Not So Magic Mike?

[Stranger]

Samir Suleiman Claims Browns Reneged On Job Offer


Posted by Mike Florio on June 22, 2009, 4:02 PM EDT


Multiple league sources tell PFT and Tom Curran of our soon-to-be partner NBCSports.com that former Rams executive Samir Suleiman has made a formal claim against the Cleveland Browns in connection with the team’s failure to hire him earlier this year for a front-office position.

Suleiman, we’re told, claims that he was verbally promised the job, and that the Browns reneged.

Ultimately, former Jets employee Dawn Aponte was hired for the job that Suleiman had targeted — Vice President, Football Administration.
Media reports from February 2009 indicate that the Browns were doing background checks on Suleiman.

Though Suleiman is not under contract with any NFL team, he has filed a grievance with the league office.

I contacted the Browns over the weekend for their position on the matter. On Monday, Director of Public Relations Neal Gulkis declined to comment on the situation, describing it as a “league matter.”

Reached via e-mail on Monday, NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy declined to comment. (We sort of expected the answer to be, “It’s a team matter.” And then we would have done this.)

Contacted by Tom Curran of NBCSports.com, Suleiman said, “I don’t really want to comment on it.”

Suleiman could have — and arguably should have — filed a lawsuit, which would have been determined by a far more neutral entity. But much of the claim likely would have been controlled by Ohio law, which might not deem legally enforceable a verbal promise to hire.

Regardless, the Commissioner’s office likely will apply Ohio law to the claim, and the fact that the league office isn’t inherently neutral on matters of this nature will make it even harder, in our view, for Suleiman to prevail.

See the comments at..
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/06/22/samir-suleiman-claims-browns-reneged-on-job-offer/

 

[Ken]

Provided Snead and the scouting depth remained and Martz didn't have a vote in player acquisition (other than generic player types he desired, except for the possible exception of QB and WR), I would replace Fisher with Martz right now and not look back. I believe he is way underappreciated for what he did as an HC.

 

[Corbin]

There still seems to be lots of interest here in Mike Martz judging by some of the posts when his name comes up. Some think he was the best Rams head coach we ever had in St. Louis. His 53-32 (.624) record would seem to back that up. But then there's the 3-4 playoff record, the wacky timeouts, the bad draft picks, the front office feuds, the "Shoot, we'll fix that," etc. Here's a guy over at TST who doesn't think Mike was so magic. What say you?
***************************************************
***(To see all the stats, and there are lots of them, click the link below and scroll down)***

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike

Ramdude's Durdy Jawbs: Not So Magic Mike
By ramdude

"My name is ramdude, and this is my job today. I'll explore the Internet looking for dirt on people who deserve it — arrogant men or women who earn a living off the backs of civilized people like the rest of us. Now, get ready to get some dirt on ya." Tonight's episode is on Mike Martz.

Now that may sound remotely like something you have heard before - maybe on the Discovery Channel before September 2012??? If so, I'm sorry. Dave Barsky said I could.

While I've been a Rams fan since the late 60s, most of that time it has not been easy keeping track of the ins and outs of the team being at least half a continent away - plus I was busy raisin young-uns. I didn't know about TST until 2009. The Rams web site was pretty lame before that (but more informative about Rams history than now). And, of course, the Interwebs didn't exist for much of that time.

The reason I felt compelled to splain that is I have a severe reaction to the name Mike Martz. Whenever Fisher pulls a numb-nut and half the crowd here wants his ass canned, someone invariably mews from the back of the room, "We oughta get Martz!" That usually results in the contents of my stomach being spewed onto my keyboard - a strong reaction to say the least.

I don't remember all the details of his coachhood, but I do have three major takeaways. As I remember it, his arrogance manifested itself in three key ways:

1. Wasted or improperly used timeouts (clock management)
2. Wasted or improperly used referee challenges
3. Gradual, but methodical, eroding of the talent pool of one of the greatest teams in the NFL

One and two may not seem like that big a deal, but I remember them losing us close games back when we had the talent to make games close.

I've never really taken the time to study this period that started with a Super Bowl victory and ended 6 years later with Martz being told by management to stay the f#ck away from the team - ultimately being fired January 2, 2006. This ushered in the Linehan era we so fondly remember. So, I'm about to undertake the Durdy Jawb of reviewing the Martzian period to see if my innards are justified in expelling my dinner upon his mention. If you'd like to come along, get ready to get some dirt on ya. Here. Put this on.

We start where all Internet searches start - here in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. Now not everything here may be true. But if it supports your supposition - it's good enough!

Michael Martz (born May 13, 1951) started out as a high school football assistant coach, then bounced around several colleges as an assistant (offense oriented). He came to the LA Rams as a QB coach in 1992. When the Rams moved to the Lou in 1995, he moved too as the wide receivers coach - given credit for helping Isaac Bruce become BRUCE.

In 1997 and 1998, he was at the Washington Redskins as QB coach. That's where he hooked up with Trent Green. He and Green came to St Louis in 1999 when Dick Vermeil gave him his first shot as offensive coordinator. Vermeil was very gracious after the Super Bowl win and gave Martz full credit for his part in the win and for bringing along Kurt Warner so fast after he was pressed into service.

So everything is great so far, right? Martz knows how to develop players, and he appears to be very creative in using them - a la "Mad Mike." (Or was it that he had so MUCH talent, he couldn't fail with Vermeil ultimately in charge of things, and he took it all for granted?) Who cares? Life was grand, if a little teary. Be nice if the story ended there, undurdy.

So in 1999, the Rams went 13-3 and won a Super Bowl. Not surprisingly, Martz was named head coach of the Rams in February 2000 after Dick Vermeil temporarily retired from the NFL (only to resurface later with the Chiefs). What I was hoping to find was an overview of Martz' record for the next six years as head coach. Wiki, did not disappoint:

Note that in 2005, Martz took a medical leave of absence from the Rams after five games due to a bacterial infection in his heart. His assistant, Joe Vitt, took over the rest of the season, and the team went 6 and 10 for all of 2005 - the opposite of Martz' first season as head coach. He was prevented from interacting with the team during his leave, although he desperately tried to anyway. Ultimately, he was fired immediately after the 2005 season.

So on the surface, that don't look too bad: 3 winning seasons, 2 NFC West Championships - never worse than second, 4 play-off seasons with 3 total wins and a Super Bowl appearance (that we should have won). However, this was not today's NFC West. In fact the Cardinals and Seahawks replaced the Falcons, Saints and Panthers for the 2002 season. The NFC West was somewhat of a joke back then with teams bouncing up and down the division from year to year.

What is troubling is the fall-off in wins after the 2003 season. It's a fall-off that has continued for 11 years under 6 head and interim-head coaches. For what it's worth, it is a losing era that began with Mike Martz at the helm.

Challenge Challenged??
Getting back to my arrogance list above, I couldn't really find statistics on Martz' handling of time outs. However, time outs are interconnected to challenges since you have to burn one to get one. I was shocked to find that someone had kept track of every referee challenge Martz ever made as head coach along with the result. I am happy to provide the source: Pro-Football-Reference.com

Feel free to go visit and read about each one, should that trip your trigger. I'll just provide the numbers for each year here.

48 challenges/17 upheld/35% success rate

So Mike liked his challenges even though he was only 35% successful for his career. Many, you knew, were stupid right from the start, and some caused us to give up needed time outs or waste a precious challenge that was going to be needed later.

Here's the data on a few other coaches for their careers - from same source:

Pete Carroll - 45%
Jim Harbaugh - 34%
Bruce Arians - 62%
Jeff Fisher - 38%

Team Personnel Bleed-Off



Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.

I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?

So these are the guys who were on the team the previous year but not the listed year. Some of the more significant ones are in bold. Maybe you have a few others.
***(Click link below to see the names of the players and scroll down)***

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike

Here's the in-flow of First Round Draft Picks over the same period from Wiki. A few notables in bold.

2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State

a The Rams traded Trent Green, and 2001 fourth round pick (150th overall) to Kansas City Chiefs for the Chiefs' 2001 first round pick (12th overall)
b The Rams traded Kevin Carter to Tennessee Titans for the Titans' 2001 first round pick (29th overall)
So, looks like we had more going out than coming in. Alex Barron - puuullllleze!

A discussion about Martz can't happen without mentioning the beating he allowed his quarterbacks to take. He nearly ended Kurt Warner's career and he DID end Marc Bulger's. He also de-emphasized the running game with Marshall Faulk.

Summary
In summary, I can see how he could be held in esteem for his offensive coordinator skills - helping to develop Isaac and Kurt didn't hurt. But I think his ego got the best of him as head coach, and the Rams are the worse for it. He never saw real success as an offensive coordinator at Detroit, San Fransisco or Chicago either. I think he likely made Lovey Smith's life miserable while they were in Chi-town together.

So in the future, my stomach may be able to handle Mike's mention without trying to launch itself out of my mouth. But I'll neva, eva agree that he deserves another stint with the Rams.

Ok Where can I find this ass clown to let him have it? So much of this is trash and inaccurate.

 

[Rmfnlt]

The front office clown show was created and managed by shaw and his hand picked accountant zygNUT.

No coach in history would be able to sustain success with with that crew leading the way. No Coach.

Weren't those guys around when Vermiel was the HC?

 

[Rmfnlt]

Even more amazing than that, over 1,00 of those yards went to Mike Furrey in 2006...

And yet, he got let go.

 

[Rmfnlt]

But you see, that's my point. Martz was never cut out to be a talent evaluator. He would have been better off with a traditional, football GM. Someone who could have mentored him on team building.

Someone like Dick Vermeil.

Dick Vermiel had an eye for talent. Everywhere he went, he turned things around within 3 years... everywhere.
I don't know how much input Vermiel had vs. Shaw/Ziggy and I do remember them telling Vermiel to make some changes (Martz was among them, I believe).

So, I'm not sure how you can label them as nutjobs when they directed changes that resulted in the only SB win in franchise history.... we'll never know.

But, my take is this:
Shaw + Ziggy + Vermiel = worked. Because of the experience that Vermiel brought to the table with regard to evaluating talent.
Shaw + Ziggy Martz = Did not work. Because Martz did not have the experience or ability to evaluate talent. Between those three, the drafts killed the Rams for years to come.

 

[Rmfnlt]

In Detroit, didn't Kidna has his two best yrs ever as a QB?

In SF, there was the real Mad Mike as HC, and he wanted to go old school. Things were totally messed up in SF that year.

Ummm, he took the Bears to the NFCC.

Perhaps he doesn't have a job because he's not looking. He's also turned down offers to interview.

He's not looking and has turned down all offers and all the exits were happenschance.

OK, if that's how you see it.

 

[Ram Quixote]

Dick Vermiel had an eye for talent. Everywhere he went, he turned things around within 3 years... everywhere.
I don't know how much input Vermiel had vs. Shaw/Ziggy and I do remember them telling Vermiel to make some changes (Martz was among them, I believe).

So, I'm not sure how you can label them as nutjobs when they directed changes that resulted in the only SB win in franchise history.... we'll never know.

But, my take is this:
Shaw + Ziggy + Vermiel = worked. Because of the experience that Vermiel brought to the table with regard to evaluating talent.
Shaw + Ziggy Martz = Did not work. Because Martz did not have the experience or ability to evaluate talent. Between those three, the drafts killed the Rams for years to come.

You're forgetting Armey. Vermiel got along with Armey, whereas Martz did not. Of course, the problem there was that Shaw retained a veto on most personnel matters, no matter that the buck was supposed to stop with Martz and Armey. Not that Shaw was anything but a lawyer in the War room.

Sure, Shaw was the one who made the Falk deal, but a blind squirrel can occasionally find a nut in the dark.

Then there were the rumors that Shaw didn't want Martz and Armey to take Polamalu, because there was less value in a safety. That meant they took Jimmy Kennedy instead.

 

[MrMotes]

Dick Vermeil retired as the coach and the director of football operations, forcing the Rams to restructure their front office. John Shaw, the team president, promoted the longtime staffers Jay Zygmunt to director of football operations and Charley Armey to general manager.

 

[Ram Quixote]

Weren't those guys around when Vermiel was the HC?

Sure, but they seemed to think success meant they were on the right track, which was absolutely wrong. Consider the previous 9 losing seasons, and the abysmal 2007 & 2008 seasons, which ended the Zygmunt years. While you're at it, you could tack on 2009, when the Rams had so much dead money on their cap they could barely field a team.

 

[MrMotes]

As Prime Time posted, Jay Zygmut got a big promotion after Vermeil left. Things got worse after Martz was fired. They only (maybe) started getting better after Zygmut was sent packing...

 

[dieterbrock]

Love the Rams, can talk about them all day long.
But 2 things I just cant understand
1) Hate for Martz
2) Defense of Spags
And what really bewilders me are those who believe in both

Martz wasnt perfect, far from it. Some of his decisions drove me nuts. But we were awesome in large part to his scheme.
2004 team was 8-6 with Bulger and we won a playoff game in Seattle.
Defense was suspect but I sure thought the needle was pointing up.

 

[HometownBoy]

Love the Rams, can talk about them all day long.
But 2 things I just cant understand
1) Hate for Martz
2) Defense of Spags
And what really bewilders me are those who believe in both

Martz wasnt perfect, far from it. Some of his decisions drove me nuts. But we were awesome in large part to his scheme.
2004 team was 8-6 with Bulger and we won a playoff game in Seattle.
Defense was suspect but I sure thought the needle was pointing up.

I don't see hate.

I mostly see people saying that he's wasn't a good head coach, which is true and fair. Forget the argument on whether or not his ego pushed him out of the league, forget him running people out, all that is subjective and left up to interpretation and we'll never know the full scope from the outside looking in.

What isn't subjective is that just as quickly as Martz created the GSOT, he immediately dismantled it and our team suffered for it. He failed at many of the jobs a good head coach has to be able to do.

He was bad at talent evaluation, he made many poor personnel decisions, jumped the gun on moving on from Warner who got injured behind a line he dismantled by not focusing on until guys were way too old to contribute, drafted incredibly poorly to replace people who were leaving and generally didn't make decisions that help a football team.

You can argue that he didn't have a great support in front, but that doesn't negate his actions in the matter compounding on the already poor actions of the FO. All I see are people saying Martz was not an innocent bystander in the Rams' eventual fall from grace, which is true. He was one of many catalysts, he's not the worst by any means, but his part still played into 10+ years of mediocrity. That can't be ignored simply because he was a good coordinator otherwise the same could be said for Spags or Linehan, and we know that won't fly.

 

[dieterbrock]

I don't see hate.
He was bad at talent evaluation, he made many poor personnel decisions, jumped the gun on moving on from Warner who got injured behind a line he dismantled by not focusing on until guys were way too old to contribute, drafted incredibly poorly to replace people who were leaving and generally didn't make decisions that help a football team.

?? After Bulger replaced Warner in 2004, the Rams scored 29ppg and won 12 of next 14 games
Warner wasnt the same for several years.
Warner and Marshall both were replaced and yet the offense was still working
The wheels didnt come off the bus until Martz was long gone
Sjax and Bulger had their career best seasons in 2006. Would have loved to have seen Martz still there for that.

 

[Rmfnlt]

I don't see hate.

I mostly see people saying that he's wasn't a good head coach, which is true and fair. Forget the argument on whether or not his ego pushed him out of the league, forget him running people out, all that is subjective and left up to interpretation and we'll never know the full scope from the outside looking in.

What isn't subjective is that just as quickly as Martz created the GSOT, he immediately dismantled it and our team suffered for it. He failed at many of the jobs a good head coach has to be able to do.

He was bad at talent evaluation, he made many poor personnel decisions, jumped the gun on moving on from Warner who got injured behind a line he dismantled by not focusing on until guys were way too old to contribute, drafted incredibly poorly to replace people who were leaving and generally didn't make decisions that help a football team.

You can argue that he didn't have a great support in front, but that doesn't negate his actions in the matter compounding on the already poor actions of the FO. All I see are people saying Martz was not an innocent bystander in the Rams' eventual fall from grace, which is true. He was one of many catalysts, he's not the worst by any means, but his part still played into 10+ years of mediocrity. That can't be ignored simply because he was a good coordinator otherwise the same could be said for Spags or Linehan, and we know that won't fly.

Yeah... can't understand why people put words in other people's mouths.

I may have missed it, but I haven't seen the word hate in this thread once... again, maybe I missed it. The fans that believed Martz was a below average head coach have been pretty respectful of him. Now, they are accused of hating him? Really confusing.

Spagnuolo? Why is he being brought up in a thread about Mike Martz? Really confusing.

 

[Stranger]

What isn't subjective is that just as quickly as Martz created the GSOT, he immediately dismantled it and our team suffered for it.

what we don't know is how much the FO was responsible for this dismantling, and just how muchy cap mgmt was also a factor. Wha we do know is that the FO was highly dysfunctional, not very good at personnel decisions, and that Armey was promoted after Vermeil left. Too many variables to blacme this all on Martz.

 

[HometownBoy]

what we don't know is how much the FO was responsible for this dismantling, and just how muchy cap mgmt was also a factor. Wha we do know is that the FO was highly dysfunctional, not very good at personnel decisions, and that Armey was promoted after Vermeil left. Too many variables to blacme this all on Martz.

Fair enough, that did come across as heaping it all on Martz. There was way too much going on to blame it all on him.

 

[Rmfnlt]

what we don't know is how much the FO was responsible for this dismantling, and just how muchy cap mgmt was also a factor. Wha we do know is that the FO was highly dysfunctional, not very good at personnel decisions, and that Armey was promoted after Vermeil left. Too many variables to blacme this all on Martz.

From one of the articles:
"The offensive coordinator Mike Martz, the architect of the newly named Greatest Show on Turf, became the coach. Martz was given control of player personnel decisions, though Shaw retained veto power from Los Angeles, where he remained when the Rams moved to St. Louis in 1995."

Just a guess... one a scale of 1-10 (where 10 is complete control), I'd guess Martz was at 8. I doubt he got overruled much.

 

[dieterbrock]

what we don't know is how much the FO was responsible for this dismantling, and just how muchy cap mgmt was also a factor. Wha we do know is that the FO was highly dysfunctional, not very good at personnel decisions, and that Armey was promoted after Vermeil left. Too many variables to blame this all on Martz.

And Martz had never been a HC at any level, so he did have a learning curve as well.

 

[MrMotes]

I'm looking forward to the next HC who takes us to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years, 2 division titles,a SB and revolutionizes the game of football.

Even though he'll probably be an objectively bad HC, it will totally be worth it...