Demoff on Fisher

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jrry32

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Come on Jrry. Fans aren't quicker to recognize. They are just not bound by anything other than their fandom so they can spout off about firing people or making changes with no REAL consequences if they are wrong. That makes them right when they call for someone to be fired? Not in any reality. Do they see more than the organization at any given time? Not in any reality. Can they be right at times? The saying about a blind mouse comes to mind.

Fans are quicker to realize because they aren't held accountable. Thus, they're not motivated by bias or self-preservation.

Can fans be wrong? Certainly. But the fans have been right more often than the Rams have this past decade imo.

I'm not saying the fans are wrong about wanting Fisher replaced. I'm also not saying they are right in that it couldn't be either worse or that there is no way we are actually about to turn the corner. I have my assumptions and that includes not liking the trends I see. But I also don't put much stock in the idea that I or anyone else on here actually knows what they are talking about.

It can get worse. The team can turn the corner under Fisher. The problem is that the team turning the corner wouldn't be due to Fisher.

I also disagree with you. There are a lot of people here who know what they're talking about.

I get the want to win. The losing kills me. But put me in the camp with @Young Ram, @blackbart , @Ramlock and many others in that it is not out of the realm of possibility that the very staff many want fired, can turn it around and that it is possible we don't see all that is really going on that gives the Rams confidence that the product will get better - maybe even far better.

We don't disagree. I think Goff is going to be a good QB. Thus, I think that the Rams could very easily turn it around next year with Fisher. That's not the issue for me. I want to make the playoffs. But I also want to win Super Bowls.

Fisher has proven himself to be a mediocre coach. This team can absolutely win with a mediocre coach if Goff pans out like I think he will. But this team will be a lot better if we have a good coach. Especially a coach who will bring out the best in Goff. That's something I don't believe Fisher will do.

Thus, my problem isn't that I think Fisher is incapable of winning. It's that I think his flaws as a coach are currently causing this team to underachieve. I think his flaws as a coach will cause Goff to underachieve. I want a coach who will push this team and Goff to overachieve.

I've watched other franchises. I've seen them suck year after year and some catch fire a couple times. I understand when fans get restless. They are fans. We get up like we ourselves won something when our teams do well. We crash hard when we see our team play like they have all too often.

I'm a Rams fan. I won't ever be a fan of another NFL team. Unfortunately, that has meant taking the awful with the bad lately. Personally, I don't care what they do as long as it results in more wins and us getting to the post season with a chance to win it all. But I won't act like they would be perennial champs if they had only listened to me. I know this is a tough business. Many teams haven't sniffed the post season even though they act like fans and fire everyone after a few years. Some teams have made it to the playoffs a few times over the past decade even though they are still a mess. A few teams are seemingly always in it. Congrats to them and their fans. I hope thorough steadying the ship, we can be one of them.

More like one team (other than us). That's the Cleveland Browns.

Personally, I think the methodology has been strong with this regime. The results in terms of wins and losses have not been there. That sucks for us fans and everyone involved in the organization. Is that a result of bad coaching? It could very well be. From my view it appears so. And I'm ok with the idea of changing the staff but I don't want to see them go back to the methodology of too many other teams (including our own GSOT teams) that happened to catch lightning in a bottle in spite of methodology rather than because of it.

I don't see the methodology changing with the coaching staff. Demoff will continue to be a constant. He's the guy who has kept us in the free and clear in terms of the salary cap.

So fire Fisher, keep Fisher, clean house, move Fisher to an admin role, whatever. Just find a winning methodology and stick with it. To me, the base methods they are using make sense. But I'm a fan which means I really don't know for sure.

Personally, I don't think there's a winning methodology beyond finding a franchise QB and/or hiring a quality coaching staff. If you have one or both, you can succeed with a lot of different methodologies.

There are certainly losing methodologies, though. Like having people meddling at the top who don't really know the game of football.
 

dieterbrock

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Okay, now do you think Rivera would have been as successful without a franchise QB?
As successful? Not sure. He won games with Derek Anderson though so I am certain he would have successful
 

jrry32

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Start over as in the philosophy changes, the draft strategy changes, the way the team operates changes. You want bring up Haurbaugh and yea he did a heck of a job but look at his drafts. Very poor. So this talented team can easily contend for a year or 3 but be back to
mediocre or worse.

The 49ers wouldn't be a mediocre team if Harbaugh was still there. They were handcuffed by a GM who proved to be incompetent. The GM won the power struggle, and as we see, the team fell apart.

I don't care if the philosophy, draft strategy, or the way the team operates changes. I'm all for fresh ideas. And I'm actually in favor of keeping Snead if we let Fisher go.

My point was that if you take away the franchise QB of winning teams, very few coaches would be able to pull off a winning season with backups.

But the very fact that they have franchise QBs is often connected to the coach they have. You have repeatedly tried to make this point to justify keeping Fisher. I think it does the opposite. The Rams need to grab a coach who will bring out the best in Goff. That's not Jeff Fisher.

And I also think your point generalizes quite a bit. Dallas, Denver, Minnesota, and New England all lost their starting QBs and won this year. Denver lost Manning and were forced to start his backup, Siemian, until their 1st round pick is ready to play. They're 7-4. Dallas lost Romo and his backup took his job. They're 10-1. New England went 3-1 without Brady. Minnesota is 6-5 despite Bridgewater going down in the preseason.

Good coaches find a way to keep their teams competitive. In 5 years, Fisher couldn't find a way to get his team to .500.
 

Dodgersrf

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Don't mean to be piling on here, but I think this is the biggest football reason to cut bait with Fisher now. Say you extend Fisher. Fisher can't go into next year with the same offensive coordinator. So he brings a new coordinator in. The team does the normal Fisher things during the season and go 7-9. Fisher gets fired. New coach comes in and brings their new staff in. That puts Goff in his 3rd year with his 3rd offensive coordinator. Sound familiar. You cannot ruin yet another young talented QB. Give the kid a chance with a HC that can develop him.
This should be a concern.
If Fisher is retained, the offensive changes should be his idea, not something that was forced on him. I would hope that he realizes it's time to adjust his offensive philosophy. Bring in a proven offensive mind to run the show on that side of the ball.
If not, then a new HC should be hired.

Either way, the oline must improve or we're in for another year of losing ball.
 

RamFan503

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Start over as in the philosophy changes, the draft strategy changes, the way the team operates changes. You want bring up Haurbaugh and yea he did a heck of a job but look at his drafts. Very poor. So this talented team can easily contend for a year or 3 but be back to
mediocre or worse.
Good point about Harbaugh. People want to put Harblow on a pedestal because he took a team Singletary couldn't win with and took them to the playoffs and SB. Never mind the train wreck he created while doing so. Are you going to get a coach at that level who is good at Xs and Os and will either hand off the personnel decisions or be good at both? It's almost like chasing an albino elk. You know - or at least you think you know - there are a few out there. Finding them is another matter.
 

LACHAMP46

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As one league source explained it to PFT, the theory/hypothesis/rumor currently making the rounds is that the contracts will cover multiple years, but will give the Rams the ability to void the contracts after one year.

If true, this means that the deals will actually be one-year Band-Aids masquerading as multi-year deals, giving the Rams the flexibility to cancel the arrangements without financial penalty after 2017.

The Rams consistently have said that there is no update regarding the contracts of Fisher and Snead, both of whom will become free agents absent new contracts. Recent comments from COO Kevin Demoff have been interpreted as a strong hint that Fisher will indeed be back.
mmmm, hmmmm

I wouldn't believe that Snead & Fish...Snisher...would except a series of 1 year deals...But due to the circumstances...maybe. This is still painful but I understood. Like @RamFan503 says, it could get worse.

Give the coaches a break! Stop complaining, and enjoy the effort in games,
or follow the Pats....that's how you ended your rant, correct? Well, a couple people that ARE speaking highly of the Rams...

http://www.masslive.com/patriots/index.ssf/2016/11/bill_belichick_drops_heavy_pra.html

The New England Patriots matchup well with the Los Angeles Rams, and should be heavy favorites heading into the game. With the talent on their roster, the Patriots should be well equipped to deal whatever threats the Rams present.

Except Aaron Donald.

The third-year defensive tackle is the exact type of player that can give the Patriots fits: an explosive interior pass rusher that can get into Tom Brady's face quickly and force him to hurry and make mistakes.

The Patriots are well aware of the threat that Donald presents. Speaking to reporters on a conference call Tuesday, Belichick had high praise for Donald, calling him "one of the most disruptive players in the league."
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/b...hocking-player-as-the-rams-tremendous-weapon/

I'd start with saying a very talented team. They have a lot of very good players, a lot of explosive players in all three phases of the game. Let's start with the kicking game; I mean [Johnny] Hekker is a tremendous weapon. This guy looks like as good a player as I've ever seen at that position. He's a tremendous weapon in his ability to punt the ball, punt it inside the 20, directional kick it, involved in fakes, can throw, can run, very athletic."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...-belichick-heaps-praise-on-rams-qb-jared-goff
"You just have to respect the talent and the skill that Goff has," Belichick said Wednesday. "You can certainly see that, particularly in this game against New Orleans. He's a very, very talented player with a great arm and the ability to make a lot of throws."
There ya go! Positive baby! Good vibrations! Feel better? :shades::peace:
 

RamFan503

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The 49ers wouldn't be a mediocre team if Harbaugh was still there. They were handcuffed by a GM who proved to be incompetent. The GM won the power struggle, and as we see, the team fell apart.
I think there was much more to it and I don't buy that Harbaugh would be good as both a personnel guy and a coach. He reportedly had the last say in the draft and FA and the power play was partly if not mostly about some of his decisions in that respect.
 

Young Ram

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But the very fact that they have franchise QBs is often connected to the coach they have. You have repeatedly tried to make this point to justify keeping Fisher. I think it does the opposite. The Rams need to grab a coach who will bring out the best in Goff. That's not Jeff Fisher.

And I also think your point generalizes quite a bit. Dallas, Denver, Minnesota, and New England all lost their starting QBs and won this year. Denver lost Manning and were forced to start his backup, Siemian, until their 1st round pick is ready to play. They're 7-4. Dallas lost Romo and his backup took his job. They're 10-1. New England went 3-1 without Brady. Minnesota is 6-5 despite Bridgewater going down in the preseason.

Good coaches find a way to keep their teams competitive. In 5 years, Fisher couldn't find a way to get his team to .500.

Dallas - After going 12-4 in 2014 they lost Romo for 13 ½ games in 2015. They went 4-12 (Romo won 3 of those starts). Dak (now their franchise QB) and Elliot have done a great job behind that big O-Line.

Minnesota - Outstanding defensive performance in their first 5 games since then? 1-5. Bradford is not your typical backup either as he would start on plenty of teams.

New England and Denver - The few exceptions I'm talking about. We know belichick will go down as one of the best HC ever.
 

dieterbrock

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Start over as in the philosophy changes, the draft strategy changes, the way the team operates changes.
Well, the Patriots weren't afraid to start over when they fired Carroll in favor of Belichick. Green Bay not afraid to bag Sherman for McCarthy, the Giants going from Fassell to Coughlin. Nope. The winning franchises are willing to take the risk to improve the team.
 

RamFan503

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Fans are quicker to realize because they aren't held accountable. Thus, they're not motivated by bias or self-preservation.

Can fans be wrong? Certainly. But the fans have been right more often than the Rams have this past decade imo.
Seriously? Accountability means you don't do your job as well or that you are reluctant to make decisions? That's an interesting thought. Not a reality based thought - but an interesting one.

It can get worse. The team can turn the corner under Fisher. The problem is that the team turning the corner wouldn't be due to Fisher.

I also disagree with you. There are a lot of people here who know what they're talking about.
There are a great many fans here that know football and given all the information may be able to make informed decisions. There are exactly zero on here that know enough specifics to do just that. It's not a slight on the fans here or anywhere else. Don't try to make it out to be.
More like one team (other than us). That's the Cleveland Browns.
No - NOT just one team other than us. 13 teams have never won a SB. 4 teams have never even played in one. Another 7 teams have made it to exactly one SB. Many others have rarely been in the playoffs. There is no magic pill and I'm guessing the people running those organizations knew/know more than anyone on an internet forum. I'm also guessing they had a heightened sense of urgency when it came to trying to win games.

So we can all act like we have the answers BECAUSE we have zero accountability for them. Those that are accountable try and fail more often than they succeed and it is not from knowing less than the fans.
 

Young Ram

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Well, the Patriots weren't afraid to start over when they fired Carroll in favor of Belichick. Green Bay not afraid to bag Sherman for McCarthy, the Giants going from Fassell to Coughlin. Nope. The winning franchises are willing to take the risk to improve the team.
Okay. Never said I was afraid. I just think we are in the cusp of winning and Goff is the hope. I think we can be serious contenders if he pans out. The defense and special teams is practically set. To start over would mean to mess with those set pieces.
 

Bruce2980

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We call them like we see them. If you're not fed up with a coach after him posting a losing season in each of his first 5 seasons, you have the patience of a saint. If you also don't recognize that he has failed to get the job done (especially when he has the final say over all personnel moves), you aren't accepting what's right in front of your face.
What I find just as frustrating as the win loss column for Fisher is the abysmal offense he has had so far, and the regression with the running game and O-Line, that combined with the 7-9 seasons is too much too handle. Fisher has always had the "injury" excuse to fall back on and now there are no major injuries to rely on this year, in respect to other teams and other years. And now he's telling ED he can't make negative comments and get cookies from the family? Are you kidding me. My family has cookies for me no matter how critical I am, heck they even make me pies.
 

Bruce2980

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Yea of course I'm fed up with losing. But I'm also fed up with changing head coaches and having to start all over. So in my eyes I see a Defense that has improved over the years and an offense that needs a field general to guide them to greener pastures and we could potentially have him now.
But we have a running back that can't get out of the backfield because of some serious regression on the O-Line, due to incompetence from the OC and maybe the line coach. How far can the O go without an o-line?
 

thirteen28

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Yea of course I'm fed up with losing. But I'm also fed up with changing head coaches and having to start all over.

I really want to put this one to sleep, because it's just flat out wrong. Changing head coaches does **NOT** equal starting all over. The Harbaugh-49ers example has already been given (and as correctly pointed out above, it was Baalke who ruined their roster, not Harbaugh).

Another example is the Bucs after firing Tony Dungy. Gruden came in, left the defense largely intact (and I think he even retained much of the defensive staff), and focused on fixing the offense - the result being Tampa Bay getting over the hump and winning the Super Bowl.

Another even better example is our very own Rams. In 1972, under Tommy Prothro, they finished a very Fisher-like 6-7-1. Prothro was fired. Chuck Knox was hired. Did he blow things up? No. He largely kept the same defensive personnel that Prothro had - including Jack Youngblood and Isiah Robertson, both drafted by Prothro. The offensive line was kept intact. There was a change at QB, as fading star Roman Gabriel was traded to the Eagles, while John Hadl was brought in from San Diego. At WR, we netted Harold Jackson in that trade. The results? Rams finish 12-2 in 1973, the first of 7 consecutive NFC West titles and 8 consecutive playoff appearances. Four of those years they made the NFC Championship, in one of those years went to the Super Bowl. In only one of those 8 years did they fail to win 10 games, finishing 9-7 in 1979.

We can probably find many more such examples, enough to prove that changing coaches need not mean starting all over.

So in my eyes I see a Defense that has improved over the years and an offense that needs a field general to guide them to greener pastures and we could potentially have him now.

They need more than a field general. I think Goff can be great, but they need a decent offensive coordinator, which is something they have not had under Fisher, largely because of Fisher. We've had one that was very mediocre (Schotty) and two that are downright awful (Cigs and now Boras).

Moreover, what we really need is an overall change of philosophy from Fisherball, i.e. keep it close and win with your defense. We are in a league where the rules are overwhelmingly in favor of offense. Fisher's philosophy leaves very little margin for error while absolutely failing to take advantage of the fact that the rules favor scoring. That's just insane. If you try to rely on your defense to win by 3 every week, your defense has to be damn near perfect, and your offense is at a disadvantage because you have already slowed them down before they even take the field. If you can score points in sufficient quantities, your margin for error increases - dramatically with a defense like the one the Rams currently have.

Start over as in the philosophy changes, the draft strategy changes, the way the team operates changes.

This team desperately needs a change in philosophy, as noted in the previous item - not just to give them more margin for error to win games, but also to make sure that Goff is developed to his fullest potential. The Rams gave up a significant amount of draft capital for the right to draft Goff, it would be foolhardy to expect him to be nothing more than a game manager.

As far as the draft strategy, I see no need to change it on defense, although I do think there needs to be some adjustments with offensive drafting. I have defended GRob quite a bit this year because I still think he can be a quality OLinemen in this league with the proper coaching. That being said, this strategy of drafting raw athletes and trying to coach them up hasn't worked and at least needs to be scrutinized heavier, if not scrapped. Some of that might be a function of Fisher's overall team philosophy, which is to put the brakes on the offense and win with defense in the 4th quarter. Either way, I think as the Rams move forward, they might be better served by a draft strategy which focuses on guys that are more polished and ready to play. I reserve the right to change that opinion though, in the event we ever have an offensive coaching staff that is good at developing players :p

I would add that the change in philosophy is needed not only for sound football reasons, but for business reasons. The Rams are now in the entertainment capital of the world, they have to be entertaining. Winning more games would obviously be more entertaining, but not only that, having a dynamic offense (and no, please don't strawman me with GSOT comebacks) is entertaining. The Lakers didn't merely win with Kobe, they entertained - and Kobe told Snead as much, saying something to the effect that this is the way sports are in LA.

If Fisher is retained, the offensive changes should be his idea, not something that was forced on him. I would hope that he realizes it's time to adjust his offensive philosophy. Bring in a proven offensive mind to run the show on that side of the ball.
If not, then a new HC should be hired.

This is the one thing (in bold) that I just have absolutely no confidence in happening, because I just can't see Fisher having the necessary epiphany to realize he needs to change his approach to the game and implement a more dynamic offense, and ditch the whole "keep it close and win with defense" philosophy. It's been painfully obvious for at least three years now that this team is an offense away from being good. We've had excellent special teams during Fisher's tenure. The defense was above average his first two years, very good the next two, and (Sunday's debacle notwithstanding) excellent this year - in the top 10 despite the added pressure of carrying an offense that is dead last in the NFL. But that last part means something - despite the fact that he has been here and has had 5 years to run around the offense, not only has it failed to improve, but it has sunk to rock bottom. This despite having been given a significant amount of draft capital to improve it. It hasn't improved, and that is a direct result of Fisher's overall philosophy, which leads to him hiring guys like Cignetti and Boras instead of getitng a guy like a Sean McVay, an Adam Gase, or someone of that like (i.e. innovative).

Given the history he has with the Rams, as well as with the Titans, I just don't see Fisher truly having the necessary epiphany in any scenario short of him being fired/not extended and being explicitly told during the meeting that the reason he will no longer be the Rams coach is that despite building a defense and special teams that are among the league's best, his failure to build and offense and his desire to win with defense has failed. It's failed to win, it's failed to get the Rams to .500 even once in his tenure.

That's what it takes for some coaches. It's what it took for Tony Dungy. I can still hear his soft, droning voice saying "we'll play good defense, we'll run the ball, and we'll win it in the 4th quarter" ... much the same as Fisher's philosophy. And in fairness to Dungy, at least his teams in Tampa Bay got to the playoffs, but they would always lose because they didn't have a good enough offense and couldn't score enough points against teams who may have had a lesser defense but always had a better offense. So he got canned from Tampa Bay. But at least he learned from it - when he went to the Colts, a team with an established elite QB, he left his old philosophy behind. Under Dungy, if the Colts were able to lay 40 points on you, then 40 points would be laid on you. If they could effectively win the game by halftime, they would. And eventually, with that approach, Dungy got a ring, and did so with a team that was probably no more talented than his Bucs teams, but was definitely more talented at the most important position. And most importantly, he didn't handcuff that guy.

How you try to win is important, because some ways are more successful than others. Fisher's chosen path is one that has been outdated for at least a decade now, probably more. And he shows absolutely no awareness that this might not be the best way, even as the atrociously bad offense and the losses provide a continuous stream of evidence to the contrary. It's time for something new.
 
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Prime Time

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Well, the Patriots weren't afraid to start over when they fired Carroll in favor of Belichick.

It's interesting that they hired Belichick after having an 5-11 record his previous season, and only one out of five winning seasons as HC of the Browns. It was also good for them to not fire him after his first season, 5-11, with the Patriots. That's faith and it paid off big time.

the Giants going from Fassell to Coughlin

The same goes for Coughlin who had compiled a 19-29 record his last three seasons as HC of the Jaguars, and then began his tenure with the Giants with a 6-10 record.

I wonder what the owners and GM's of those two teams saw in Belichick and Coughlin despite their many failures as head coaches?

Of course it's doubtful that these teams would have stuck with them had they had Fisher's same won-loss record over their first five seasons. I don't know enough about either of those two teams and what kind of situations these coaches walked into. I do know that Belichick had Tom Brady in his second season. So there you go to all the members who believe having a "franchise QB" makes all the difference.
******************************************************************************************
http://www.thesportster.com/football/top-20-worst-first-year-for-nfl-head-coaches-in-history/

Bill Belichick

He’s a legend, the most hated NFL coach in history, and quite possibly a cheater depending on who you ask. He is however one of the best coaches in NFL history. What is he doing on this list, you ask? Because his first season with the New England Patriots stunk.

Led by QB Drew Bledsoe and future star Tom Brady on the bench, Belichick’s 2000 Patriots went 5-11 and finished in last place in the division, which was 5th place back then.

The whole situation was bizarre. He was originally named Head Coach of the Jets at the end of 1999, but resigned after one day in what was supposed to be his introductory press conference. Days later, he took the rival Patriots job. In that regard, you can say his first time with the New York Jets is the worst in NFL history since he only lasted a day.

After the 2000 season, Tom Brady came in to replace Bledsoe during 2001 and two legends were born. It just goes to show that no matter how bad things might look, it always pays to stick it out. Unless your coach is some of the other guys on this list.
 

Young Ram

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I really want to put this one to sleep, because it's just flat out wrong. Changing head coaches does **NOT** equal starting all over. The Harbaugh-49ers example has already been given (and as correctly pointed out above, it was Baalke who ruined their roster, not Harbaugh).

Another example is the Bucs after firing Tony Dungy. Gruden came in, left the defense largely intact (and I think he even retained much of the defensive staff), and focused on fixing the offense - the result being Tampa Bay getting over the hump and winning the Super Bowl.

Another even better example is our very own Rams. In 1972, under Tommy Prothro, they finished a very Fisher-like 6-7-1. Prothro was fired. Chuck Knox was hired. Did he blow things up? No. He largely kept the same defensive personnel that Prothro had - including Jack Youngblood and Isiah Robertson, both drafted by Prothro. The offensive line was kept intact. There was a change at QB, as fading star Roman Gabriel was traded to the Eagles, while John Hadl was brought in from San Diego. At WR, we netted Harold Jackson in that trade. The results? Rams finish 12-2 in 1973, the first of 7 consecutive NFC West titles and 8 consecutive playoff appearances. Four of those years they made the NFC Championship, in one of those years went to the Super Bowl. In only one of those 8 years did they fail to win 10 games, finishing 9-7 in 1979.

We can probably find many more such examples, enough to prove that changing coaches need not mean starting all over.

That's fine but you would have to hope that Greg Williams and John Fassel stay on board with a new head coach which is far from guaranteed. The players would be the same, yes, but some players might now fit into a new scheme.


They need more than a field general. I think Goff can be great, but they need a decent offensive coordinator, which is something they have not had under Fisher, largely because of Fisher. We've had one that was very mediocre (Schotty) and two that are downright awful (Cigs and now Boras).

Moreover, what we really need is an overall change of philosophy from Fisherball, i.e. keep it close and win with your defense. We are in a league where the rules are overwhelmingly in favor of offense. Fisher's philosophy leaves very little margin for error while absolutely failing to take advantage of the fact that the rules favor scoring. That's just insane. If you try to rely on your defense to win by 3 every week, your defense has to be damn near perfect, and your offense is at a disadvantage because you have already slowed them down before they even take the field. If you can score points in sufficient quantities, your margin for error increases - dramatically with a defense like the one the Rams currently have.

The notion that Fisher just wants to win close games is absurd. I'm pretty sure he would be the first to tell you he would love to blow out teams. Yet it doesn't happen often on Sundays. Most of the times you see close games heading into the 4th. He probably has played it safe because he's never had a dynamic arm talent like Goff but we'll see.

This team desperately needs a change in philosophy, as noted in the previous item - not just to give them more margin for error to win games, but also to make sure that Goff is developed to his fullest potential. The Rams gave up a significant amount of draft capital for the right to draft Goff, it would be foolhardy to expect him to be nothing more than a game manager.

As far as the draft strategy, I see no need to change it on defense, although I do think there needs to be some adjustments with offensive drafting. I have defended GRob quite a bit this year because I still think he can be a quality OLinemen in this league with the proper coaching. That being said, this strategy of drafting raw athletes and trying to coach them up hasn't worked and at least needs to be scrutinized heavier, if not scrapped. Some of that might be a function of Fisher's overall team philosophy, which is to put the brakes on the offense and win with defense in the 4th quarter. Either way, I think as the Rams move forward, they might be better served by a draft strategy which focuses on guys that are more polished and ready to play. I reserve the right to change that opinion though, in the event we ever have an offensive coaching staff that is good at developing players :p

I would add that the change in philosophy is needed not only for sound football reasons, but for business reasons. The Rams are now in the entertainment capital of the world, they have to be entertaining. Winning more games would obviously be more entertaining, but not only that, having a dynamic offense (and no, please don't strawman me with GSOT comebacks) is entertaining. The Lakers didn't merely win with Kobe, they entertained - and Kobe told Snead as much, saying something to the effect that this is the way sports are in LA.

We have yet to see what Weinke will do with Goff. He was director of a football program and worked with cam newton among others. A new OC would be nice but it's still wait and see for me as we have 5 games left with Goff under center.
 

Bruce2980

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567
I really want to put this one to sleep, because it's just flat out wrong. Changing head coaches does **NOT** equal starting all over. The Harbaugh-49ers example has already been given (and as correctly pointed out above, it was Baalke who ruined their roster, not Harbaugh).

Another example is the Bucs after firing Tony Dungy. Gruden came in, left the defense largely intact (and I think he even retained much of the defensive staff), and focused on fixing the offense - the result being Tampa Bay getting over the hump and winning the Super Bowl.

Another even better example is our very own Rams. In 1972, under Tommy Prothro, they finished a very Fisher-like 6-7-1. Prothro was fired. Chuck Knox was hired. Did he blow things up? No. He largely kept the same defensive personnel that Prothro had - including Jack Youngblood and Isiah Robertson, both drafted by Prothro. The offensive line was kept intact. There was a change at QB, as fading star Roman Gabriel was traded to the Eagles, while John Hadl was brought in from San Diego. At WR, we netted Harold Jackson in that trade. The results? Rams finish 12-2 in 1973, the first of 7 consecutive NFC West titles and 8 consecutive playoff appearances. Four of those years they made the NFC Championship, in one of those years went to the Super Bowl. In only one of those 8 years did they fail to win 10 games, finishing 9-7 in 1979.

We can probably find many more such examples, enough to prove that changing coaches need not mean starting all over.



They need more than a field general. I think Goff can be great, but they need a decent offensive coordinator, which is something they have not had under Fisher, largely because of Fisher. We've had one that was very mediocre (Schotty) and two that are downright awful (Cigs and now Boras).

Moreover, what we really need is an overall change of philosophy from Fisherball, i.e. keep it close and win with your defense. We are in a league where the rules are overwhelmingly in favor of offense. Fisher's philosophy leaves very little margin for error while absolutely failing to take advantage of the fact that the rules favor scoring. That's just insane. If you try to rely on your defense to win by 3 every week, your defense has to be damn near perfect, and your offense is at a disadvantage because you have already slowed them down before they even take the field. If you can score points in sufficient quantities, your margin for error increases - dramatically with a defense like the one the Rams currently have.



This team desperately needs a change in philosophy, as noted in the previous item - not just to give them more margin for error to win games, but also to make sure that Goff is developed to his fullest potential. The Rams gave up a significant amount of draft capital for the right to draft Goff, it would be foolhardy to expect him to be nothing more than a game manager.

As far as the draft strategy, I see no need to change it on defense, although I do think there needs to be some adjustments with offensive drafting. I have defended GRob quite a bit this year because I still think he can be a quality OLinemen in this league with the proper coaching. That being said, this strategy of drafting raw athletes and trying to coach them up hasn't worked and at least needs to be scrutinized heavier, if not scrapped. Some of that might be a function of Fisher's overall team philosophy, which is to put the brakes on the offense and win with defense in the 4th quarter. Either way, I think as the Rams move forward, they might be better served by a draft strategy which focuses on guys that are more polished and ready to play. I reserve the right to change that opinion though, in the event we ever have an offensive coaching staff that is good at developing players :p

I would add that the change in philosophy is needed not only for sound football reasons, but for business reasons. The Rams are now in the entertainment capital of the world, they have to be entertaining. Winning more games would obviously be more entertaining, but not only that, having a dynamic offense (and no, please don't strawman me with GSOT comebacks) is entertaining. The Lakers didn't merely win with Kobe, they entertained - and Kobe told Snead as much, saying something to the effect that this is the way sports are in LA.



This is the one thing (in bold) that I just have absolutely no confidence in happening, because I just can't see Fisher having the necessary epiphany to realize he needs to change his approach to the game and implement a more dynamic offense, and ditch the whole "keep it close and win with defense" philosophy. It's been painfully obvious for at least three years now that this team is an offense away from being good. We've had excellent special teams during Fisher's tenure. The defense was above average his first two years, very good the next two, and (Sunday's debacle notwithstanding) excellent this year - in the top 10 despite the added pressure of carrying an offense that is dead last in the NFL. But that last part means something - despite the fact that he has been here and has had 5 years to run around the offense, not only has it failed to improve, but it has sunk to rock bottom. This despite having been given a significant amount of draft capital to improve it. It hasn't improved, and that is a direct result of Fisher's overall philosophy, which leads to him hiring guys like Cignetti and Boras instead of getitng a guy like a Sean McVay, an Adam Gase, or someone of that like (i.e. innovative).

Given the history he has with the Rams, as well as with the Titans, I just don't see Fisher truly having the necessary epiphany in any scenario short of him being fired/not extended and being explicitly told during the meeting that the reason he will no longer be the Rams coach is that despite building a defense and special teams that are among the league's best, his failure to build and offense and his desire to win with defense has failed. It's failed to win, it's failed to get the Rams to .500 even once in his tenure.

That's what it takes for some coaches. It's what it took for Tony Dungy. I can still hear his soft, droning voice saying "we'll play good defense, we'll run the ball, and we'll win it in the 4th quarter" ... much the same as Fisher's philosophy. And in fairness to Dungy, at least his teams in Tampa Bay got to the playoffs, but they would always lose because they didn't have a good enough offense and couldn't score enough points against teams who may have had a lesser defense but always had a better offense. So he got canned from Tampa Bay. But at least he learned from it - when he went to the Colts, a team with an established elite QB, he left his old philosophy behind. Under Dungy, if the Colts were able to lay 40 points on you, then 40 points would be laid on you. If they could effectively win the game by halftime, they would. And eventually, with that approach, Dungy got a ring, and did so with a team that was probably no more talented than his Bucs teams, but was definitely more talented at the most important position. And most importantly, he didn't handcuff that guy.

How you try to win is important, because some ways are more successful than others. Fisher's chosen path is one that has been outdated for at least a decade now, probably more. And he shows absolutely no awareness that this might not be the best way, even as the atrociously bad offense and the losses provide a continuous stream of evidence to the contrary. It's time for something new.
BRAVO, BRAVO
 

Young Ram

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But we have a running back that can't get out of the backfield because of some serious regression on the O-Line, due to incompetence from the OC and maybe the line coach. How far can the O go without an o-line?
I think the O-line has done a pretty good job pass blocking. They have struggled run blocking no doubt but I would put some blame on Gurley for the lack of a running game.
 

Dodgersrf

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I really want to put this one to sleep, because it's just flat out wrong. Changing head coaches does **NOT** equal starting all over. The Harbaugh-49ers example has already been given (and as correctly pointed out above, it was Baalke who ruined their roster, not Harbaugh).

Another example is the Bucs after firing Tony Dungy. Gruden came in, left the defense largely intact (and I think he even retained much of the defensive staff), and focused on fixing the offense - the result being Tampa Bay getting over the hump and winning the Super Bowl.

Another even better example is our very own Rams. In 1972, under Tommy Prothro, they finished a very Fisher-like 6-7-1. Prothro was fired. Chuck Knox was hired. Did he blow things up? No. He largely kept the same defensive personnel that Prothro had - including Jack Youngblood and Isiah Robertson, both drafted by Prothro. The offensive line was kept intact. There was a change at QB, as fading star Roman Gabriel was traded to the Eagles, while John Hadl was brought in from San Diego. At WR, we netted Harold Jackson in that trade. The results? Rams finish 12-2 in 1973, the first of 7 consecutive NFC West titles and 8 consecutive playoff appearances. Four of those years they made the NFC Championship, in one of those years went to the Super Bowl. In only one of those 8 years did they fail to win 10 games, finishing 9-7 in 1979.

We can probably find many more such examples, enough to prove that changing coaches need not mean starting all over.



They need more than a field general. I think Goff can be great, but they need a decent offensive coordinator, which is something they have not had under Fisher, largely because of Fisher. We've had one that was very mediocre (Schotty) and two that are downright awful (Cigs and now Boras).

Moreover, what we really need is an overall change of philosophy from Fisherball, i.e. keep it close and win with your defense. We are in a league where the rules are overwhelmingly in favor of offense. Fisher's philosophy leaves very little margin for error while absolutely failing to take advantage of the fact that the rules favor scoring. That's just insane. If you try to rely on your defense to win by 3 every week, your defense has to be damn near perfect, and your offense is at a disadvantage because you have already slowed them down before they even take the field. If you can score points in sufficient quantities, your margin for error increases - dramatically with a defense like the one the Rams currently have.



This team desperately needs a change in philosophy, as noted in the previous item - not just to give them more margin for error to win games, but also to make sure that Goff is developed to his fullest potential. The Rams gave up a significant amount of draft capital for the right to draft Goff, it would be foolhardy to expect him to be nothing more than a game manager.

As far as the draft strategy, I see no need to change it on defense, although I do think there needs to be some adjustments with offensive drafting. I have defended GRob quite a bit this year because I still think he can be a quality OLinemen in this league with the proper coaching. That being said, this strategy of drafting raw athletes and trying to coach them up hasn't worked and at least needs to be scrutinized heavier, if not scrapped. Some of that might be a function of Fisher's overall team philosophy, which is to put the brakes on the offense and win with defense in the 4th quarter. Either way, I think as the Rams move forward, they might be better served by a draft strategy which focuses on guys that are more polished and ready to play. I reserve the right to change that opinion though, in the event we ever have an offensive coaching staff that is good at developing players :p

I would add that the change in philosophy is needed not only for sound football reasons, but for business reasons. The Rams are now in the entertainment capital of the world, they have to be entertaining. Winning more games would obviously be more entertaining, but not only that, having a dynamic offense (and no, please don't strawman me with GSOT comebacks) is entertaining. The Lakers didn't merely win with Kobe, they entertained - and Kobe told Snead as much, saying something to the effect that this is the way sports are in LA.



This is the one thing (in bold) that I just have absolutely no confidence in happening, because I just can't see Fisher having the necessary epiphany to realize he needs to change his approach to the game and implement a more dynamic offense, and ditch the whole "keep it close and win with defense" philosophy. It's been painfully obvious for at least three years now that this team is an offense away from being good. We've had excellent special teams during Fisher's tenure. The defense was above average his first two years, very good the next two, and (Sunday's debacle notwithstanding) excellent this year - in the top 10 despite the added pressure of carrying an offense that is dead last in the NFL. But that last part means something - despite the fact that he has been here and has had 5 years to run around the offense, not only has it failed to improve, but it has sunk to rock bottom. This despite having been given a significant amount of draft capital to improve it. It hasn't improved, and that is a direct result of Fisher's overall philosophy, which leads to him hiring guys like Cignetti and Boras instead of getitng a guy like a Sean McVay, an Adam Gase, or someone of that like (i.e. innovative).

Given the history he has with the Rams, as well as with the Titans, I just don't see Fisher truly having the necessary epiphany in any scenario short of him being fired/not extended and being explicitly told during the meeting that the reason he will no longer be the Rams coach is that despite building a defense and special teams that are among the league's best, his failure to build and offense and his desire to win with defense has failed. It's failed to win, it's failed to get the Rams to .500 even once in his tenure.

That's what it takes for some coaches. It's what it took for Tony Dungy. I can still hear his soft, droning voice saying "we'll play good defense, we'll run the ball, and we'll win it in the 4th quarter" ... much the same as Fisher's philosophy. And in fairness to Dungy, at least his teams in Tampa Bay got to the playoffs, but they would always lose because they didn't have a good enough offense and couldn't score enough points against teams who may have had a lesser defense but always had a better offense. So he got canned from Tampa Bay. But at least he learned from it - when he went to the Colts, a team with an established elite QB, he left his old philosophy behind. Under Dungy, if the Colts were able to lay 40 points on you, then 40 points would be laid on you. If they could effectively win the game by halftime, they would. And eventually, with that approach, Dungy got a ring, and did so with a team that was probably no more talented than his Bucs teams, but was definitely more talented at the most important position. And most importantly, he didn't handcuff that guy.

How you try to win is important, because some ways are more successful than others. Fisher's chosen path is one that has been outdated for at least a decade now, probably more. And he shows absolutely no awareness that this might not be the best way, even as the atrociously bad offense and the losses provide a continuous stream of evidence to the contrary. It's time for something new.
Agree. It's not our decision though.

Im.with @FRO, that I don't want to see a new system nextvyear, them let go of Fisher after next season. Then Goff learning a 3rd system in his 3rd season. It's losing battle for a young QB.
Fisher should go after this season, unless that "epiphany" happens now.
Which ,I agree is doubtful, but not impossible.
 

Bruce2980

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Messages
567
I think the O-line has done a pretty good job pass blocking. They have struggled run blocking no doubt but I would put some blame on Gurley for the lack of a running game.
Dude, there are guys on the O-Line running the wrong way. The play calling in the run game is so telegraphed that the Ds LBs are crashing through the holes faster that Gurley can get there. The O-Line is horrible this year, especially in the run game. They are much worse than last year and are now only starting to get a little better after 11 games. They still can't get a 3rd or 4th and 1. You can't make this stuff up. Boras will not be an OC for any team after he is fired. I'll bet mucho ROD cash on that.