PREGAME Super Bowl 56 - Rams vs Bengals

[TexasRam]

"Shift the argument"? This has ALWAYS been a discussion about 2021 OBJ versus 2021 Higgins.

Yes, Higgins was more productive in 2021. Because he's a better player today.

W-R-O-N-G. I've already posted the numbers.

Amazing. You ignore every WR stat but receiving TDs. If that's the logic we're using, Cooper Kupp was a worse WR than Greg Ward in 2020. Kupp had 3 receiving TDs versus Ward's 6. We both know that's a ridiculous argument. I am in total disbelief you're sticking with this approach.

Haha. It's all good bro, we still love you. There is no need to get so heated when someone disagrees with you

I was never making an arguement about 2021 production. Perhaps you were. You are right on total 2021 production. No one is arguing that. It is not a valid comparison if you are honest with yourself. I stated it in the last post.

It requires a bit of tunnel vision in my opinion to disregard the situation OBJ was dealing with in Cleveland with his injuries and Mayfield's injuries. Not to mention the obvious. OBJ was traded mid season. Of course this greatly impacts his 2021 overall bottom line stats. The true comparison is when this current OBJ gets acclimated into OUR offense which takes time.

I was responding to your statement:

"Higgins is better than OBJ, and Boyd is better than Van. Cooper is better than Chase, but Chase is still a monster." -JRRY

You did later reclassify the arguement as 2021. But the statement above is what I was responding to. I think the fairest way to evaluate a player is to judge them within the context of their whole career and then cast that into the framework of their current system and health. I am not judging the Mayfield OBJ I am judging the new Mcvay/Stafford OBJ with knowledge of his pre Cleveland situation. Which most analysts appear to be doing right now. This current OBJ is the real OBJ that we saw earlier in his career before he went and died in Cleveland.

Odell first 3 years:
3 pro bowls 1300 yards and 12 TD's per year

Higgins first 2 years:
NO pro bowls 950 yards 6 TD per year average.

The stats and the NFL voters certified OBJ as an elite WR. OBJ still has the hardware and stats to show he put up #1 WR numbers in his first 3 years. Higgins stats show a solid #2 WR right now. That is it. He is not in a Pro Bowl nor has he ever been in any discussion about being a top WR like OBJ has. Will he get there as a late bloomer? Maybe. It's possible.

Notice closely, for the third time now, I detail yards and TD's not just TD's. So please don't mischaracterize my arguement. If I compare only TD numbers side by side in one paragraph it's because at that moment I am comparing TD numbers. I have always included yards in my comparisons and you know that.

Now, if by "Higgins is better than OBJ" you mean currently right now in 2021 then lets look at the playoffs. That is current.

OBJ 239 yards 1 TD.
Higgins 209 0 TD.

So OBJ is superior in early career comparison (with hardware and stats to prove it) and they are very even in current playoff performance - OBJ with the slight edge pending the Super Bowl. Higgins doing this with two years in the system and OBJ with a mid season crash course.

So if you want to make an arguement based on OBJ's stats while in Cleveland and games in which he was getting 30 snaps per game with the Rams before he knew the full playbook, let me make this clear - have fun bro. I will NOT being arguing that. Context matters to me in comparisons such as these. They should to you to if you have integrity. If you want to compare an injured WR with a broken down Mayfield (83 QB rating) and a run first offense to a WR in a passing offense with Joe Burrow (108.3 QB rating) then you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[jrry32]

Haha. It's all good bro, we still love you. There is no need to get so heated when someone disagrees with you

I get heated when somebody repeatedly accuses me of making a mistake when I am clearly right. 14 + 3 = 17, right?

"Higgins is better than OBJ, and Boyd is better than Van. Cooper is better than Chase, but Chase is still a monster." -JRRY

You did later reclassify the arguement as 2021. But the statement above is what I was responding to. I think the fairest way to evaluate a player is to judge them within the context of their whole career and then cast that into the framework of their current system and health. I am not judging the Mayfield OBJ I am judging the new Mcvay/Stafford OBJ with knowledge of his pre Cleveland situation. Which most analysts appear to be doing right now. This current OBJ is the real OBJ that we saw earlier in his career before he went and died in Cleveland.

I didn't reclassify the argument into anything. It's the 2021-22 season. I said Higgins IS better than OBJ. Not Higgins WAS better than OBJ. The present tense makes it abundantly clear I am talking about right now. OBJ's statistics in 2014, 2015, and 2016 are irrelevant to the player he is today.

Notice closely, for the third time now, I detail yards and TD's not just TD's. So please don't mischaracterize my arguement. If I compare only TD numbers side by side in one paragraph it's because at that moment I am comparing TD numbers. I have always included yards in my comparisons and you know that.

You have only included yards in the discussion when talking about OBJ's production from five to seven years ago. Whenever we discuss 2021 as a whole, you suddenly omit every statistic but TDs.

Now, if by "Higgins is better than OBJ" you mean currently right now in 2021 then lets look at the playoffs. That is current.

We have an entire season's worth of games that are current. You're cherry picking.

So if you want to make an arguement based on OBJ's stats while in Cleveland and games in which he was getting 30 snaps per game with the Rams before he knew the full playbook, let me make this clear - have fun bro. I will NOT being arguing that. Context matters to me in comparisons such as these. They should to you to if you have integrity. If you want to compare an injured WR with a broken down Mayfield (83 QB rating) and a run first offense to a WR in a passing offense with Joe Burrow (108.3 QB rating) then you are barking up the wrong tree.

Don't preach to me about integrity when you continue to cherry pick numbers and try to argue based off of OBJ's statistics from when Jeff Fisher was our HC. OBJ is clearly not the player he once was. He's still a good WR, but he's no longer elite. The reality is that Tee Higgins's 2021 season is better than anything OBJ has produced since he left the Giants after 2018. Higgins is the better player today. The good news for us is that we have a pass rush that can make it very hard on Burrow.

 

[FarNorth]

I didn't make a mistake. OBJ played 14 regular season games and 3 playoff games. Tee Higgins played 14 regular season games and 3 playoff games. Do the math.

Absurd is arguing that OBJ is better based on numbers he put up from 2014 to 2016. Sean McVay wasn't even our coach in 2016. OBJ's last 1000 yard season was in 2019. Miss me with this argument.

"Shift the argument"? This has ALWAYS been a discussion about 2021 OBJ versus 2021 Higgins.

Yes, Higgins was more productive in 2021. Because he's a better player today.

W-R-O-N-G. I've already posted the numbers.

Amazing. You ignore every WR stat but receiving TDs. If that's the logic we're using, Cooper Kupp was a worse WR than Greg Ward in 2020. Kupp had 3 receiving TDs versus Ward's 6. We both know that's a ridiculous argument. I am in total disbelief you're sticking with this approach.

There’s a simple empirical test which could be applied here. Let’s see who steps up in the Super Bowl.

 

[Merlin]

 

[OldSchool]

Looks like what AD99 does


View: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1489237237879369728

 

[jrry32]

There’s a simple empirical test which could be applied here. Let’s see who steps up in the Super Bowl.

I'm hoping Burrow spends his entire game on his back so we don't find out.

 

[Merlin]

It's a joke that they caved this year to pressure to find someone new for defensive MVP. Because it's still Donald.

 

[jrry32]

It's a joke that they caved this year to pressure to find someone new for defensive MVP. Because it's still Donald.

Hard to beat a guy who tied the sack record, even if Donald was better on a play-to-play basis.

 

[Merlin]

Yeah that is true but I value pressures more than sacks. Moving QBs off their spot as many plays as you can is the game for those guys. Sacks are just when things align for you to make the tackle.

I think really it has been building though, to get someone else the trophy. But AD brings that interior pressure which is more effective at disrupting the QB too. Plus he routinely leads in pressures. He's probably gonna be the real MVP for another year if they keep Von around too while we have Gaines and Robinson.

 

[Karate61]

On another note, the Rams are 11-0 this season when Stafford has a quarterback rating or 100 or higher. Let's Go Stafford!

 

[Neil039]

It’s insane how the “Sports Media” professionals are pumping up the Bengals. They will discuss the plus and minuses on each team with the Rams coming out on top then immediately pick the Bengals. Freaking Frustrating!

 

[Merlin]

It’s insane how the “Sports Media” professionals are pumping up the Bengals. They will discuss the plus and minuses on each team with the Rams coming out on top then immediately pick the Bengals. Freaking Frustrating!

This is what we want. Rams have stars, disrespect will sharpen them.

 

[TexasRam]

I get heated when somebody repeatedly accuses me of making a mistake when I am clearly right. 14 + 3 = 17, right?

I didn't reclassify the argument into anything. It's the 2021-22 season. I said Higgins IS better than OBJ. Not Higgins WAS better than OBJ. The present tense makes it abundantly clear I am talking about right now. OBJ's statistics in 2014, 2015, and 2016 are irrelevant to the player he is today.

You have only included yards in the discussion when talking about OBJ's production from five to seven years ago. Whenever we discuss 2021 as a whole, you suddenly omit every statistic but TDs.

We have an entire season's worth of games that are current. You're cherry picking.

Don't preach to me about integrity when you continue to cherry pick numbers and try to argue based off of OBJ's statistics from when Jeff Fisher was our HC. OBJ is clearly not the player he once was. He's still a good WR, but he's no longer elite. The reality is that Tee Higgins's 2021 season is better than anything OBJ has produced since he left the Giants after 2018. Higgins is the better player today. The good news for us is that we have a pass rush that can make it very hard on Burrow.

Talking about a player in their current system is not cherry picking dude. It is RIGHT NOW. Not what WAS. OBJ is on the Rams if you haven't noticed. He is NOT on the Browns.

Current 2021 team:
OBJ in 10 games - 6 TD's (15 snaps in niners game) with limited snaps while learning the system.
Higgins 17 games - 6 TD's fully integrated into the playbook.

Last 10 games: (This is starting with the GB game when OBJ started getting more than 15 snaps)
OBJ - 523 yards.
Higgins - 869 yards.

So an honest evaluation of the last 10 when OBJ began to see normal snaps is Higgins is putting up 34 yards per game more but isn't scoring as many TD's.

So yea, if you want to project Higgins to be a better option then OBJ right now I get it. But to me that is not a reflection of OBJ but a reflection of the difference of time in the system and knowledge of the playbook etc. But OBJ has Higgins on TD rate.

Also, OBJ is only 29. His history shows his potential. Higgins reaching a pro bowl level is pure projection vs something he has done at the NFL level.

 

[TexasRam]

There’s a simple empirical test which could be applied here. Let’s see who steps up in the Super Bowl.

Yea well that's the funny thing about team sports isn't it. Players are dependent on other players.

One game aint gonna prove anything.

It should be interesting though. Rams with such an advantage in the trenches but the Bengals WR's and QB are very good and our DB's suck ass in pass coverage outside of Ramsey for the most part.

On the flip side, Stafford should have plenty of time to throw the ball but their DB's have been making plays.

 

[Rambitious1]

Their WRs and Burrow with time to throw scares me.

But is he going to have time to throw?

 

[OldSchool]

Tee Higgins is a really fucking good WR.

 

[Merlin]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqG4Z8heh10



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_lQb-T-gPw



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o44NIVhC02E

 

[OldSchool]

The NFL is unhappy that teams in back to back years are playing for the Super Bowl in their home stadium. To make sure this never happens again they will be moving all future Super Bowls to Dallas and AT&T stadium.

 

[den-the-coach]

Tee Higgins is a really fucking good WR.

I actually believe without Woods, the Bengals might have a slight edge at WR, however, it's close and although the Bengal defense has over achieved in post season under DC Lou Anarumo, if you are patient, you can score on them and the Ram defense needs to sack Burrow multiple times to secure victory IMHO.

 

[BonifayRam]

NFC West Rivals Review: Rams built to contend for years to come

The Super Bowl, and the formal end to the 2021 NFL season, is rapidly approaching, and for the third time in the past four years the Seattle Seahawks will be at home watching a division rival play...

www.fieldgulls.com

The Super Bowl, and the formal end to the 2021 NFL season, is rapidly approaching, and for the third time in the past four years the Seattle Seahawks will be at home watching a division rival play - and hopefully lose - for the championship. In contrast, after winning consecutive NFC Championships and hoisting the Lombardi Trophy in Super Bowl XLVIII, the Hawks have yet to advance past the divisional round of the playoffs since the 2014 season.

So, with the full offseason still left to review the needs of the Seahawks heading into the 2022 season, between now and the Super Bowl seems like a good time to review what things look like for the division rivals. The best place to start is with the easiest of the three division rivals to review, because while fans and observers want to bury the Los Angeles Rams as having maxed out the credit card going all in for 2022, that’s not quite the case. There is no doubt that Los Angeles has certainly traded away significant assets in order to be in position to play for a world title, but even with the large number of headline grabbing trades the Rams have made recently, they have a ton of homegrown talent.

In fact, for the 2021 season the Rams had the most players drafted in house of any team in the league.

View: https://twitter.com/Jason_OTC/status/1488185083638996998?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1488185083638996998%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fieldgulls.com%2F2022%2F2%2F4%2F22917699%2Fnfc-west-rivals-review-los-angeles-rams-built-contend-for-years-come-seattle-seahawks-draft-trades


Specifically, of the 22 offensive and defensive starters who were on the field for the Rams against the San Francisco 49ers in the NFC Championship game, 15 are under contract for 2022, with a 16th who is a restricted free agent and thus under team control. The six starters from Sunday who are not under contract or subject to team control are:

• WR Odell Beckham Jr.
• C Brian Allen
• RG Austin Corbett
• OLB Von Miller
• CB Darious Williams
• S Eric Weddle

Of those, Weddle was a late season injury replacement, as Los Angeles lost both of its young safeties in Taylor Rapp (concussion) and Jordan Fuller (ankle) to injury during the year. Rapp may return to play in the Super Bowl if he is able to clear protocols, which would leave the team looking at potentially losing just four starters from a Super Bowl caliber roster. In addition, while OBJ has certainly come on strong in recent weeks, with 19 receptions for 236 yards and a touchdown in the postseason, he’s only starting because regular starter Robert Woods tore his ACL. Putting it all together, the Rams could be looking at losing just three starters to free agency from a potentially Super Bowl winning team.

That, of course, ignores the fact that left tackle Andrew Whitworth could retire, which would leave the Rams needing a new starting left tackle. To put into perspective how crazy it is that Whitworth is still able to play at a high level at his age, in 2018 Los Angeles drafted Joseph Noteboom to be the apparent left tackle of the future. However, Noteboom hasn’t been able to unseat either Whitworth or right tackle Rob Havenstein in the starting lineup. That said, he has filled a role similar to what Jamarco Jones has filled for Seattle in recent seasons, playing snaps at left tackle (780 snaps), left guard (494 snaps), right guard (10 snaps) and right tackle (58 snaps), as well as 29 snaps as a tight end in jumbo packages that featured six offensive linemen.

Whitworth retiring and Noteboom hitting free agency at the same time as both the starting center, Allen, and right guard, Corbett, hit free agency could potentially give the Los Angeles front office reason to worry in the offseason. They have young players on the roster they have drafted and brought in as undrafted free agents, but it’s no secret what happens when a team rolls with multiple first year starters on the offensive line.

So, that would appear to make the biggest immediate offseason need for the Rams up front on the offensive side of the ball. It would not be a surprise to see them retain one of Noteboom, Allen and Corbett, while letting the younger guys duke it out for the right to start at the other two spots.

That all comes together to mean the roster is likely to be competitive going forward, assuming they’re able to address their offensive line, so attention then turns to the salary cap and the draft capital the team holds.

Per OverTheCap.com, the Los Angeles is currently looking at being $13.7M over the cap for 2022. However, as noted, a Whitworth retirement frees up $15.5M and an extension for Matthew Stafford ($23M cap number for 2022 currently) likely combine to free up over $20M and give the Rams enough space to operate as they see fit during the offseason. In addition, should their front office wish to create additional space, they have plenty of flexibility to do so through converting base salary to signing bonus as needed. Yes, they’re looking at being tight against the cap, but they’re not a team that is afraid to manage the salary cap aggressively. That means wasting any time stating the roster will fall apart due to a cap situation when they are currently looking at having everyone under contract except Matthew Stafford and more than $65M in cap space for 2023 is a complete waste of time.

Turning to the draft, they are projected by comp pick guru Nick Korte of OverTheCap.com to have eight selections in the 2022 draft in Las Vegas, including:

• 3.103
• 4.141
• 5.174
• 6.209
• 6.210
• 6.212
• 7.235
• 7.250

That gives them enough ammunition to fill in the depth of the roster, depth which they have shown a remarkable ability to develop into contributing players in recent seasons. Whether they can continue with that remarkable development is likely a bigger key to their future success than any cap concerns. Of course, what is not a question is whether they’ll be willing to trade away future draft capital in order to fill in holes in the roster at the trade deadline next November 1.

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