Demoff on Fisher

[thirteen28]

Agree. It's not our decision though.

Im.with @FRO, that I don't want to see a new system nextvyear, them let go of Fisher after next season. Then Goff learning a 3rd system in his 3rd season. It's losing battle for a young QB.
Fisher should go after this season, unless that "epiphany" happens now.
Which ,I agree is doubtful, but not impossible.

Yes, I'm with Fro on that as well, get a new coach and a new system in place, then you probably have a couple of years with that system and thus time for Goff to get acclimated to it. And develop some assistants underneath the OC that can take over in the event he gets a HC gig somewhere.

 

[Young Ram]

Dude, there are guys on the O-Line running the wrong way. The play calling in the run game is so telegraphed that the Ds LBs are crashing through the holes faster that Gurley can get there. The O-Line is horrible this year, especially in the run game. They are much worse than last year and are now only starting to get a little better after 11 games. They still can't get a 3rd or 4th and 1. You can't make this stuff up. Boras will not be an OC for any team after he is fired. I'll bet mucho ROD cash on that.

Yeah like I said, the pass blocking has been solid. Not bad, not good, but solid. The run blocking needs a lot of work there is no denying that, but I've also see holes that Gurley has straight up missed which would have gone for big gains. Now you want to talk about a truly horrible O-line look no further than Seattle's.

 

[RamFan503]

I get the desire to try something new in the form of a HC. I am not opposed to it myself. But I'm also not convinced it is the dead certain positive step that many fans believe it is. Changing HCs does indeed generally mean a change in staff and with it a new scheme. Maybe that is indeed what is needed. And maybe it gets us no playoffs, 3 to 5 years down the road, and our roster being gutted by bad personnel moves.

Maybe another coach will come in and just change the Offensive philosophy and scheme. Maybe not.

My personal view is that there are no sure things out there. Every coach I have heard mentioned has his potential ups and downs. If they make the change - so be it. If they don't so be it. It doesn't mean I am defending mediocrity or delusional in thinking we also have a chance to be better and possibly even a perennial contender by sticking with Fisher. I have my doubts - certainly.

The bottom line for me is that I don't pretend to know I'm right either way so I don't get all worked up in professing my POV or in who I'd like to see take over.

So while we still have Fisher as a head coach, you probably won't see me come unglued on him or get too excited about replacing him. What I WILL do is cheer for my Rams and hope that we do indeed start seeing a good trend on offense and the team itself. I don't want to change coaches just to try something new. I'd much rather see this team turn it around and have the stability in addition to a solid staff and methodology. It may not happen. But I hope it does.

 

[FRO]

Agree. It's not our decision though.

Im.with @FRO, that I don't want to see a new system nextvyear, them let go of Fisher after next season. Then Goff learning a 3rd system in his 3rd season. It's losing battle for a young QB.
Fisher should go after this season, unless that "epiphany" happens now.
Which ,I agree is doubtful, but not impossible.

The quickest way to ruin a QB is to put them through multiple offenses and multiple coordinators. Bradford and Alex Smith are prime examples. Two very talented players who's growth were stunted by instability early on. QBs need to know the offense intimately. That takes time. Also every offseason the QB is spending learning the playbook is time that's been taken away from working on fundamentals and other aspects of the game. I didn't like the idea of keeping Fisher and trading up for Goff. I think after 4 years it was evident that Fisher wasn't the guy and drafting a QB high on a team with the coach on thin ice is stupid. That being said, Fisher isn't on thin ice just yet. I think he gets 2 more years minimum.

 

[jrry32]

Seriously? Accountability means you don't do your job as well or that you are reluctant to make decisions? That's an interesting thought. Not a reality based thought - but an interesting one.

Having no accountability allows you to look at things with a more objective point of view. If I'm not accountable for the Tavon Austin pick, I can look at him and say, "You know what, that was a mistake." If I am accountable for it, I'm more likely to refuse to accept it is a mistake until it's too late.

There are a great many fans here that know football and given all the information may be able to make informed decisions. There are exactly zero on here that know enough specifics to do just that. It's not a slight on the fans here or anywhere else. Don't try to make it out to be.

I think all of us who watch the Rams every week are informed enough to know whether we should retain Fisher. He's judged by the results on the field. We have over 4.5 years to judge him on.

No - NOT just one team other than us. 13 teams have never won a SB. 4 teams have never even played in one. Another 7 teams have made it to exactly one SB. Many others have rarely been in the playoffs. There is no magic pill and I'm guessing the people running those organizations knew/know more than anyone on an internet forum. I'm also guessing they had a heightened sense of urgency when it came to trying to win games.

You're moving the goal-posts, my friend. You said many teams haven't sniffed the post-season. Other than us and Cleveland, who hasn't sniffed the post-season over the past 5-10 years?(hell, even Cleveland sniffed the post-season in 2007)

The Bills are currently sniffing it and were close under Doug Marrone. The Lions have been to the post-season and are currently leading their division. The Raiders have all but locked up a spot in the playoffs. Who else is there other than us and the Browns?

You can look down on people on internet forums, but football isn't rocket science. I know guys who are more than knowledgeable enough and good enough at this to work in the NFL. I know guys in the NFL who have no business being there. The NFL is a good ole boys league. There are a lot of people in Front Offices right now who aren't there because they're the smartest guy in the room.

So we can all act like we have the answers BECAUSE we have zero accountability for them. Those that are accountable try and fail more often than they succeed and it is not from knowing less than the fans.

That's true. It's from not being as good at it as some fans.

 

[jrry32]

Dallas - After going 12-4 in 2014 they lost Romo for 13 ½ games in 2015. They went 4-12 (Romo won 3 of those starts). Dak (now their franchise QB) and Elliot have done a great job behind that big O-Line.

Minnesota - Outstanding defensive performance in their first 5 games since then? 1-5. Bradford is not your typical backup either as he would start on plenty of teams.

New England and Denver - The few exceptions I'm talking about. We know belichick will go down as one of the best HC ever.

Yep. The Cowboys lost in 2015 because their backup options were terrible. Now, tell me what they did about that.

They made a concerted effort to scout and draft a highly talented backup QB to prepare for Romo getting hurt. And it just so happens that their backup has played well enough to keep him on the bench.

So don't use the Cowboys to make excuses for Fisher's failures at QB. It only portrays his failures in a worse light. It took one year of Romo being hurt for the Cowboys to find a guy who can start and provide quality play for them. Now, the Cowboys got lucky to some extent. But what's relevant here is the motivation.

Fisher could have done that. After Bradford's injury in 2013, Fisher could have decided to make it a priority to draft a QB because of Bradford's injury history. Look at the QBs who fell that year. We could have traded up from our pick in the 2nd round for Teddy Bridgewater or Derek Carr. We could have stood pat and drafted Jimmy Garoppolo.

Fisher had plenty of chances to fix the QB position. He failed. He finally succeeded this past off-season, and then he wasted it by refusing to play Goff. That was his decision. He gets to suffer the consequences.

 

[jrry32]

I think there was much more to it and I don't buy that Harbaugh would be good as both a personnel guy and a coach. He reportedly had the last say in the draft and FA and the power play was partly if not mostly about some of his decisions in that respect.

That's certainly not the story I've heard. The blow-up happened because Harbaugh wanted final say. Baalke refused to give it up. Harbaugh was peeved about some of the decisions Baalke made. They had a power struggle.

I don't want Harbaugh as a personnel guy and coach either. But he wasn't responsible for blowing things up in San Francisco.

 

[RamFan503]

You're moving the goal-posts, my friend. You said many teams haven't sniffed the post-season. Other than us and Cleveland, who hasn't sniffed the post-season over the past 5-10 years?(hell, even Cleveland sniffed the post-season in 2007)

Mkay Mr. Literal. Then to be fair and not move the goal posts, I never said anything about the last 5-10 years and the Browns have been in the playoffs. Guess that doesn't fit the narrative either. The point is still the same no matter how you want to qualify it. Many teams don't make it to the SB, or playoffs with even close to any kind of regularity. It is not because the people running their collective shows know less than the fans. It is because it is damn hard to ACTUALLY do it. It's much easier from your keyboard or sofa.

You can look down on people on internet forums,

Don't give me this bullshit. No one is looking down on fans except for you looking down on those who don't see your infinite wisdom on this.

I know guys who are more than knowledgeable enough and good enough at this to work in the NFL. I know guys in the NFL who have no business being there. The NFL is a good ole boys league. There are a lot of people in Front Offices right now who aren't there because they're the smartest guy in the room.

Yeah - probably not - but okay.

That's true. It's from not being as good at it as some fans.

Yeah - those fans are really good at it. Wait a minute. Good at what exactly? Seeing that we need to change the HC? Good at suggesting who might be a good replacement? Man! If Stan only knew that was all you needed.

Fans are not good at this. Even the many who suggest we need a change would probably acknowledge that freely. It's not a knock on fans at all. It's common sense.

That's certainly not the story I've heard. The blow-up happened because Harbaugh wanted final say. Baalke refused to give it up. Harbaugh was peeved about some of the decisions Baalke made. They had a power struggle.

I don't want Harbaugh as a personnel guy and coach either. But he wasn't responsible for blowing things up in San Francisco.

Yeah - Harbaugh was completely innocent. It was all Baalke's power play. Come on man. Harbaugh is a pretty damn good coach. But word was he was a total ass to deal with and he wanted not only final say in personnel but throughout the entire process. It doesn't much matter. I just found it entertaining when it was going on because.... welp... we are talking about the whiners.

 

[Young Ram]

Yep. The Cowboys lost in 2015 because their backup options were terrible. Now, tell me what they did about that.

They made a concerted effort to scout and draft a highly talented backup QB to prepare for Romo getting hurt. And it just so happens that their backup has played well enough to keep him on the bench.

So don't use the Cowboys to make excuses for Fisher's failures at QB. It only portrays his failures in a worse light. It took one year of Romo being hurt for the Cowboys to find a guy who can start and provide quality play for them. Now, the Cowboys got lucky to some extent. But what's relevant here is the motivation.

Fisher could have done that. After Bradford's injury in 2013, Fisher could have decided to make it a priority to draft a QB because of Bradford's injury history. Look at the QBs who fell that year. We could have traded up from our pick in the 2nd round for Teddy Bridgewater or Derek Carr. We could have stood pat and drafted Jimmy Garoppolo.

Fisher had plenty of chances to fix the QB position. He failed. He finally succeeded this past off-season, and then he wasted it by refusing to play Goff. That was his decision. He gets to suffer the consequences.

Lol what dude you brought up the cowboys not me. I just gave you an example of how they were a playoff team with Romo then went 4-12 when he got hurt. Plus if you look at it, Garrett took 6 years to find an adequate backup. And that back up is now their potential next franchise QB. Luck indeed.

What about Minnesota then? You think Shaun Hill would have had the Vikings at 6-5 or better?

 

[oldrammer]

Who wrote that crap?

I believe if they rehire this very bad coach, they will continue on the same path to the bottom.

 

[jrry32]

Lol what dude you brought up the cowboys not me. I just gave you an example of how they were a playoff team with Romo then went 4-12 when he got hurt. Plus if you look at it, Garrett took 6 years to find an adequate backup. And that back up is now their potential next franchise QB. Luck indeed.

It didn't take them 6 years to find an adequate backup. They had Tony Romo. They didn't need to search for one.

You were begging me to bring up teams like the Cowboys. You've begged people to in just about every thread. You've been on this "we can't fire Fisher because the QBs have sucked and it's out of his control that we're losing" narrative for awhile now.

What about Minnesota then? You think Shaun Hill would have had the Vikings at 6-5 or better?

Nope. But I also think Shaun Hill is an inadequate backup QB. As did the Vikings. What did they do about it?

You've made this argument before. Your defense of Fisher is to always point to it not being possible to win with the QBs he's had. As I've pointed out many times, your argument's flaw is that they were the QBs he chose. He had 5 years to get it right.

 

[jrry32]

Mkay Mr. Literal. Then to be fair and not move the goal posts, I never said anything about the last 5-10 years and the Browns have been in the playoffs. Guess that doesn't fit the narrative either. The point is still the same no matter how you want to qualify it. Many teams don't make it to the SB, or playoffs with even close to any kind of regularity. It is not because the people running their collective shows know less than the fans. It is because it is damn hard to ACTUALLY do it. It's much easier from your keyboard or sofa.

When did the Browns make the playoffs in the past 5-10 years?

You're moving the goal-posts again. None of us are demanding Fisher be fired for failing to make the playoffs once or twice. We're demanding he be fired because he's 0 for 4 (soon to be 5) on playoff appearances, winning seasons, and .500 seasons. The Rams haven't made the playoffs in over a decade. The Rams haven't had a winning season in over a decade. We're not talking about regularity. We're talking about people asking for ONE appearance in a decade. I think every single one of us would be fine with keeping Fisher if he led the Rams to a 10 win season this year and the playoffs. That's 1 out of 5.

As much as you repeat that the people running the show are experts and know so much more than the fans, it's not getting anywhere with me. It's simply not true. You ever watch Matt Millen do NFL Draft analysis? How about Jerry Angelo? Matt Millen was a NFL GM for 8 years. Jerry Angelo was a NFL GM for 11 years. Neither of those guys are particularly good talent evaluators. I know fans who are far better than either.

Like I said before, this is football, not rocket science.

Don't give me this bullcrap. No one is looking down on fans except for you looking down on those who don't see your infinite wisdom on this.

Spare me. You've spent the past few posts telling us all that fans don't know shit. I may think your point of view is warped (especially those who think Fisher needs to stay), but I don't look down on anybody here. I respect just about every poster on this board. That includes people like Young Ram who I strongly disagree with in this thread.

Yeah - probably not - but okay.

I absolutely do. But continue putting these guys on a pedestal. You'd be shocked at how many unqualified people there are working in the NFL.

Yeah - those fans are really good at it. Wait a minute. Good at what exactly? Seeing that we need to change the HC? Good at suggesting who might be a good replacement? Man! If Stan only knew that was all you needed.

Fans are not good at this. Even the many who suggest we need a change would probably acknowledge that freely. It's not a knock on fans at all. It's common sense.

Really good at evaluating talent. There are fans out there who are quite good at it. It's funny because you couldn't draft much worse than the Rams did during the 2000s if you tried. There were a ton of fans out there who could have picked better players than we did.

Again, you put these guys on a pedestal. Some of them are quite smart and talented. Some of them are not.

Yeah - Harbaugh was completely innocent. It was all Baalke's power play. Come on man. Harbaugh is a pretty damn good coach. But word was he was a total ass to deal with and he wanted not only final say in personnel but throughout the entire process. It doesn't much matter. I just found it entertaining when it was going on because.... welp... we are talking about the whiners.

This is a strawman. I didn't say Harbaugh was innocent. Harbaugh was/is an asshole. He was a pain in the ass to deal with. I said that Baalke and Yorke blew up that roster. And they did. I said that Harbaugh didn't have final say over personnel, and he didn't. That is what caused the power struggle. Harbaugh wanted control and power. Baalke thought the control and power should be his. Yorke chose Baalke. It blew up in their faces.

 

[dieterbrock]

You've made this argument before. Your defense of Fisher is to always point to it not being possible to win with the QBs he's had. As I've pointed out many times, your argument's flaw is that they were the QBs he chose. He had 5 years to get it right.

So true.
Fisher brings in lousy QB, who play lousy and then he doesn't take blame? How's that work?
And Fisher himself said that had Keenum played all of 2015, they would have been a playoff team. Fisher's evaluation of Keenum is an indictment of his inadequacy

Another even better example is our very own Rams

So true. Rich Brooks only had 2 seasons, and played 5 different QB. Who's looking back at that saying we made a mistake by bringing in Vermeil? I mean Brooks record was significantly better than Knox, and in fact better than Vermeil in his 1st 2 seasons
Or again, the Rams moved from LA to St Louis, had to play in an outdoor stadium because the dome wasn't ready. They also had uncomfortable circumstances. Did they suffer from it? Nope, they improved by 3 wins
Or even still, they lost their 1st string QB and played a back up, who was Kurt Warner. Did they suffer? Nope, and when Warner went down and Bulger played, how did that work? Yup don't have to look past our own team for examples of why change and circumstance cant excuse consistant poor play

 

[blackbart]

I get the desire to try something new in the form of a HC. I am not opposed to it myself. But I'm also not convinced it is the dead certain positive step that many fans believe it is. Changing HCs does indeed generally mean a change in staff and with it a new scheme. Maybe that is indeed what is needed. And maybe it gets us no playoffs, 3 to 5 years down the road, and our roster being gutted by bad personnel moves.

Maybe another coach will come in and just change the Offensive philosophy and scheme. Maybe not.

My personal view is that there are no sure things out there. Every coach I have heard mentioned has his potential ups and downs. If they make the change - so be it. If they don't so be it. It doesn't mean I am defending mediocrity or delusional in thinking we also have a chance to be better and possibly even a perennial contender by sticking with Fisher. I have my doubts - certainly.

The bottom line for me is that I don't pretend to know I'm right either way so I don't get all worked up in professing my POV or in who I'd like to see take over.

So while we still have Fisher as a head coach, you probably won't see me come unglued on him or get too excited about replacing him. What I WILL do is cheer for my Rams and hope that we do indeed start seeing a good trend on offense and the team itself. I don't want to change coaches just to try something new. I'd much rather see this team turn it around and have the stability in addition to a solid staff and methodology. It may not happen. But I hope it does.

You wouldn't become a Jags fan????

 

[Young Ram]

It didn't take them 6 years to find an adequate backup. They had Tony Romo. They didn't need to search for one.

You were begging me to bring up teams like the Cowboys. You've begged people to in just about every thread. You've been on this "we can't fire Fisher because the QBs have sucked and it's out of his control that we're losing" narrative for awhile now.

I wasn't begging you to do anything. My argument was that if you remove the starter from winning teams then they most likely would not have a winning record with back ups not how a team finds an adequate replacement if such happened. I gave you an example yet you chose to ignore it. You can continue on with your straw man. I won't.

Nope. But I also think Shaun Hill is an inadequate backup QB. As did the Vikings. What did they do about it?

They gave up a first and fourth and yet are barley over .500. Plus they were a playoff team the year before. They had a team ready to contend.

You've made this argument before. Your defense of Fisher is to always point to it not being possible to win with the QBs he's had. As I've pointed out many times, your argument's flaw is that they were the QBs he chose. He had 5 years to get it right.

And he potentially finally got it right but it doesn't matter because it's year 5. Give me a break.

 

[dieterbrock]

I wasn't begging you to do anything. My argument was that if you remove the starter from winning teams then they most likely would not have a winning record with back ups not how a team finds an adequate replacement if such happened. I gave you an example yet you chose to ignore it. You can continue on with your straw man. I won't.

Arizona lost Carson Palmer and Drew Stanton went 5-3 and Arizona made the playoffs.
While Carolina was struggling, and Cam Newton out, they started Derek Anderson who won a couple game and they won the division. Last year, Houston started 4 different QB and still made the playoffs.
New England and Denver already mentioned.
So yeah, other teams have survived with backups and mediocre play.
But ultimately, you're missing the biggest point/failure here. When Bradford was lost for the year, and the back up was inadequate, that was when the team needed to groom a potential back up. But they didn't. When Bradford went down again, the backup play was inadequate and they again didn't groom a replacement.
When the Rams dumped Bradford for Foles, they thought Keenum was good enough. Fisher has had many opportunities to upgrade the backup because he saw 1st hand what happens when they play. and he didnt

 

[Young Ram]

Arizona lost Carson Palmer and Drew Stanton went 5-3 and Arizona made the playoffs.

Okay add them to the few teams.

While Carolina was struggling, and Cam Newton out, they started Derek Anderson who won a couple game and they won the division.

What year are you talking about? Was it 2014 when they won their division with a losing record? Lol

Last year, Houston started 4 different QB and still made the playoffs.

Okay a division where the Colts were probably the only legitimate team and Andrew luck only played 7 games. Still give props for O'Brien though.

But ultimately, you're missing the biggest point/failure here. When Bradford was lost for the year, and the back up was inadequate, that was when the team needed to groom a potential back up. But they didn't. When Bradford went down again, the backup play was inadequate and they again didn't groom a replacement.

They drafted mannion in then 3rd round after Bradfords second injury. They traded for Nick Foles that same year. Foles was a mistake and yea fisher screwed that one up. It's the reason we have Goff now.

 

[dieterbrock]

Okay add them to the few teams.



What year are you talking about? Was it 2014 when they won their division with a losing record? Lol


Okay a division where the Colts were probably the only legitimate team and Andrew luck only played 7 games. Still give props for O'Brien though.



They drafted mannion in then 3rd round after Bradfords second injury. They traded for Nick Foles that same year. Foles was a mistake and yea fisher screwed that one up. It's the reason we have Goff now.

It was after his 3rd injury. And how has Mannion progressed? Has he been on the sidelines in anything other than street clothes? Either a bad pick (he wasn't graded as high as the Rams took him) or they haven't developed him.
Again, that's on the staff
In any event, we keep adding teams that have survived with back up QB and yet we have another sub .500 record with Fisher

 

[FRO]

Giving Fisher a pass on the QB situation is silly. He picked the QBs. Also the offense scored their most PPG in 2013 and 2014 when they had their "backup" QBs playing a large majority of games.

 

[Young Ram]

It was after his 3rd injury.

Oh your talking about 2011 when fisher wasn't even here yet.

And how has Mannion progressed? Has he been on the sidelines in anything other than street clothes? Either a bad pick (he wasn't graded as high as the Rams took him) or they haven't developed him.

I don't know we haven't seen him play any regular season games yet. You can attribute to fisher not wanting to play rookies which I don't agree with.

Again, that's on the staff
In any event, we keep adding teams that have survived with back up QB and yet we have another sub .500 record with Fisher

Look if fisher is retained, and it looks like he most likely will based of off Demoffs comments, and he doesn't have a winning record next year I will be the first one to admit I was wrong.