Redskins Cheerleader-Gate

[bluecoconuts]

Do you think men that do those things are going to change all of a sudden?

Shouldn't we?

I'm being serious, I see this argument all the time, so I'm not picking on you specifically or anything, but shouldn't we men change? And shouldn't we men drive other men to change? Hold them accountable for their actions?

A few weeks ago I was requested to pull a security guard shift at a very upscale hotel in Downtown LA, it's probably the nicest hotel in LA now (it's also new). My job was to stand by the pool with another guard while some art fashion show went on.

The key word there is art, not fashion. Because there wasn't much clothes. And when I say not much, I mean none. The show was a bunch of naked girls with weird things on their head. These girls were models, very good looking.

My job was to stand between them and the small crowd of other artists there to make sure they had plenty of room to move around.

My job was not to stare at the girls or even watch the show. They would walk down towards me and I was to maintain eye contact, not stare at tits and ass all night. Afterwards my job was to take them down to their cars (dressed) so they could go.

I sexually assaulted or raped the exact amount of women I wanted to that night. Zero. It's not hard, really. It's not hard to not stare at tits.

So I have a hard time accepting the idea that men will be men, or we can't help ourselves, or you can't blame us for looking or being tempted. We're the smarter species on the planet, we know better.

To me anyone, girl or guy, should be able to wear whatever they want without suddebly being "asking" for it or shouldn't be surprised or anything like that. It's not their fault, it's the fault of the aggressor/attacker.

Shitty people will do shitty things, that's just gonna happen, and I get that. But I don't understand why men who don't do that type of stuff will excuse it as just men stuff. I'm not about that life, I don't want to be included with those people, why would I?

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like we're at a point we should be saying "Nah, fuck those guys" and shaming them, rather than making excuses.

 

[BadCompany]

I'm sure there are a lot more details to this story to come, but for the waiting five years part, I would say this; the world is a much different place now, today, than it was five years ago. Heck, it's a much different place than it was one year ago, really. The #metoo movement has seen to that. It's pretty clear that lots of men who were in positions of power over women used that power - or even just the perception of having power - to abuse women. Some of these women even spoke out when it happened. The first woman to accuse Bill Cosby did so in 1965. 1965!! Others reported him in the early 80s, the 90s, and into the new millenium. The first criminal complaint against him was in 2000, over eighteen years ago. More accusations would come in 2004, 2005, and well, right up until he was finally arrested. Nothing was ever done, until the #metoo movement started to push the needle.

(thank you Wikipedia)

My point is that women just weren't believed, or worse and more likely, people just didn't care. Five years ago the idea that these women had any recourse against the Redskins probably never even occurred to them, and if it did it's quite possible that they figured there was no point, and that the backlash against them would be more harmful than simply keeping their mouths shut.

Now I don't know if that's what happened in this case, but we can't dismiss it (yet?). Five years ago people didn't care about these sorts of things, which is probably why they went on with such frequency. To say "it couldn't have bothered them that much if they waited five years to come forward" is to ignore the cultural situation that we were in five years ago.

 

[jrry32]

You don't get it. Its not that men aren't expected to control themselves. Its that many don't and it wont stop anytime soon. I am not saying it is right............it's just the facts. Like I said, I wouldn't want my daughter in that position. Maybe you can do a scouting report on men that sexually assault women and use it to change the habits of men around the world. I love how you just jump all over me and accuse me of thinking it is alright. Lame

That's those men's problem. You don't blame the victims because those men won't follow the law. You go after those men and punish them harshly until they and the people like them stop doing it. Women have every right to be cheerleaders. They don't deserve any blame for jackass men not following the law.

I didn't accuse you of thinking it's alright. I accused you of blaming the victim. You don't say to a victim of a carjacking, "You shouldn't have driven a nice car. You invited the attention." You certainly don't say that sort of thing to a victim of sexual harassment (or worse). It's fucked up to expect women to alter their lives because some stupid pigs won't control their urges and follow the law.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Countless sexual misconduct go unreported and even when reported, many many times they get swept under the rug. You and your bunch of buddies discussing what you would do sounds like a severe understatement of the problem out there in the world. Do you want to keep your job? Can you afford to lose your job? Once you decide to leave the job, should you then report this type of behavior? But what if you get blackballed? Do you want this to become public? Your family, friends, significant other, co-workers might find out what happened. There are so many reasons.

Severe understatement of the problem....maybe....but...me personally....at work...something happens...that seriously offends me....and...yeah, I'm a guy...but I'm telling....
I remember a gig I had....first thing they tell me...is about the policies...conduct...I distinctly remember them saying, "yeah, and no magazine covers in the lockers....we don't do that stuff"....this was years ago....I remember being warned to never go into rooms alone....always have a witness with me when talking with subordinates....weird shit...all because of this type of situation...
I'm telling....not waiting 5 years....if I'm waiting...it wasn't that bad...JMHO

First of all, sexual misconduct is everywhere. Second of all, I seriously feel like you are trying to justify sexual misconduct. It doesn't matter if they are cheerleading for money. It doesn't matter if they wear revealing clothes for work. It's completely irrelevant to who is to blame.

I don't justify....I just am aware it probably occurs....and the best way to combat it...is to tell...waiting 5 years makes some doubt what may have occurred..

Girls get blamed for wearing revealing clothes, looking sexy, and doing their jobs. Cheerleaders, exotic dancers, pornstars, name it all. If you think somehow people in those industries should be partially blamed for sexual misconduct, I just don't know what to tell you. Pornstars get raped too. Don't blame the victims. It's a pretty good rule of thumb.

I'm not blaming anyone....
but....I wouldn't want my daughter doing ANY of those occupations....feel me? You increase the odds of shit happening....
It's like joining the Army....and being surprised you get killed/maimed in a war....there are "hazards" to sex-workers....and cheerleading...escorting....whatever...is kinda like a sex-worker position.

but shouldn't we men change? And shouldn't we men drive other men to change? Hold them accountable for their actions?

Ahhhh.....I learned not so long ago....you very rarely can change someone...that does not want to change themselves....some "men" believe that they are right....or perfect...or whatever severely wealthy guys think that make them treat people this way....use them with money...to do....things...our species hasn't evolved that far...

I got a story about accountability.....when do they learn it? Kids I mean....well, back to my old softball coaching....our coaches...don't bench players for underperforming....they don't bench kids for missing practice....they don't...we got the same players missing balls....striking out....everything...and won't play the 2nd string....cause that the way the HC does it...probably because his kid can't catch a cold....I tried to explain how he's missing a powerful teaching and motivating tool....he's missing a chance to make kids better...and he's setting them up to fail in high school....because he fails to hold them accountable....no matter what, our girls eat pizza...win or lose...and they love that...the whole country is going soft...no one is accountable...no consequences....

Telling immediately....starts to change that...no matter the "consequences" of telling...blackballed....fired....whatever...kinda why I respect Kaep....and Eric Reid.....they knew there would be consequences for their actions....and they choose to do what they did anyway.....which means they are serious about this cause...

Five years ago people didn't care about these sorts of things, which is probably why they went on with such frequency.

Really??? 5 Years ago sexual misconduct in the workplace wasn't huge? That's news to me....
5 years ago....I coulda sworn they were talking about campus violence...hidden rape statistics....

You don't say to a victim of a carjacking, "You shouldn't have driven a nice car. You invited the attention."

No....
Nephew had a nice car in HS.....they played a game at Washington High out here in LA.....he goes to Palisades....westside guy...soft as cotton....never had a fight kinda kid...you guys would love him....works at a law firm now...well, he tells me he's not driving to the game....Washington is in a real rough area....and I laughed and said, " this aint the 80's & 90's, you can drive...." He's like, "no I can't, they steal cars over there...."....and rides over there with some other kids....
Would I blame him had he driven...then been robbed? No....But it wouldn't surprise me.....And if he was robbed...I would hope he would tell right away....no matter the consequences...

You guys are all on a good slope of defend the accusers...but victims should come forward immediately....

 

[Farr Be It]

Shouldn't we?

I'm being serious, I see this argument all the time, so I'm not picking on you specifically or anything, but shouldn't we men change? And shouldn't we men drive other men to change? Hold them accountable for their actions?

A few weeks ago I was requested to pull a security guard shift at a very upscale hotel in Downtown LA, it's probably the nicest hotel in LA now (it's also new). My job was to stand by the pool with another guard while some art fashion show went on.

The key word there is art, not fashion. Because there wasn't much clothes. And when I say not much, I mean none. The show was a bunch of naked girls with weird things on their head. These girls were models, very good looking.

My job was to stand between them and the small crowd of other artists there to make sure they had plenty of room to move around.

My job was not to stare at the girls or even watch the show. They would walk down towards me and I was to maintain eye contact, not stare at tits and ass all night. Afterwards my job was to take them down to their cars (dressed) so they could go.

I sexually assaulted or raped the exact amount of women I wanted to that night. Zero. It's not hard, really. It's not hard to not stare at tits.

So I have a hard time accepting the idea that men will be men, or we can't help ourselves, or you can't blame us for looking or being tempted. We're the smarter species on the planet, we know better.

To me anyone, girl or guy, should be able to wear whatever they want without suddebly being "asking" for it or shouldn't be surprised or anything like that. It's not their fault, it's the fault of the aggressor/attacker.

crappy people will do crappy things, that's just gonna happen, and I get that. But I don't understand why men who don't do that type of stuff will excuse it as just men stuff. I'm not about that life, I don't want to be included with those people, why would I?

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like we're at a point we should be saying "Nah, freak those guys" and shaming them, rather than making excuses.

Good story, Blue. I believe you. And good for your restraint. Because, unless you don't swing that way, having a bunch of naked women parading around and focusing on your job at hand would require some discipline, and self- control. (probably something we partly developed in the military) And to be fair to some of the other guys' points, men are wired to be very sexually stimulated visually. I actually call BS on that whole event you worked. Not your role. You were just taking a paycheck to guard against some perv without control rushing these girls. Right? And good for you for advocating treating women with more dignity. I think events like you worked send mixed signals, though. Right?

The whole event was not "ART". It was a thinly-veneered perv show. Right? Isn't that the kind of event you say "Nah, freak those guys?"

My point is that women just weren't believed, or worse and more likely, people just didn't care. Five years ago the idea that these women had any recourse against the Redskins probably never even occurred to them, and if it did it's quite possible that they figured there was no point, and that the backlash against them would be more harmful than simply keeping their mouths shut.

This was why I made some of my early comments. It's all the rage now to come forward #metoo. But lost in this is a tendency to go too far, and ruin the lives of people in a frenzy. Wait for all the facts. Bad actors need to be called out. But mob mentality is not the answer. The attack on masculinity is real too.

"Let he who has never visited the booty thread cast the first stone."

 

[VegasRam]

Well. well, well...On the Today show (otherwise known as the Get Trump hour), this morning, we heard another side from a pair of cheerleaders who were there.
Some of us may want to put down the ropes and check it out.

(Or just continue on in your SJW mode).

 

[bluecoconuts]

Good story, Blue. I believe you. And good for your restraint. Because, unless you don't swing that way, having a bunch of naked women parading around and focusing on your job at hand would require some discipline, and self- control. (probably something we partly developed in the military) And to be fair to some of the other guys' points, men are wired to be very sexually stimulated visually. I actually call BS on that whole event you worked. Not your role. You were just taking a paycheck to guard against some perv without control rushing these girls. Right? And good for you for advocating treating women with more dignity. I think events like you worked send mixed signals, though. Right?

The whole event was not "ART". It was a thinly-veneered perv show. Right? Isn't that the kind of event you say "Nah, freak those guys?"

It wasn't some "perv peep show" or anything like that. It was a very exclusive show where people had to be invited and put on a list by the artists performing. Guests were checked in down stairs, escorted to the private rooftop bar and pool, reverified by another guard before they could come to the pool area where only myself and the head of security were there in terms of people not on the guest list, where they did their show.

While it was strange and I won't even pretend to understand it, it wasn't sexual. The "fashion" was the crap they put on their heads, that was the focus point to look at, which is what most of the guests were looking at anyway. I don't know why they were naked from the neck down, but artists are a different breed. To them it's not sexual, it's just the human body.

My father, who made his living as a Disney animator was the same way. In school they do a bunch of live nude drawings so they learn to be better artists. Live nude drawings aren't sexual, and neither was this show.

Nudity shouldn't automatically mean sexual. Maybe that's my point.

We're adults, we've all climbed this far on the social ladder, and our species have climbed to high enough branches on the evoltuationary tree to recognise the behavior is wrong, so why feel the need to excuse it?

I mean there are studies saying that nearly 80% of women are verbally harassed at some point in their life, and 51% are physically. 40% saying they have been harassed in the workplace.

I know several women, none of which are even promiscuous, who have all been harassed on multiple occasions. My own fiancee has been harassed at 3 of her last 4 jobs, and she is very much not asking for it.

It seems to me, like we need to start policing our own, and stop making excuses for these guys.

I don't want my future wife or any daughter feeling unsafe or getting harassed simply because they had the "audacity" to be born with a vagina.

It seems pretty simple. Don't harass, and hold those that do, men and women both, accountable.

Maybe it's just me, but I hope not.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter.

 

[LesBaker]

We will need a spreadsheet to detail everything for everybody HAHAHA!!!!!

 

[LesBaker]

It doesn't matter if they were just there to have fun and be pretty, it's still completely unprofessional, especially without prior warning.

I know, I just wanted to clarify because it's pretty obvious not everyone in the debate has read the article. They weren't having sex, so calling them escorts or hinting at that was over the line, in my opinion they could have chosen their words more carefully. They accompanied the assholes, there is a difference and I wanted to point it out.

They were there and never felt like they were forced to be topless. They were asked and they declined.

but the reality is that there were no repercussions if they didn't do it. But some of the ladies felt they were being forced.

Do you see that they felt pressure, you said it yourself.

Ask yourself "why did they feel that pressure".

Fear, intimidation.......what else?

crappy people will do crappy things, that's just gonna happen, and I get that. But I don't understand why men who don't do that type of stuff will excuse it as just men stuff. I'm not about that life, I don't want to be included with those people, why would I?

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like we're at a point we should be saying "Nah, freak those guys" and shaming them, rather than making excuses.

I'm going to say this to you. Because you are right on the money.

That was the best post in the thread because it raises the conversation to "why aren't we doing something about it". It is happening, slowly, but it's happening. We are living in an era of social change, significant societal change. Personally I find it satisfying to witness as it unfolds. I like that a light is being shined on racial and gender issues. We need to pay better attention.

Chris Long said "it's time for people who look like me to stand with people who look like him" or something to that effect when he was asked why he supported a black team mate kneeling during the anthem.

And it's time for men to contribute to this terrible issue that is sex related. It cannot be brushed off as "boys will be boys" or "that's just locker room talk."

Some of these women even spoke out when it happened.

Katie Couric mentioned Lauer's ass grabbing years and years ago. In an interview she was asked what she liked least about working with Matt Lauer and she said she didn't like the groping. The guy doing the interview laughed about it.

Nothing happened.

Directly to @bluecoconuts point. The guy that asked the question laughed.

The video is on YouTube so you can find it. Look at her face.

Bad actors need to be called out. But mob mentality is not the answer. The attack on masculinity is real too.

Bad actors are finally being called out..........and in the moment and the past. I don't see even a hint of mob mentality, except from some on the side that claims it's just boys being boys. Too many guys brush this stuff off. I also see no attack on masculinity either.

What I see too much of is "why did they wait so long", and I used to think that way until women that I know and trust (that would not lie to me) began talking to me about their own experiences. The attack has been on them my friend, and that's why up until recently women have stayed quiet. And predatory guys have taken full advantage of that. Especially the ones with wealth and fame.

 

[jrry32]

You guys are all on a good slope of defend the accusers...but victims should come forward immediately....

The implication here is terrible and sickening. I'm glad less and less people are thinking like this as we progress as a society. And I'll leave it at that because I don't want to risk a ban.

 

[jrry32]

What I see too much of is "why did they wait so long", and I used to think that way until women that I know and trust (that would not lie to me) began talking to me about their own experiences. The attack has been on them my friend, and that's why up until recently women have stayed quiet. And predatory guys have taken full advantage of that. Especially the ones with wealth and fame.

I was talking a few years ago with the college-aged females in my family. I don't remember how it came up, but all of them had been roofied at some point in their lives. One of my female family members came out during the #metoo movement last year and explained that she was raped in the past. She felt too ashamed and scared to report it. I cried reading her words. That should never happen to any woman, but when it's a family member, it hits so close to home.

It's easy to sit back as a man and make excuses. But you're not contributing to a solution. We need to stop finding ways to cast blame on the victims or finding excuses for not believing them. We need to start severely punishing the perpetrator.

I told my family member after her revelation that I loved her, I was there for her, and I supported her. I told her that I always have her back, and if she ever wanted to talk about it, I was happy to listen without judgment. I am a little relieved she never told me who did it. I don't know what I would have done to the guy if I found him, but it wouldn't have been legal. Scum like him don't deserve to live in our society.

 

[fearsomefour]

The implication here is terrible and sickening. I'm glad less and less people are thinking like this as we progress as a society. And I'll leave it at that because I don't want to risk a ban.

Second hand smoke as a reference point to the legitimacy of assault/rape stats.
Anyone interested in doing that research into manipulation can do it on their own.
I don't believe any reasonable person would defend people committing these crimes or bash victims. The ability to have a discussion about an issue without it being infused with (largely) useless emotion is getting rarer and rarer.
I would be willing to bet the two view points are very close together in reality.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

if the Redskins didn't confiscate their passports this would be a non-story.

Check this video to see the reality of the job:


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GsO7ieTZuig


I mean, i could see if they were flight attendants and someone asked them to take off articles of clothing while working the beverage cart.

Let's face it -- These gals are models. Models get gigs primarily due to their physical features - the other factors are their ability to articulate, their management, etc.) but it's their good looks and ability to use those good looks in front of a camera or on the runway. Top Modes in thw world show their boobs all the time - they also date football players and cheer for them in the stands - just google Giselle nude

To some girls it was just business as usual, but maybe for a young mother of two with her husband stock broker Blaze she might be repulsed.Yeah I get it. Don't take off your shirt. Don't escort some lame Redskin booster from Glen Burnie to the shindig

Back to the business as usual girl - the one who had no trouble taking off her top and create what she perceived as "art." She most likely would love to marry the quarterback (liek Giselle) or be Disney princess at some point in her life and is still open to the possibilities of both. Why ruin it for her? Or the booster who might be a dentist and single - i mean these things do happen. People fall in love and it has a lot to do with physicality, a moment in time, and some assets.

Other than that there is no report that anyone did anything out of line other than take the girls passports - totally f'd up and super sketchy.

All i can say is the Sexual Revolution is officially dead - let's all just wear monochromatic uniforms and be a bunch of eunuchs

DON'T TAKE CHICKS PASSPORTS

 

[OldSchool]

FWIW

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...nd-team-deny-pimping-situation-during-n871356

 

[nighttrain]

DON'T TAKE CHICKS PASSPORTS

 

[Angry Ram]

I sexually assaulted or raped the exact amount of women I wanted to that night. Zero. It's not hard, really. It's not hard to not stare at tits.

But this Redskins thing isn't this statement. FTR, I agree with everything else in your post I quoted this from.

I don't see anything wrong with what the cheerleaders did. Aside, from of course the whole passport thing.

FWIW

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...nd-team-deny-pimping-situation-during-n871356

This article makes it seems like it was just an appearance that all cheer squads do. And again, using words like "escort" and "pimped out" are making it seem worse and into something it's not. To me it's another social justice thing.

 

[Mackeyser]

I don't know what you think I am implying. But, I don't care if you are offended by it. To me it is just common sense. Any scantily clad women, who chooses to be a sex symbol is putting themselves more at risk for situations like this, than those that choose not to. Just because you think it shouldn't be that way doesn't mean it isn't. Or did you change the world all of a sudden, and didn't tell anyone?

These incidents may decrease a bit from all of the publicity, but they aren't going to stop. Prostitution and sex slavery is proof enough that many men have poor control over sexual urges. The richer and more untouchable that some men feel they are, the more they think that they can get away with it.

I don't see the waitresses art ihop being exploited by their bosses. At least not to this extent. Women deal with sexual advances all the time. I think these cheerleaders are taking much bigger risks than they should. Daniel Snyder is not an upstanding human being, and the choose to work for him as a sex symbol? I wouldn't want my daughter doing that.

This just factually wrong. It's not about opinion.

What a woman wears has no bearing.

As I said before, a woman's sexuality is hers and it's hers whether a man sees it or not. This thinking is how women end up in burkas... rather than expect men to be men and utilize self-control, the blame for men's weakness is projected on women.

As for iHop waitresses... waitresses in the least attractive uniforms get accosted/propositioned/harassed all the time.

As for women being sex symbols as cheerleaders, I take issue with that. When does that begin? At what point is it a girl being a part of an activity and then become a woman selling out her sexuality as if it's just a lower key prostitution?

Is it at this point?

Or maybe this point?

Or is it this?

Or does it not happen until this?

What's the basis for the parse? The $100/game? Age? It can't be attire because they all basically wear the same thing.

Lastly, as long as some men see women as sex objects and barely the sum of their parts, EVERY JOB and every moment a woman is in public becomes functioning as a "sex symbol"

 

[fearsomefour]

This just factually wrong. It's not about opinion.

What a woman wears has no bearing.

As I said before, a woman's sexuality is hers and it's hers whether a man sees it or not. This thinking is how women end up in burkas... rather than expect men to be men and utilize self-control, the blame for men's weakness is projected on women.

As for iHop waitresses... waitresses in the least attractive uniforms get accosted/propositioned/harassed all the time.

As for women being sex symbols as cheerleaders, I take issue with that. When does that begin? At what point is it a girl being a part of an activity and then become a woman selling out her sexuality as if it's just a lower key prostitution?

Is it at this point?

Or maybe this point?

Or is it this?

Or does it not happen until this?

What's the basis for the parse? The $100/game? Age? It can't be attire because they all basically wear the same thing.

Lastly, as long as some men see women as sex objects and barely the sum of their parts, EVERY JOB and every moment a woman is in public becomes functioning as a "sex symbol"

Which explains them make up, hair spray, tanning booth tan etc.

 

[LesBaker]

I was talking a few years ago with the college-aged females in my family. I don't remember how it came up, but all of them had been roofied at some point in their lives. One of my female family members came out during the #metoo movement last year and explained that she was raped in the past. She felt too ashamed and scared to report it. I cried reading her words. That should never happen to any woman, but when it's a family member, it hits so close to home.

It's easy to sit back as a man and make excuses. But you're not contributing to a solution. We need to stop finding ways to cast blame on the victims or finding excuses for not believing them. We need to start severely punishing the perpetrator.

I told my family member after her revelation that I loved her, I was there for her, and I supported her. I told her that I always have her back, and if she ever wanted to talk about it, I was happy to listen without judgment. I am a little relieved she never told me who did it. I don't know what I would have done to the guy if I found him, but it wouldn't have been legal. Scum like him don't deserve to live in our society.

Some of the things that have been said to the girl I have been with for the past 3 and a half years are just so far out of line the guys who said it need a beating. But of course they only say it when women are alone, never when they are with a guy. She would fit in perfectly in the booty thread..........and has had to listen to comments from guys about her ass her ENTIRE life. Since she was a teenager. College, especially the parties, were particularly rough because guys at that age feel like it's OK to grab or smack a chick on the ass after 4 beers.

She gets rude unwelcome comments in public, at the gym, in parking lots getting in and out of her car or just walking to a store. Even at the grocery store and it's even happened a couple of times when she was with her very young kids (aged 14 and 8 now so it hasn't happened in years.) with her!!!

And here's the thing. Not one of these dickheads actually think that saying something rude/demeaning/insulting/crude is actually going to get her to go out with them or sleep with them, they say these things to be rude because they think it's funny and they can get away with it.

These type of people shouldn't be in the gene pool IMO.

I would be willing to bet the two view points are very close together in reality.

I'm not sure about that. I think there are still plenty of people who think it's OK. Some have been caught on tape you know.

There are plenty of dickheads that feel like they can do things and it's "no big deal". Too many and @bluecoconuts is right these are women that need to have someone have their back.

I'll use the Katie Couric example. When she told the guy doing the interview about Lauer grabbing her ass he laughed. Why didn't he say "what, seriously? We need to talk about that."

But, he just laughed.

if the Redskins didn't confiscate their passports this would be a non-story.

This would have been a story with or without that.

 

[LesBaker]

@Elmgrovegnome Tiger Woods called and said lay off the iHop waitresses........

sorryIcouldn'thelpmyself