worst. Puzzling. Now they went thru an entire draft an picked 1 guy for the o-line. Right or wrong, time will tell, but it sure seems pretty obvious what horse is being backed here

slack jawed, free cat homer


View: https://i.imgur.com/sRCUKYR.jpg?1

 

[Malibu]

I'm not prepared to give up on Kromer just yet.

I was as unhappy as anyone with the o-line play last year, but I just think we have to be careful in assuming we fully understand what happened within the organization to contribute to that result.

Not clear to me that Kromer assured McVay that the line would be good, much less be good under any or all adverse circumstances. He was very careful in choosing his words when assessing them at the beginning of the year. I don't remember hearing any grand promises. Kromer knew and pretty much stated that the lineup at the start of the season was a work in progress which needed time to gell.

They didn't get it. The Rams instead had a lot of injuries--- Noteboom, Allen, Havenstein, etc.-- that really compromised the line play last year. When you include the loss of loss of Saffold and Sullivan with the injury to Havenstein, they lost three starters. Not a great situation for any coach.

Also not clear that Kromer wasn't asking for reinforcements. The Rams elected to sign Fowler instead of Saffold-- I doubt Kromer advocated that. My take is that McVay gave Phillips and the D priority. Is that Kromer's fault? Snead and McVay set the FA and draft priorities, not the o line coach. They finally got Corbett, but it was pretty late in the day for help last year.

The Rams also didn't use their top picks on the line last year. The mid round guys they did get, Evans and Edwards, both showed some promise when thrown into the breach. They appear to be solid draft picks and there is a chance that they play well this year. However, starting them over more experienced players, until there was no choice, would probably have been roundly denounced as a poor decision.

I think we need to look at last year at least in part as an organizational failure for which McVay shares responsibility because he controls the allocation of resources. Kromer can be blamed for his coaching choices but I don't see where he had any silver bullets to avoid injuries or improve the roster. And those imo were the main problems.

Let's see what Kromer does this year. (We have no choice anyway.) If the o-line is terrible again you can remind us all you were right.

Why do you think it will not be the same this year.

Noteboom is coming off a really bad injury and he wasn't good as a starter. Allen is coming off an injury and he sucked. Big Rob came off if injury. Shelton is a failed SF PS guy not worth much. Cleveland hated Corbett so much they basically gave up on him and he was the 33rd pick in the draft a couple years ago. Ok he was good in pass pro but run blocking sucked. Edwards and Blythe were marginal. Evans at RT was good in pass pro but got help but he too wasn't good in the run game.

So my big question is with all these recouperating injuries combined marginal play why was there no real shakeup?

It is unrealistic to think the line is going to go out and dominate. Remember what people forget is the last five games we had the same lineup in McVay was forced to keep 7 and sometimes 8 to block that is not McVays offense he is a spread them out longer developing plays, play action off of a solid run offense.

 

[Malibu]

There's usually a disconnect between what fans think is the #1 priority and what the teams feels is the #1 priority. What did we think was priority 1 in 2017? WR? OL? TE? We got Everett in the 2nd and though he's yet to realize his full potential, most of the hot TE's from that class seem to be in the same boat. OJ Howard? Evan Engram? Have they realized their potential? Engram had a great rookie season and he's had 89 receptions for 1044 yard with 6 TDs in 2018-19. Everett? 70-728, 5 TDs. Not huge difference for a 1st round pick (#23) and a 2nd round pick (#44).

How about WRs? In 2017 Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross, Zay Jones, Curtis Samuel, JuJu and Kupp were the first 7 off the board. JuJu (#62) and Kupp (#69) are #1 and #2 and there's not a huge seperation between the 2. But there is a significant seperation between them and the 5 guys taken ahead of them. As far as O lineman go, we weren't going to get one of the top 4 or 5 tackles in the draft so are #6-#10 any better than our youngsters? Offensive center seemed a need to us. They passed on some guys who many thought we had to have. Reminds me of a guy who thought Forrest Lamp was our biggest mistake. We had to have him back in the 2017 draft. What has he done and where is he now.

Moral? We don't know as much as we think we do but some of those NFL guys are pretty smart.

The counter is stats don't lie and it is not one stat it is a multitude. The line was 31st and the previous two years it was too 3. Rbs gained 1.1 less per carry. RV experienced first contact previously 3' last year the first contact was at 6" on average.

The biggest misnomer about the line was the injuries. When those players especially Allen and Noteboom were in they sucked prior to injuries.

By getting Founette he would be a huge upgrade over Akers/Henderson and Brown. He would have freed up the #52 pick as well. I like Akers but to me the priority on this team was first fixing the line, second findings q replacement for Littleton and third adding a OLB assuming a trade for Fournette.

The Rams will go only as far as the oline takes us period.

We will see I hope I am not saying I told you so.

 

[PARAM]

The counter is stats don't lie and it is not one stat it is a multitude. The line was 31st and the previous two years it was too 3. Rbs gained 1.1 less per carry. RV experienced first contact previously 3' last year the first contact was at 6" on average.

The biggest misnomer about the line was the injuries. When those players especially Allen and Noteboom were in they sucked prior to injuries.

By getting Founette he would be a huge upgrade over Akers/Henderson and Brown. He would have freed up the #52 pick as well. I like Akers but to me the priority on this team was first fixing the line, second findings q replacement for Littleton and third adding a OLB assuming a trade for Fournette.

The Rams will go only as far as the oline takes us period.

We will see I hope I am not saying I told you so.

The line's stats were horrible and while Noteboom was in there they weren't very good. Did you expect them to be #3 OL the first 6 weeks of the season? I didn't, especially with no preseason reps for the two youngsters. But....too late....he goes down and now they're breaking in Edwards. Allen goes down and then they're breaking Corbett. Hav goes down and they're breaking in Evans. Saying "the biggest misnomer about the line was injuries" is a common refrain from fans who wanted OL help in the draft. I think the biggest misnomer is the "injuries had very little to do with their lack of success". Meaning it was mostly a lack of talent.

And yet, despite that lack of talent, despite the 3 season ending injuries, our offense was #7 in yards and #11 in scoring. So they musta done something right, eh?

I would think a head coach and his GM, having a front and center look at the personnel, if they didn't see progress or talent with who they have, they would have made selections to improve it. After all, their future is directly affected by the success of the team and if it's true, as I and many believe, it all starts up front, how do we explain our current situation? They're ignorant to the issues? They're dumb? They're going to roll with a bunch of bums?

On Fournette, I'm glad they didn't go that route.

Like you say, we will see.

 

[Merlin]

31st ranked Oline in the league and to start the season Kroner and McVay were fine going into the season with them. Let that sink in. They were good with that Oline and it turned out like shit. It would have been even worse if it was Goff's knee that got crunched by Allen, or Demby. I don't understand how anyone can trust Kromer 's evaluation after that. Did you see how bad some of them played? And the top back up was Demby. Do you think Kroner went into last season saying, " This Offensive line is going to be bad. " ? He thought they'd be good.

This is where quality of your GM factors in as well as the quality of his leadership and ability to lead the organization.

Snead strikes me as a "buddy" type GM for a head coach. He'll align his staff and scouts to prioritize whatever the staff wants and he's aggressive and willing to take shots when the roster looks good. He also has a great feel for stacking a board accurately and anticipating where guys will go and what teams will take, as proven by their ability to find the guys they want at value. But his weakness is he doesn't have the long term view for the roster. He knows damn well Whit is a big risk and that it's unclear who replaces him, but he couldn't bring himself to prioritize finding a LT of the future because he was busy helping Sean get what he and the staff wanted prioritized for this season.

And I'm not totally against that or anything. I just am on your side of the fence where I recognize a great OL makes everyone better, and I also know we don't have a great OL right now. In fact if I were to put a ceiling on this unit right now I would say their best would be around that top third (10th) in the run game (Whit, Edwards, Corbett, and Hav are all good run blockers), and around middle of the pack (15th) at best in pass pro (Whit and maybe Edwards are capable of grading out very well here). And that's ceiling.

So for me when I imagine them playing the 9ers or one of multiple contenders with good front sevens it's hard to see big success. In fact I expect more of what we saw in 2019, which is inconsistency after the run game is shut down.

The good thing though... IF the line finishes 10th-ish in run efficiency and 15th-ish in pass pro we will make the playoffs. So there's that.

And back to Snead... This season is his Waterloo. He'll either be Napoleon (the line struggles) or the Duke of Wellingham (they make playoffs). If this team misses the playoffs again we will 100% see a new GM. How do I know that? Well, they're not gonna blame McVay or Demoff. Sorry Les.

Last but not least the worst part of losing due to the OL, if it happens, is that it will erode McVay's standing even further as a "genius" and might cause our iffy leadership (Demoff) to lose sight of how fortunate they are to have that young HC running their team. And him eventually down the road leaving for an organization who will Belichick his ass with the right guys around him in the front office. So of course I am hoping for Les to play the role of Wellingham here. This is a really crucial season for us IMO.

 

[oldnotdead]

Well, it looks like since the Rams couldn't move Havenstein, they are going to trot him out again at RT. This probably means Edwards stays out at RG and Evans moves to the bench. His restructure probably means he plays RT for 2 more years, though that isn't a given. He still will have a manageable dead cap next year if he self destructs. Havenstein has always been a typical run blocking RT, most of whom struggle in pass protection.

The impact of this is the Rams MUST run the ball better this year. The move to a more ball control oriented offense should help the o-line decreasing the time Jared has to hold the ball. This is where the impact of Jefferson comes in and why I think he will be a day 1 replacement for Cooks. Both Kupp and now Jefferson excel at getting open quickly which won't expose Goff's protection with those slow developing plays. A strong run attack plays to Rob's strength. With a more reliable RG besides him, it should also help Rob in the passing game as well.

Hopefully, it all plays out well this year though I have my doubts. The other teams in the division know Rob and Austin were the weak links in the o-line last year. Each of them shifted their primary pass rush threat to the right when facing the Rams on passing downs. I'm sure that will continue. This is why it's key that the Rams run well and IMO that means a strong attack between the tackles. Right now from all indications, this is what the starting o-line looks like. My concern is an aging Whitworth who clearly showed decline last year and of course Havenstein. Goff needs to stop holding the ball and make quick throws. I think McVay will help him with an improved ball control oriented pass attack. Hopefully, they won't leave Rob on an island at RT and will cover him with a TE on passing downs.

LT Whitworth
LG Corbett
C Allen
RG Edwards
RT Havenstein

New CBA rules dictate a minimum 8 active o- line on game day. Swing OT Evans, OT/OG Brewer, C Blythe or Shelton

 

[OldSchool]

Well, it looks like since the Rams couldn't move Havenstein, they are going to trot him out again at RT. This probably means Edwards stays out at RG and Evans moves to the bench. His restructure probably means he plays RT for 2 more years, though that isn't a given. He still will have a manageable dead cap next year if he self destructs. Havenstein has always been a typical run blocking RT, most of whom struggle in pass protection.

The impact of this is the Rams MUST run the ball better this year. The move to a more ball control oriented offense should help the o-line decreasing the time Jared has to hold the ball. This is where the impact of Jefferson comes in and why I think he will be a day 1 replacement for Cooks. Both Kupp and now Jefferson excel at getting open quickly which won't expose Goff's protection with those slow developing plays. A strong run attack plays to Rob's strength. With a more reliable RG besides him, it should also help Rob in the passing game as well.

Hopefully, it all plays out well this year though I have my doubts. The other teams in the division know Rob and Austin were the weak links in the o-line last year. Each of them shifted their primary pass rush threat to the right when facing the Rams on passing downs. I'm sure that will continue. This is why it's key that the Rams run well and IMO that means a strong attack between the tackles. Right now from all indications, this is what the starting o-line looks like. My concern is an aging Whitworth who clearly showed decline last year and of course Havenstein. Goff needs to stop holding the ball and make quick throws. I think McVay will help him with an improved ball control oriented pass attack. Hopefully, they won't leave Rob on an island at RT and will cover him with a TE on passing downs.

LT Whitworth
LG Corbett
C Allen
RG Edwards
RT Havenstein

New CBA rules dictate a minimum 8 active o- line on game day. Swing OT Evans, OT/OG Brewer, C Blythe or Shelton

So you're assuming that they tried to trade him in the first place? Interesting assumption.

 

[PARAM]

This is where quality of your GM factors in as well as the quality of his leadership and ability to lead the organization.

Snead strikes me as a "buddy" type GM for a head coach. He'll align his staff and scouts to prioritize whatever the staff wants and he's aggressive and willing to take shots when the roster looks good. He also has a great feel for stacking a board accurately and anticipating where guys will go and what teams will take, as proven by their ability to find the guys they want at value. But his weakness is he doesn't have the long term view for the roster. He knows damn well Whit is a big risk and that it's unclear who replaces him, but he couldn't bring himself to prioritize finding a LT of the future because he was busy helping Sean get what he and the staff wanted prioritized for this season.

'

Isn't that the way current GM's do their job? They're paired with the HC, sometimes picked by the head coach and their job is "get the players, or type of players the head coach wants or feels he needs". Their job isn't to pick players who will help their team for a decade or more. That type of thinking went out once the ramifications of the salary cap became a reality. Who's picking a guy who they foresee to be on their team in a decade, unless it's a QB, P or PK? Hell the head coach wants his type of guys so he can win and retain his job. He doesn't want to play with a bunch of guys who are going to help his replacement.

On a side note: A funny thing about this draft. There were 47 offensive lineman drafted, a 10 year high. So apparently NFL teams evaluated more lineman draft worthy than they did the last decade. So for those who believe OL was a huge need for the Rams, they were there for the taking. They just weren't the priority we thought.

 

[FarNorth]

Why do you think it will not be the same this year.

Noteboom is coming off a really bad injury and he wasn't good as a starter. Allen is coming off an injury and he sucked. Big Rob came off if injury. Shelton is a failed SF PS guy not worth much. Cleveland hated Corbett so much they basically gave up on him and he was the 33rd pick in the draft a couple years ago. Ok he was good in pass pro but run blocking sucked. Edwards and Blythe were marginal. Evans at RT was good in pass pro but got help but he too wasn't good in the run game.

So my big question is with all these recouperating injuries combined marginal play why was there no real shakeup?

It is unrealistic to think the line is going to go out and dominate. Remember what people forget is the last five games we had the same lineup in McVay was forced to keep 7 and sometimes 8 to block that is not McVays offense he is a spread them out longer developing plays, play action off of a solid run offense.

Hopefully it may not be the same because:

-- We are not replacing two established starters (Saffold and Sullivan) out of the gate with two almost totally inexperienced starters (Noteboom and Allen).

-- (Fingers crossed) Hopefully we do not lose another established starter (Havenstein) to injury later.

-- (God willing) Hopefully we do not lose two new starters early on to season ending injuries.

-- Havenstein is coming back healthy (according to McVay comment after Day 2; suggests to me Rams expect him to return to form).

-- Our 2018 3d and 5th round picks Evans and Edwards got significant playing time and showed some promise; should be better in year 2.

-- Corbett will have a chance to learn the Rams system, will compete at guard, and could potentially compete at center. He may turn out to be the Pillsbury Dough Boy but we don't know that until he gets a chance to compete after a full preseason (whatever that may look like this year).

-- At some point Allen and Noteboom will come back, probably as reserves, but it helps to have reserves. Allen didn't look great last year but it was a small sample size. Noteboom will probably never play guard again but could be a very useful backup at tackle.

--The biggest single thing for the o-line is continuity. If the line stays healthy with Whitworth Evans Edwards Havenstein as starters getting playing time together they could be solid. We'll see about center, but Blythe at least knows the job and maybe Corbett can overtake him.

--No one said anything about domination. Right now we just need the line to be competent: protect Goff enough that he isn't constantly on the run or on his back; know and not blow assignments; pick up blitzes consistently; not get beat immediately after the snap and at least put up a fight; and open enough holes in zone schemes either inside or outside for Akers to find holes. (Akers looks to me like he will be better than Gurley at squeezing through small inside holes.) That level of competence would be a big improvement.

 

[Merlin]

Isn't that the way current GM's do their job? They're paired with the HC, sometimes picked by the head coach and their job is "get the players, or type of players the head coach wants or feels he needs". Their job isn't to pick players who will help their team for a decade or more. That type of thinking went out once the ramifications of the salary cap became a reality. Who's picking a guy who they foresee to be on their team in a decade, unless it's a QB, P or PK? Hell the head coach wants his type of guys so he can win and retain his job. He doesn't want to play with a bunch of guys who are going to help his replacement.

On a side note: A funny thing about this draft. There were 47 offensive lineman drafted, a 10 year high. So apparently NFL teams evaluated more lineman draft worthy than they did the last decade. So for those who believe OL was a huge need for the Rams, they were there for the taking. They just weren't the priority we thought.

I think a lot of the new guard do their jobs that way yeah. Just like you have new HCs who are more and more getting in with the players vice the old authoritarian style.

But I also think it's important to remember that McVay is a young head coach. He's brilliant, he's got a deep knowledge probably of both sides of the ball and it's growing quickly, and he has a first 3 year run that is unbelievable in number of wins. So is the GM a guy who can say "Sean I get that you want to do X, however let's look a year or two down the road at how this roster will look."

Just pointing out that the GM position historically looks out over time. The coach, and rightly so, is only worried about his ass in the next season. So you gotta have both IMO. I do like the guy but not sold he's the GM for a team who wants to contend annually.

 

[nighttrain]

Hopefully it may not be the same because:

-- We are not replacing two established starters (Saffold and Sullivan) out of the gate with two almost totally inexperienced starters (Noteboom and Allen).

-- (Fingers crossed) Hopefully we do not lose another established starter (Havenstein) to injury later.

-- (God willing) Hopefully we do not lose two new starters early on to season ending injuries.

-- Havenstein is coming back healthy (according to McVay comment after Day 2; suggests to me Rams expect him to return to form).

-- Our 2018 3d and 5th round picks Evans and Edwards got significant playing time and showed some promise; should be better in year 2.

-- Corbett will have a chance to learn the Rams system, will compete at guard, and could potentially compete at center. He may turn out to be the Pillsbury Dough Boy but we don't know that until he gets a chance to compete after a full preseason (whatever that may look like this year).

-- At some point Allen and Noteboom will come back, probably as reserves, but it helps to have reserves. Allen didn't look great last year but it was a small sample size. Noteboom will probably never play guard again but could be a very useful backup at tackle.

--The biggest single thing for the o-line is continuity. If the line stays healthy with Whitworth Evans Edwards Havenstein as starters getting playing time together they could be solid. We'll see about center, but Blythe at least knows the job and maybe Corbett can overtake him.

--No one said anything about domination. Right now we just need the line to be competent: protect Goff enough that he isn't constantly on the run or on his back; know and not blow assignments; pick up blitzes consistently; not get beat immediately after the snap and at least put up a fight; and open enough holes in zone schemes either inside or outside for Akers to find holes. (Akers looks to me like he will be better than Gurley at squeezing through small inside holes.) That level of competence would be a big improvement.

very good and nice insight
train

 

[PARAM]

Absolutely. And we were one of those.

 

[PARAM]

I think a lot of the new guard do their jobs that way yeah. Just like you have new HCs who are more and more getting in with the players vice the old authoritarian style.

But I also think it's important to remember that McVay is a young head coach. He's brilliant, he's got a deep knowledge probably of both sides of the ball and it's growing quickly, and he has a first 3 year run that is unbelievable in number of wins. So is the GM a guy who can say "Sean I get that you want to do X, however let's look a year or two down the road at how this roster will look."

Just pointing out that the GM position historically looks out over time. The coach, and rightly so, is only worried about his ass in the next season. So you gotta have both IMO. I do like the guy but not sold he's the GM for a team who wants to contend annually.

Well I'm certainly not saying "they don't look to keep a good base for the future". They do. McVay included. He's not naive and thinking of only this year and next. But reality is, in this day and age, how many guys can you project to keep long term? We're facing at least a couple of decisions next year.....Kupp and Reynolds being free agents, Everett being a free agent. Of course we can guess what the right moves are but that's the point. You are not going to keep many guys beyond their original contract. They'll want more money and just as important, a chance to be a #1 if they're a #2 or in the case of WRs and CBs, a #2 instead of a #4. And a crappier team will give them better money and that chance to be higher on the depth chart, in hopes of improving. You can't re-up many guys before their contract is up for fear of injuries strapping you (Gurley, Cooks). The cap is an ugly beast as far as front offices are concerned but it's a wonderful thing for your secondary players. So I guess the idea is, get as many good young guys as you can and hope some stick long term, while not over investing too much. Gone are the days a team can simply win by total control over players. Now it takes, good drafting and development, an inventive capologist and a little luck. What's the point of taking a guy who may develop in year 3 or 4 and be a free agent a year after that? Of course a lot of fans don't realize how difficult it is to accomplish, so we have the "how did we let him get away?" or "why didn't they take this guy or that guy?" and "man they sure don't know what they're doing, do they?"

 

[Merlin]

Yeah... I've been known to overdo shit.