Not So Magic Mike?

[Prime Time]

There still seems to be lots of interest here in Mike Martz judging by some of the posts when his name comes up. Some think he was the best Rams head coach we ever had in St. Louis. His 53-32 (.624) record would seem to back that up. But then there's the 3-4 playoff record, the wacky timeouts, the bad draft picks, the front office feuds, the "Shoot, we'll fix that," etc. Here's a guy over at TST who doesn't think Mike was so magic. What say you?
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***(To see all the stats, and there are lots of them, click the link below and scroll down)***

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike

Ramdude's Durdy Jawbs: Not So Magic Mike
By ramdude

"My name is ramdude, and this is my job today. I'll explore the Internet looking for dirt on people who deserve it — arrogant men or women who earn a living off the backs of civilized people like the rest of us. Now, get ready to get some dirt on ya." Tonight's episode is on Mike Martz.

Now that may sound remotely like something you have heard before - maybe on the Discovery Channel before September 2012??? If so, I'm sorry. Dave Barsky said I could.

While I've been a Rams fan since the late 60s, most of that time it has not been easy keeping track of the ins and outs of the team being at least half a continent away - plus I was busy raisin young-uns. I didn't know about TST until 2009. The Rams web site was pretty lame before that (but more informative about Rams history than now). And, of course, the Interwebs didn't exist for much of that time.

The reason I felt compelled to splain that is I have a severe reaction to the name Mike Martz. Whenever Fisher pulls a numb-nut and half the crowd here wants his ass canned, someone invariably mews from the back of the room, "We oughta get Martz!" That usually results in the contents of my stomach being spewed onto my keyboard - a strong reaction to say the least.

I don't remember all the details of his coachhood, but I do have three major takeaways. As I remember it, his arrogance manifested itself in three key ways:

1. Wasted or improperly used timeouts (clock management)
2. Wasted or improperly used referee challenges
3. Gradual, but methodical, eroding of the talent pool of one of the greatest teams in the NFL

One and two may not seem like that big a deal, but I remember them losing us close games back when we had the talent to make games close.

I've never really taken the time to study this period that started with a Super Bowl victory and ended 6 years later with Martz being told by management to stay the f#ck away from the team - ultimately being fired January 2, 2006. This ushered in the Linehan era we so fondly remember. So, I'm about to undertake the Durdy Jawb of reviewing the Martzian period to see if my innards are justified in expelling my dinner upon his mention. If you'd like to come along, get ready to get some dirt on ya. Here. Put this on.

We start where all Internet searches start - here in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. Now not everything here may be true. But if it supports your supposition - it's good enough!

Michael Martz (born May 13, 1951) started out as a high school football assistant coach, then bounced around several colleges as an assistant (offense oriented). He came to the LA Rams as a QB coach in 1992. When the Rams moved to the Lou in 1995, he moved too as the wide receivers coach - given credit for helping Isaac Bruce become BRUCE.

In 1997 and 1998, he was at the Washington Redskins as QB coach. That's where he hooked up with Trent Green. He and Green came to St Louis in 1999 when Dick Vermeil gave him his first shot as offensive coordinator. Vermeil was very gracious after the Super Bowl win and gave Martz full credit for his part in the win and for bringing along Kurt Warner so fast after he was pressed into service.

So everything is great so far, right? Martz knows how to develop players, and he appears to be very creative in using them - a la "Mad Mike." (Or was it that he had so MUCH talent, he couldn't fail with Vermeil ultimately in charge of things, and he took it all for granted?) Who cares? Life was grand, if a little teary. Be nice if the story ended there, undurdy.

So in 1999, the Rams went 13-3 and won a Super Bowl. Not surprisingly, Martz was named head coach of the Rams in February 2000 after Dick Vermeil temporarily retired from the NFL (only to resurface later with the Chiefs). What I was hoping to find was an overview of Martz' record for the next six years as head coach. Wiki, did not disappoint:

Note that in 2005, Martz took a medical leave of absence from the Rams after five games due to a bacterial infection in his heart. His assistant, Joe Vitt, took over the rest of the season, and the team went 6 and 10 for all of 2005 - the opposite of Martz' first season as head coach. He was prevented from interacting with the team during his leave, although he desperately tried to anyway. Ultimately, he was fired immediately after the 2005 season.

So on the surface, that don't look too bad: 3 winning seasons, 2 NFC West Championships - never worse than second, 4 play-off seasons with 3 total wins and a Super Bowl appearance (that we should have won). However, this was not today's NFC West. In fact the Cardinals and Seahawks replaced the Falcons, Saints and Panthers for the 2002 season. The NFC West was somewhat of a joke back then with teams bouncing up and down the division from year to year.

What is troubling is the fall-off in wins after the 2003 season. It's a fall-off that has continued for 11 years under 6 head and interim-head coaches. For what it's worth, it is a losing era that began with Mike Martz at the helm.

Challenge Challenged??
Getting back to my arrogance list above, I couldn't really find statistics on Martz' handling of time outs. However, time outs are interconnected to challenges since you have to burn one to get one. I was shocked to find that someone had kept track of every referee challenge Martz ever made as head coach along with the result. I am happy to provide the source: Pro-Football-Reference.com

Feel free to go visit and read about each one, should that trip your trigger. I'll just provide the numbers for each year here.

48 challenges/17 upheld/35% success rate

So Mike liked his challenges even though he was only 35% successful for his career. Many, you knew, were stupid right from the start, and some caused us to give up needed time outs or waste a precious challenge that was going to be needed later.

Here's the data on a few other coaches for their careers - from same source:

Pete Carroll - 45%
Jim Harbaugh - 34%
Bruce Arians - 62%
Jeff Fisher - 38%

Team Personnel Bleed-Off



Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.

I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?

So these are the guys who were on the team the previous year but not the listed year. Some of the more significant ones are in bold. Maybe you have a few others.
***(Click link below to see the names of the players and scroll down)***

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike

Here's the in-flow of First Round Draft Picks over the same period from Wiki. A few notables in bold.

2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State

a The Rams traded Trent Green, and 2001 fourth round pick (150th overall) to Kansas City Chiefs for the Chiefs' 2001 first round pick (12th overall)
b The Rams traded Kevin Carter to Tennessee Titans for the Titans' 2001 first round pick (29th overall)
So, looks like we had more going out than coming in. Alex Barron - puuullllleze!

A discussion about Martz can't happen without mentioning the beating he allowed his quarterbacks to take. He nearly ended Kurt Warner's career and he DID end Marc Bulger's. He also de-emphasized the running game with Marshall Faulk.

Summary
In summary, I can see how he could be held in esteem for his offensive coordinator skills - helping to develop Isaac and Kurt didn't hurt. But I think his ego got the best of him as head coach, and the Rams are the worse for it. He never saw real success as an offensive coordinator at Detroit, San Fransisco or Chicago either. I think he likely made Lovey Smith's life miserable while they were in Chi-town together.

So in the future, my stomach may be able to handle Mike's mention without trying to launch itself out of my mouth. But I'll neva, eva agree that he deserves another stint with the Rams.

 

[DCH]

Martz shouldn't have had personnel power so early, but he was a very good head coach, and if you look at his track record, he was becoming a good drafter by the end of his tenure. I think the biggest issue, ironically, was that he didn't evolve his offense - he had a magnificent and evolutionary offense, but the league caught up, and his solution was to go more balls-out.

He also seemed to undervalue OL and WR talent a bit, much like the Patriots and Chip Kelly, believing that his system could turn anyone into a stud offensive player.

But... I believe he was moving in the right direction. Look at his last two drafts in STL:

2004
1 - SJax (HOF candidate)
3 - Hargrove (Very good player, just wasn't given time in STL to adjust to the NFL)
4 - Chillar (Starting LB for several years, not a bad player)
5 - Shivers (bust, 5th round)
6 - Smoker (backup QB)
7 - Jensen (bust, 7th round)
7 - Turner (rotational OL who played a little bit)

2005
1 - Barron (Serviceable starting OLT, not super great, but a worthy player)
2 - Bartell (Very good starting CB for many years)
3 - Atogwe (Excellent center-fielding FS for many years, at one point arguably best FS in NFL)
3 - Incognito (Good interior lineman who turned into a stud)
4 - Carter (OK safety, mostly a ST guy as I recall)
4 - Terrell (Not much of a player, deep backup guard)
5 - Collins (bust, 5th round)
6 - Ridgeway (bust, 6th round)
6 - Hodges (punter, 6th round)
7 - Fitzpatrick (Long career as a starting NFL QB in the 7th round... Martz did always have an eye for QBs)
7 - Hedgecock (Excellent FB, hated to see him go to the Giants)

I see a lot of NFL talent on this list. A far, far cry from the 2002 Robert Thomas/Eric Crouch debacle. The guy learned on the job, particularly as a talent evaluator. I wish we'd kept him around.

 

[Selassie I]

This article makes me puke on my keyboard.

I Love MARTZ

 

[DCH]

This article makes me puke on my keyboard.

Yeah, it's a pretty terrible article.

 

[Ram Quixote]

Quite simply, Martz shouldn't have been the personnel evaluator, but that was the Rams FO agenda throughout the Georgia/Shaw regime. They put too much on Martz plate to begin with, and it showed.

As a first time HC, Martz was out of his league when it came to evaluating talent (except, perhaps, QBs), and he had no clue what to do with a defense. That first season on defense was a nightmare.

If Martz had been in traditional setting (a true football GM, rather than Zygmunt), he would have been left to run the team, period. Forget that Martz had no clue in the Draft; he wouldn't have been in charge of it.

Martz' arrogance on offense was no different than Fisher's arrogance on defense.

 

[Alan]

Of this list,
2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State
Only Pickett was any good or not past his prime. How does that help the case he's trying to make?

 

[Rmfnlt]

Of this list,
2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State
Only Pickett was any good or not past his prime. How does that help the case he's trying to make?

Who's case?

 

[Alan]

Rmfnlt with a Q:
Who's case?

ramdude
"Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.

I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?"

 

[Stranger]

But I think his ego got the best of him as head coach, and the Rams are the worse for it

Exactly what evidence is there that this man has an ego problem? This is a media driven perspective, and has no basis in reality. I actually see a very humble guy, who saw another way to achieve results, and effectively transformed the entire league in the process. He's not in the media touting his accomplishments, or trying to grab the limelight in anyway. The guy lives a quite life outside football in his Laguna Niguel home.

 

[Ram Quixote]

ramdude
"Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.

I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?"

2 things wrong with this: First, with the so-called FO back-stabbing, there wasn't a lot of anyone taking responsibility for anything that went on during Martz' time. If I was Martz, I'd be paranoid, too.

Second, when Leonard Little and London Fletcher became FA, the word was that the Rams couldn't afford both of them. Then there was word that Lovie Smith preferred Jamie Duncan. So, what the hell was going on?

 

[Prime Time]

Exactly what evidence is there that this man has an ego problem?

What one person thinks is an ego problem, someone else might think is self-confidence. Any head coach has to have a healthy ego, Martz was no different. He thought his offense could overcome anything, a lousy defense, spotty special teams, bad calls, bad challenges, etc. Sometimes he was right, sometimes he was wrong. Ultimately only those who worked with him or knew him well could accurately speak on his so-called "ego problem."

 

[MrMotes]

Architect of the GSOT, winningest HC, coach in St. Louis Rams history, WR coach during Bruce's first two seasons.

As Dick Vermeil said: "We don't win the Super Bowl without Mike Martz. He was a catalyst offensively. I wouldn't have this ring on my finger if not for him."

Mike Martz is an all time Rams great

 

[ramsince62]

Two important examples I believe illustrate Martz's insight and football acumen. A week or so ago there was a radio interview posted with Martz that took place just before this draft. During the interview Martz hit on two valid and material points. First, he mentioned the #10 draft choice and hinted at the need for a RB. Then he later went on to respond when asked about the Ram O line that they should "draft a bunch of RT's"..........not a bad call wouldn't you say?

 

[Alan]

Ram Quixote pointing out some inconvenient truths:
2 things wrong with this: First, with the so-called FO back-stabbing, there wasn't a lot of anyone taking responsibility for anything that went on during Martz' time. If I was Martz, I'd be paranoid, too.

Second, when Leonard Little and London Fletcher became FA, the word was that the Rams couldn't afford both of them. Then there was word that Lovie Smith preferred Jamie Duncan. So, what the hell was going on?

That and other things that ramdude failed to take into consideration.

I'm surprised that London wasn't included in that list. He's a special case though. Yeah, Lovie preferred Duncan but I think another even greater factor was London's age. The fact that he went on to play better than any MLB the have had until we drafted JL in Washington is hindsight. The guy was great AND inhuman.

Despite some data that he uses in his argument, I'm not buying his overall supposition about Martz. He wasn't what I'd call a normal HC that's for sure. I'll never forget that game that we had to go for 2 points after every touchdown because we had no backup kicker. Priceless. I remember hoping we'd start going for 2 every game.

 

[Ram65]

Overall I vote average HC. I didn't like his drafts. I hated that he didn't go for TD against Carolina in playoffs. I remember him not giving not Ryan Tucker help playing tackle when he was hurt and getting beaten almost every play. That really bothered me. Loved the OC Mike Martz!

 

[DaveFan'51]

I Like Mike! And I'd take him back in a heart beat, IF Fisher weren't here!
But I can think of 3 X Ram Coaches With better win %, and one of them is in the Hall of Fame! And I probably have about 4 or 5 I'd want before Martz!

 

[HometownBoy]

He's a great OC, maybe one of the bests, but as a head coach he's mediocre and has no business evaluating talent. Just because you're shit at one thing in a craft doesn't mean you're completely terrible at everything to do with it. You can appreciate Martz as a great OC that helped us win a Super Bowl and also acknowledge that he's probably not suited for being a head coach.

 

[ZigZagRam]

I think Martz was an above average coach. Terrible personnel man, but he made the most out of the rosters he helped maim.

 

[Rmfnlt]

ramdude
"Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.

I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?"

Oh, I thought he was trying to make the case that his piskcs weren't very good. That's still a valid argument to me.

 

[Rmfnlt]

He's a great OC, maybe one of the bests, but as a head coach he's mediocre and has no business evaluating talent. Just because you're crap at one thing in a craft doesn't mean you're completely terrible at everything to do with it. You can appreciate Martz as a great OC that helped us win a Super Bowl and also acknowledge that he's probably not suited for being a head coach.

I think this is a fair assessment.

There seems to be quite a few fans who believe he was not a good evaluator of talent.

What's not said is the impact of those bad decisions. The team started to deteriorate at the endof his tenure and only got worse, thanks to Linehan and Spagnuolo/Devaney. That's a lot of years of bad drafting. A hole so big, we're still digging out.