The Goff thread to end all Goff threads

[PARAM]

PHENOMENAL article. Shows great insight and answers question's we figured we knew the answers too.

Sounds like Goff doesn't handle criticism well, and can't read a defense like we assumed was part of the reason he's gone.

It does make me eat crow that maybe he wasn't putting in the time, because it seems like Goff was. And I, I was wrong about that.

I don't think it was "Goff doesn't handle criticism well" and I say that because in the article some said, "McVay would blow up at him and forget to circle back". It reads like that's the natural progression of coaching.....and it is. Confidence is huge in sports, right after ability. Nobody likes getting singled out in anything. But that's not "not handling criticism well". If he was chastised for his performance and didn't get upset, just blowing it off he'd be considered uncaring and unmotivated.

They said in the article Goff worked extremely hard. Not having the confidence of your coach or perceiving you don't have it seriously affects things in a negative way. Clearly McVay had his mind made up 2/3's of the way through the season Goff was a goner, so he didn't bother trying to boost his confidence. And his admission he made mistakes in communication was probably all about that. The decision to trade Goff for Stafford was certainly not the wrong decision.

After reading that article, I thought, 'wow, that offense was so good, so unpredictable, so well put together and so new to the NFL that it masked Goff's deficiencies for 2 years'. After 2 years though, defenses were a bit more onto what to expect, both from the offense and from Goff. Makes me wonder how good it will be in 2021. With the addition of Stafford even if the 2021 offense were a more predictable carbon copy of the 2017-18 offense, the Rams would still be better than 2019-20. But I'm sure in 4 years, there have been many new wrinkles installed. Defenses might know what to expect from the offense just from film study of 2017-2020 but not how Stafford will react. It's going to be a whole new ballgame. I expect the offense to achieve 2017-18 levels and probably surpass them. And if the defense can remain tough, even if it's not #1 but top 5, what will that mean for our record? How many points per game do we need to win 12 to 14 games?

 

[HellRam]

McVay is a great coach, but he clearly made a mistake when he let LaFleur and Olson walk after 2017 without truly replacing them. Sounds like things wouldn't have been as problematic as they became if we had maintained the buffer between Goff and McVay.

Absolutely McVay is great. We also viewed guys like Martz and Pederson the same. Things can change but I hope they don't.

Agree with your point about Lafluer and Olsen. I don't know much about O'Connell but he does appear to be more of a yes man then a true independent addition to the offense.

 

[So Ram]

McVay is a great coach, but he clearly made a mistake when he let LaFleur and Olson walk after 2017 without truly replacing them. Sounds like things wouldn't have been as problematic as they became if we had maintained the buffer between Goff and McVay.

One thing about Mcvay is he has an ego.He has that fire in his belly.Those little man muscle can be flexed.

—Goff is a(& will continue) competitor. He steps up when ask.His toughness as shown in the PLAYOFFS was on display. I will not take that away from him.
- The Rams have had a NEW OC or Now a different QB every season under Sean Mcvay.

Goff- is light footed & has poor pocket precision.He is limited,but is excellent in the huddle,hard counts,finding the miss match & reading defenses.

I don’t know about all the drama. Olsen was excellent with Goff. Best thing in his career. I see Zac Robinson being that QB coach.Wolford is apart of what he brings as The QB coach.

Pisses me off he is listed as assistant QB coach.Robinson is The Man.You look at the 2 ex-QB guys that are gone.
This guy & O’Connell changes a lot being brought back together. Bryce Perkins is a QB I want to see in the preseason. He might bring a little flavor. Maybe not so much with Matthew Stafford though.

 

[Psycho_X]

You think the sideline would have been same if Rams were losing that game? He led them to 9 points and the D did the rest. Sorry, but if you cant tell the difference between a sideline happy for the kid and sideline supporting a player I dont know what to say.
Bottom line, McVay wanted Stafford, and he got him. That's all we need to know. Why that isnt enough for folks is just beyond me.

Not sure what to tell ya, all I can attest to is how I remember feeling at the time when comparing to events talked about in the article. Sorry that rubs you the wrong way.

 

[Giles]

'Some decisions work; some don't': Why Rams' Sean McVay-Jared Goff partnership eroded

In 2018, Goff and McVay led the Rams to the Super Bowl and looked to have built a permanent foundation. Two years later, the QB was gone. Where did it all go wrong?

www.espn.com

Just saw this and thought it was a good read on what prompted the Rams to trade Goff. It seems to confirm what most of us already know, but adds a little bit more on just how frustrated McVay got with Goff and their relationship dynamic.

That article says more about mcvay than it does goff. If that article is 100% true (which I highly doubt it is) then mcvay handled this situation in the worst possible way and explains goffs poor play and overall team morale. If this is how he treats players especially quarterbacks then he'll never be able to develop a young one.

 

[Giles]

0 turnovers. His stat line is actually pretty close to Goff's great performance in Lambeau this year.

0 points. That's all you need to know about the offense that game.

 

[LA_Rams_#29]

And again, there's where McVay is too much like his mentor, Gruden. It's not so much a "limitation" when it comes to reading defenses as it is inexperience. The more you see, the less you are surprised. Pocket passers don't have the ability to scramble their way out of being fooled. That's why it takes longer for them to develop. People remember pocket passers for the players they became when they hit their primes. They don't remember the volatile early years. McVay is getting his veteran QB, but at a high cost.

I agree with what you're saying to an extent.... but I'd also paint McVay with the "lack of experience" brush as well. I mean such a young coach and still I believe we just completed the 6th season in his life that he's been a primary play caller. I always balance the praise people justifiably place on McVay with the fact that he is still an inexperienced play caller without a veteran offensive assistant with play calling experience on his staff. That's a reality that we need to consider when there are issues and not just blame the players. He's evolving as well as a play caller.

The other thing I'd add is that I believe McVay's impatience with Goff's ability to read defenses was heightened by the fact that McVay's level of support in Goff's ear deep into the play clock regarding reading defenses was so high. I mean I know coaches are in the ear of young QBs like that but it seemed to me that the level of support McVay was giving Goff in that regard was higher than most.....and higher than a guy that's been in the league a few years. I'd have less patience with someone I'm helping a ton....than someone I'm not talking too until the mic is cut off in the play clock.

 

[Psycho_X]

I agree with what you're saying to an extent.... but I'd also paint McVay with the "lack of experience" brush as well. I mean such a young coach and still I believe we just completed the 6th season in his life that he's been a primary play caller. I always balance the praise people justifiably place on McVay with the fact that he is still an inexperienced play caller without a veteran offensive assistant with play calling experience on his staff. That's a reality that we need to consider when there are issues and not just blame the players. He's evolving as well as a play caller.

You bring up a good point and is something people tend to forget I think. Hopefully this has all been a huge learning experience for McVay and he'll only grow from it.

 

[jrry32]

The other thing I'd add is that I believe McVay's impatience with Goff's ability to read defenses was heightened by the fact that McVay's level of support in Goff's ear deep into the play clock regarding reading defenses was so high. I mean I know coaches are in the ear of young QBs like that but it seemed to me that the level of support McVay was giving Goff in that regard was higher than most.....and higher than a guy that's been in the league a few years. I'd have less patience with someone I'm helping a ton....than someone I'm not talking too until the mic is cut off in the play clock.

From the article, it sounds like Goff also was frustrated by the micromanaging.

 

[WestCoastRam]

McVay is a great coach, but he clearly made a mistake when he let LaFleur and Olson walk after 2017 without truly replacing them. Sounds like things wouldn't have been as problematic as they became if we had maintained the buffer between Goff and McVay.

Yeah, to me, that was the most interesting tidbit in the whole article... I don't think Goff nor the entire offense every fully recovered from that.

I also feel like I noticed that once LaFleur and Olson left, half-time adjustments on offense which were once our strength diminished quite a bit.

 

[Angry Ram]

I know I'm in the minority here. But these reports of how McVay treated Goff are not giving me a boost in confidence on how I feel about McVay and his abilities to make adjustments and evolve. Who knows whats true or isnt. But these latest reports are some what discouraging.

For me it's exactly the opposite. Jared wasn't playing well. Too many TOs. Always said he needs to make better decisions. Never stopped. Sean gets pissed. Shit got real.

God. The Jets and the shitters during the freakin year all their top guys get put on IR. Dolphins with Tua who may or may not be on the team next year. I'd be pretty pissed too if I put in that much of my life into getting better and the QB fucking it up.

 

[Psycho_X]

It's interesting to go back and read an article about Kirk Cousins relationship with McVay and how it compares to what this article is saying. I think ultimately it just comes down to communication differences. McVay is a very energetic, bounce things off of you verbally while being very interactive and Goff is very quiet, unassuming, and not energetic to put it mildly. When things are going right everyone gets along but once things start going south for whatever reason communication is very important and you have to wonder if those personality differences put them on a crash course to this ending. McVay did inherit Goff after all and wasn't someone he picked. Going forward hopefully Goff can find a coach he can succeed with and McVay will be able to hand pick his QBs starting with Stafford for a legacy of Super Bowl wins.

Kirk Cousins, Sean McVay developed special bond with Redskins

Sean McVay's faith in QB Kirk Cousins when he was an assistant in Washington produced a relationship that changed the trajectory of their careers.

www.espn.com

 

[HellRam]

For me it's exactly the opposite. Jared wasn't playing well. Too many TOs. Always said he needs to make better decisions. Never stopped. Sean gets pissed. Shit got real.

God. The Jets and the shitters during the freakin year all their top guys get put on IR. Dolphins with Tua who may or may not be on the team next year. I'd be pretty pissed too if I put in that much of my life into getting better and the QB fucking it up.

I might be wrong here. But I believe Goff only had 2 turnovers in his last 6 games with none in the playoffs. He adjusted and buckled down there late in the year. Ironically, it was coaching and the other parts of team that failed when we got to the divisional round.

 

[dieterbrock]

Not sure what to tell ya, all I can attest to is how I remember feeling at the time when comparing to events talked about in the article. Sorry that rubs you the wrong way.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I dont take much stock in fans who criticize every move a player makes, and depict the outcome in accordance with their agenda. And frankly, the over embellishing of Wolford's play and effect on the game was a bit embarrassing. His meaningless run for a 1st down, putting his shoulder down to get that extra yard was a lot of fun. But that's all it was. Because the next time he tried it? Yup knocked out.

 

[Mojo Ram]

I never hated Jared. I respected the toughness it took at Cal for him to gut it out, getting smashed that first year in College. He steadily improved there. After Fisher's last year, he did well with McVay in 2017 and 2018. BUT, when the misdirection started failing, he looked like a lost duck, often. My gut would clench when he was running and didn't see the defender closing like a heat seeking missile, but it seemed that he was going to fumble when hit that way. The lack of a decent center in 2019 and 2020 didn't help him at all and I think he WANTED to do better, but didn't know how, for whatever reason. As thin and spindly as he looked, he was very durable for us. But, he lacked confidence of earlier years, imo, and he wasn't that good throwing off his back foot. I like Stafford because he can make those throws where he doesn't have time for perfect form in doing it. Stafford will throw INTS, but he can be incredibly precise in more situations than Jared, imo.

We are a better team in my opinion with Stafford than with Jared, but I would have been ok to have stuck with him of the trade didn't happen. He's a decent QB, who is someone rare in Rams history...

Good post. I supported him and believed in him until about the mid-point last season and i'm not the least bit ashamed of it either. Most of the fanbase were very patient but at some point enough was enough. I officially broke up with Goff during the Seattle game.

Not near enough instincts for a 5th year QB playing in the same system. I do think he's got a decent career still ahead of him. IMO he won't stay in Detroit long.

 

[Mojo Ram]

But we see their sideline interactions often.. and mcvay often looks baffled, but the characterization of the interactions this person is writing does not match up with anything I saw.

I agree. I recall many times prior to 2020 (when maskless lips could be read) McV asking Goff as he was coming off the field, things like "What happened?" or "What was that?"

Pretty much the same questions i was asking. Lol.

 

[Mackeyser]

I didn't get that at all.

The article says he did struggle occasionally when Goff first had to read 0 coverage, but that's about it.
Goff and McVay had differences on play calling and game plan.
We've seen this before.
Take Rogers for example. He's much happier and even improved this past year, due to the fact that he has input in what plays he likes to run.

As far as putting in the time? The article said he did.

As far as Goff not having thick skin. It did seem that Goff didn't react well to the yelling and constant criticism.
The article talked about how Lafleur and Taylor were a good buffer between Goff and McVay.
Having 5 qb coaches in 5 years didn't exactly help.

That's something that McVay is gonna have to be better about going forward.

The Gruden tree is EXCEPTIONALLY hard on QBs and that mess won't cut it after Stafford.

I think Stafford is a perfect fit and McVay won't have those issues. However, when Stafford is done, he'll need a Wolford... someone as insanely dedicated as he is or it won't work.

Chucky never liked rookie QBs and always preferred vets. I get that.

As a parent, I love babies. I just get them. When my new grandbaby is wailing up a storm, everyone looks to me to calm her down and almost every time I can calm her within a few moments. My mom, otoh, just really didn't like the whole baby time. She preferred once I was able to speak and exercise some agency.

I'm not calling rookie QBs babies. Rather, I'm using the analogy that younger QBs are faced with different challenges. The NFL has never been more complicated often new QBs don't have the language or tools built up to communicate what they need. Couple that with Zennials (late millennials and early Gen Z) players have for the most part not grown up around the McVay kind of intensity and what starts out well can quickly sour.

This has the potential to be McVay's Achilles heal... and the one drawback to Stafford is that I don't think McVay will have to do ANY personal communication adjustments or improve on that beyond tailoring the message to Stafford. And while that should speed things up for Matthew, it has the potential to further alienate McVay from relating to the next gen of QBs coming out of college. And if there's anything that can derail McVay, it'd be having success under Stafford and then having it all unravel with a rookie QB... because Staffords don't grow on trees and they aren't available every off-season. Not even close.

I really hope McVay uses this time to continue to grow his communication to match his intention, commitment and intensity or Stafford will merely be a stay in the downfall of McVay. For few other coaches is the mind meld between HC and QB more important than with McVay and his QB...and the onus of communication is on the one doing the communication.

I mean, we've all been around that person... family, friend, boss, relationship...w/e... and it was their mode of communication more than anything else that undid the relationship.

I really hope for all of our sakes that McVay works on this. It'll be critically important for our long term success.

 

[Mackeyser]

I don't think it was "Goff doesn't handle criticism well" and I say that because in the article some said, "McVay would blow up at him and forget to circle back". It reads like that's the natural progression of coaching.....and it is. Confidence is huge in sports, right after ability. Nobody likes getting singled out in anything. But that's not "not handling criticism well". If he was chastised for his performance and didn't get upset, just blowing it off he'd be considered uncaring and unmotivated.

They said in the article Goff worked extremely hard. Not having the confidence of your coach or perceiving you don't have it seriously affects things in a negative way. Clearly McVay had his mind made up 2/3's of the way through the season Goff was a goner, so he didn't bother trying to boost his confidence. And his admission he made mistakes in communication was probably all about that. The decision to trade Goff for Stafford was certainly not the wrong decision.

After reading that article, I thought, 'wow, that offense was so good, so unpredictable, so well put together and so new to the NFL that it masked Goff's deficiencies for 2 years'. After 2 years though, defenses were a bit more onto what to expect, both from the offense and from Goff. Makes me wonder how good it will be in 2021. With the addition of Stafford even if the 2021 offense were a more predictable carbon copy of the 2017-18 offense, the Rams would still be better than 2019-20. But I'm sure in 4 years, there have been many new wrinkles installed. Defenses might know what to expect from the offense just from film study of 2017-2020 but not how Stafford will react. It's going to be a whole new ballgame. I expect the offense to achieve 2017-18 levels and probably surpass them. And if the defense can remain tough, even if it's not #1 but top 5, what will that mean for our record? How many points per game do we need to win 12 to 14 games?

I like all of that.

The counter is that it took Aaron Rodgers an entire season to get comfortable in this system and Baker Mayfield at least half a season.

Especially if we don't have a full off-season, then I really hope McVay doesn't pull a McDaniel and throw the entire offense at Stafford, but builds it up slowly throughout the season.

anyway, I'll be relying on the D to win early and for the offense to come on like gangbusters late. Anything earlier is cake for me...

 

[Mackeyser]

From the article, it sounds like Goff also was frustrated by the micromanaging.

It's a bad catch-22.

Goff's missing things which doesn't foster trust, so McVay micromanages.
McVay micromanages which doesn't foster growth, so Goff misses things.

Even if their communication was perfect, I still think Stafford is a significant upgrade over Goff even if it may take a half or full season to fully see the fruits of that.

But once in that negative communication feedback loop, failure is imminent short of a radical intervention and that wasn't happening.

 

[Psycho_X]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I dont take much stock in fans who criticize every move a player makes, and depict the outcome in accordance with their agenda. And frankly, the over embellishing of Wolford's play and effect on the game was a bit embarrassing. His meaningless run for a 1st down, putting his shoulder down to get that extra yard was a lot of fun. But that's all it was. Because the next time he tried it? Yup knocked out.

I generally agree with that. I’m probably one of the top Goff supporters on this site the last two years and aren’t criticizing him. But I saw the writing on the wall after those last three games of the season unfortunately.