Kromer

[So Ram]

Last offseason, I expected the Rams to be gearing up to move forward to a SB win, similar to the improvement between 2017 to 18. The offseason doubt was our OL, which did end up taking us down. The frustration with facing another entire offseason of the same basic concern and debate with a few new twists is very understandable to me.

It’s a new season & the situation is totally different. If your talking about building a team the right way.

 

[So Ram]

And many of those detractors are just finding an excuse to be negative. Havenstein improved in 2017 and 18 and do you maybe think he had input on acquiring Whit and Sully or if that was all Snead and McVay. Hint we know those two work with their position coaches on getting players they'll have the most success with. It's far too easy to be negative when things take a down turn and it happens daily around here.

In 2017 & 2018 The Rams offensive line was in worse shape than it is now.
Mcvay by not allowing competition was The Rams biggest fault in 2019.

 

[So Ram]

For all you Kromer bashers
I’m armed and ready!

View attachment 35937

I’ll meet you on PCH so we can all storm to the beaches with our pitchforks.

 

[PhillyRam]

It's not good to look at things in a vacuum. It's all about whose team is better than whose. The Rams Oline was 31st. In comparison to the rest of the league. They were practically the worst Oline of all. So, realistically how much can they improve in one offseason? Cracking the top 20 isn't likely.

O Lines don't make ten point jumps in the rankings without adding significant talent. How much improved do they have to be to be a playoff caliber unit? Top 12? I'd say at the least top 16. That's a 15 place jump in the rankings. Not likely. And quit praising the line play late in the season. It looked better but Goff was rolling out and McVay was using misdirection to cover the weakness. It was smoke and mirtors.

I think a young group, who gets to play a 2nd full season together and without a lot of injuries, certainly can. Just a natural progression.

 

[PARAM]

True. He had a 3rd round guard Jordan Miller start. He also inherited veterans Cordy Glenn & Eric Wood, while vet FA pickup Richie Incognito joined the team the same year he got there. Eventually, the 2nd year OT got replaced by vet pickup Jordan Mills after 10 games.

I'd be more impressed with the rushing stats if the Bills weren't running a Greg Roman offense with QB Tyrod Taylor picking up about 1,100 of those rushing yards at almost a 6 ypc carry clip though.

Okay. Point taken. So the guy has had a very fortuitous blessed career. He's been around great offensive lineman everywhere he's gone. And had great timing too.

He joined the Saints in 2008 (coming off a 7-9 season) who then went 8-8 with Brees, Evans, 1st rounder Jamaal Brown, Carl Nicks, etc. but was the RB coach that year. Then Marrone left to be head coach at Syracuse and he became the OL coach. Fortuitous timing. That year, his first as Saints OL coach, they won the SB. His players over those 4 years (2009-2012) got him an offer to be Bears OC/OL coach.

He inherited Jermon Bushrod (who the Bears got from the Saints that year) and Robert Garza plus the Bears drafted Kyle Long (1st) and Jordan Mills (5th) who both started 16 games. Matt Forte has his best season that year. The Bears offense went from #28 in yards to #8 and from #16 in points to #2. Another fortuitous break for Kromer's resume.

On to Buffalo in 2015 (when the Bears fired Trestman and staff) where he inherited LeSean McCoy, Eric Wood and Cordy Glenn. Lucky for Kromer they signed Richie Incognito, who hadn't played a down of football since November 2013 and went to the pro bowl both years Kromer was with the Bills (fortuitous for Kromer's resume). The Bills also drafted Jon Miller in the 3rd round to help Kromer. With Tyrod Taylor, it's nice to have a QB run for 500+ yards, particularly when the star RB goes down for 1/4 of the season and doesn't quite gain 900 yards.

With the Rams, we're familiar with the story. Kromer inherited Rodger Saffold and Rob Havenstein, the Rams acquired Whitworth and Sullivan and Kromer's fortuitous, blessed career continued. He was also aided by Jamon Brown starting 16 games after starting 9 and 5 the previous 2 years. Then Austin Blythe replacing him in 2018. It started to break down in 2019 and may have exposed Kromer as just another guy-OL coach. Maybe his luck has finally run out? Kromer has been fortuitous to be around some great players. Imagine how good those teams would be if he could actually coach.

 

[Memphis Ram]

It's not good to look at things in a vacuum. It's all about whose team is better than whose. The Rams Oline was 31st. In comparison to the rest of the league. They were practically the worst Oline of all. So, realistically how much can they improve in one offseason? Cracking the top 20 isn't likely.

O Lines don't make ten point jumps in the rankings without adding significant talent. How much improved do they have to be to be a playoff caliber unit? Top 12? I'd say at the least top 16. That's a 15 place jump in the rankings. Not likely. And quit praising the line play late in the season. It looked better but Goff was rolling out and McVay was using misdirection to cover the weakness. It was smoke and mirtors.

I really don't get this 31st ranking that keeps showing up on this forum. A team with the so-called 31st ranked Oline was a mere missed FG away from going 10-6 and a playoff birth? How is that possible? Was the rest of the team REALLY that good to carry such an important unit?

And now even after the league has added a playoff opportunity, you believe that the team has to reach this arbitrary top 16 ranking to be a playoff caliber unit?

And if McVay was using misdirection or so called smoke and mirrors to cover weaknesses, isn't that merely good coaching? And hasn't smoke and mirrors kinda been the mindset on offense since his arrival?

 

[LARAMSinFeb.]

It's not good to look at things in a vacuum. It's all about whose team is better than whose. The Rams Oline was 31st. In comparison to the rest of the league. They were practically the worst Oline of all. So, realistically how much can they improve in one offseason? Cracking the top 20 isn't likely.

O Lines don't make ten point jumps in the rankings without adding significant talent. How much improved do they have to be to be a playoff caliber unit? Top 12? I'd say at the least top 16. That's a 15 place jump in the rankings. Not likely. And quit praising the line play late in the season. It looked better but Goff was rolling out and McVay was using misdirection to cover the weakness. It was smoke and mirtors.

It's rough. Our line was 26th in our RBs getting stuffed (which was 21% of the time). That's a big domino that falls and takes down your team. Sure was nice in years prior to be #1 in the league in 1st down chunks.

 

[LARAMSinFeb.]

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying draft picks wouldn't help the Rams, I was saying drafting OL wouldn't have helped your off season angst, or shouldn't have helped any more than the draft picks they made in 2018 and 2019. Had we have taken an OT in this draft it would have been the 8th or 9th OT taken, not one of the top 3. The OC's were nothing to "bank on" either. I read evaluations of Cushenberry that said he was ill suited for a zone run scheme and the second kid (from Temple), who actually went before him was on the smallish side and may have struggled against the bigger DTs.. Of course I don't know if that's true or not but apparently our war room staff weren't impressed enough to take them.

My point is, if you would have been excited about our OL's potential had they drafted an OT, C or G in the second round how is that any different from hoping they got it right in 2018 and 2019? Noteboom, Allen, Evans and Edwards gained experience and that might make them better players going forward. Many have said, it's possible our staff didn't believe any of them on the board (within reach) would have been better than what we have and it seems logical. Of course we could have put a package together to move into the first round to get one but what would that have cost us? How many guys from our draft board would we have had to sacrifice to get a high OL prospect?

In my mind even had we done that, the angst still should have been present because nobody knows how those guys are going to work out in the NFL. At least for me it would have been. I'm in the camp, we've spent draft capital on 5 guys and they didn't do bad last year, all (save Corbett) starting for the first time in their career. We had the #7 offense, #11 scoring offense in the league with 4 different first time starters and a guy Fast Freddie Kitchens benched, plus two vet OT's who were inconsistent for part of the year and 1 of those missed 7 games plus Austin Blythe. Not bad at all IMHO. In other words, I don't think they're falling further behind. They're actually taking advantage of the guys with NFL experience. Drafting more youngsters for those positions would have been falling further behind......and in more areas than just the OL.

“Is this noob going to bolster our OL development in the coming years relative to the rest of the league, “ and “dang they didn’t even address the problem again” are 2 different “angsts.”

Last offseason people calmed my “angst” telling me Boom and Allen would work out fine, and there wouldn’t be a dropoff.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Okay. Point taken. So the guy has had a very fortuitous blessed career. He's been around great offensive lineman everywhere he's gone. And had great timing too.

He joined the Saints in 2008 (coming off a 7-9 season) who then went 8-8 with Brees, Evans, 1st rounder Jamaal Brown, Carl Nicks, etc. but was the RB coach that year. Then Marrone left to be head coach at Syracuse and he became the OL coach. Fortuitous timing. That year, his first as Saints OL coach, they won the SB. His players over those 4 years (2009-2012) got him an offer to be Bears OC/OL coach.

He inherited Jermon Bushrod (who the Bears got from the Saints that year) and Robert Garza plus the Bears drafted Kyle Long (1st) and Jordan Mills (5th) who both started 16 games. Matt Forte has his best season that year. The Bears offense went from #28 in yards to #8 and from #16 in points to #2. Another fortuitous break for Kromer's resume.

On to Buffalo in 2015 (when the Bears fired Trestman and staff) where he inherited LeSean McCoy, Eric Wood and Cordy Glenn. Lucky for Kromer they signed Richie Incognito, who hadn't played a down of football since November 2013 and went to the pro bowl both years Kromer was with the Bills (fortuitous for Kromer's resume). The Bills also drafted Jon Miller in the 3rd round to help Kromer. With Tyrod Taylor, it's nice to have a QB run for 500+ yards, particularly when the star RB goes down for 1/4 of the season and doesn't quite gain 900 yards.

With the Rams, we're familiar with the story. Kromer inherited Rodger Saffold and Rob Havenstein, the Rams acquired Whitworth and Sullivan and Kromer's fortuitous, blessed career continued. He was also aided by Jamon Brown starting 16 games after starting 9 and 5 the previous 2 years. Then Austin Blythe replacing him in 2018. It started to break down in 2019 and may have exposed Kromer as just another guy-OL coach. Maybe his luck has finally run out? Kromer has been fortuitous to be around some great players. Imagine how good those teams would be if he could actually coach.

Great breakdown. However, no one said he couldn't coach. But, yes, he has had a very fortuitous blessed career as you say. BTW, the best season of Forte's career was helped by his making it through a 16 game season (he was averaging 4.9 ypc two seasons prior but only lasted 12 games) in a new Marc Trestman offense where QB Jake McCown came in and played light outs 1/3 of the season (13 TDs, 1 INT).

And Incognito was a stud OLineman prior to getting to Buffalo. He just had some issues to work through. Players have missed significant time before and come back as strong. Nothing new there. And yes, having a QB like Tyrod Taylor in Greg Roman's offense makes it far easier to run the football. With or without the star RB in the backfield all the time. We saw it with Kaepernick. We are seeing it now with Jackson. Defenses have to account for both QB & RB making it easier for both to have success running the football. The lack of that duel threat is one of the issues the RB J.K. Dobbins (who many here wanted over Cam Akers) claimed as an issue with his statistical line a couple years back.

Enter his stint in LA with offensive genius Sean McVay and we know the rest.

 

[OldSchool]

Appologies, I've been quoted often in this thread and lost track of all of them. What I was referring to was a response to a previous quote where I addressed that.

 

[1maGoh]

Okay. Point taken. So the guy has had a very fortuitous blessed career. He's been around great offensive lineman everywhere he's gone. And had great timing too.

He joined the Saints in 2008 (coming off a 7-9 season) who then went 8-8 with Brees, Evans, 1st rounder Jamaal Brown, Carl Nicks, etc. but was the RB coach that year. Then Marrone left to be head coach at Syracuse and he became the OL coach. Fortuitous timing. That year, his first as Saints OL coach, they won the SB. His players over those 4 years (2009-2012) got him an offer to be Bears OC/OL coach.

He inherited Jermon Bushrod (who the Bears got from the Saints that year) and Robert Garza plus the Bears drafted Kyle Long (1st) and Jordan Mills (5th) who both started 16 games. Matt Forte has his best season that year. The Bears offense went from #28 in yards to #8 and from #16 in points to #2. Another fortuitous break for Kromer's resume.

On to Buffalo in 2015 (when the Bears fired Trestman and staff) where he inherited LeSean McCoy, Eric Wood and Cordy Glenn. Lucky for Kromer they signed Richie Incognito, who hadn't played a down of football since November 2013 and went to the pro bowl both years Kromer was with the Bills (fortuitous for Kromer's resume). The Bills also drafted Jon Miller in the 3rd round to help Kromer. With Tyrod Taylor, it's nice to have a QB run for 500+ yards, particularly when the star RB goes down for 1/4 of the season and doesn't quite gain 900 yards.

With the Rams, we're familiar with the story. Kromer inherited Rodger Saffold and Rob Havenstein, the Rams acquired Whitworth and Sullivan and Kromer's fortuitous, blessed career continued. He was also aided by Jamon Brown starting 16 games after starting 9 and 5 the previous 2 years. Then Austin Blythe replacing him in 2018. It started to break down in 2019 and may have exposed Kromer as just another guy-OL coach. Maybe his luck has finally run out? Kromer has been fortuitous to be around some great players. Imagine how good those teams would be if he could actually coach.

I think when somebody is "lucky" that many times in a row, it not likely to be luck. Also, you mentioned a couple of drafted guys. Are you suggesting that those drafted guys didn't need coaching and turned into above average starters with bad coaching?

We've seen what happens when there's bad o line coaching. Nobody develops and everyone is shit. All the pre-McVay era back to Vermeil (the last time we had a good o line).

 

[PARAM]

Great breakdown. However, no one said he couldn't coach. But, yes, he has had a very fortuitous blessed career as you say. BTW, the best season of Forte's career was helped by his making it through a 16 game season (he was averaging 4.9 ypc two seasons prior but only lasted 12 games) in a new Marc Trestman offense where QB Jake McCown came in and played light outs 1/3 of the season (13 TDs, 1 INT).

And Incognito was a stud OLineman prior to getting to Buffalo. He just had some issues to work through. Players have missed significant time before and come back as strong. Nothing new there. And yes, having a QB like Tyrod Taylor in Greg Roman's offense makes it far easier to run the football. With or without the star RB in the backfield all the time. We saw it with Kaepernick. We are seeing it now with Jackson. Defenses have to account for both QB & RB making it easier for both to have success running the football. The lack of that duel threat is one of the issues the RB (many here wanted over Cam Akers) J.K. Dobbins claimed a couple years back.

Enter his stint in LA with offensive genius Sean McVay and we know the rest.

I realize nobody said he couldn't coach. What was implied was he needed optimum conditions to be successful. Great vet lineman, good rookies. When I said Forte had his best year under Kromer, I meant all around. It's true he averaged 4.6 the previous two seasons (451 for 2091) but as a weapon under Kromer's OC duties, those two years were by far his best. 176 receptions for 1402 yards plus 2377 on the ground (1889 yds from scrimmage per).

It would seem everywhere Kromer goes, they have excellent lineman already there, they immediately acquire good free agent lineman and they draft lineman who are successful under his tutelage. When he got to Chicago, they acquired Bushrod (from New Orleans, Kromer's former stop) and drafted Long and Mills. In Buffalo they acquired Incognito, who despite being a good lineman, hadn't played in 2014 after being suspened for the half the season in 2013. I don't remember how many teams were lined up to sign him but Buffalo ended up with him. They also drafted Miller and acquired Jordan Mills from Chicago (Kromer's former stop). In Los Angeles, they acquired Whitworth and Sullivan.

It appears more fortuitous than Kromer are the teams that make these important OL acquisitions soon after hiring him. I'm sure there's no connection.

 

[bubbaramfan]

And maybe Kromer said to McVay "This OL is so bad, there's no way one or two draft picks will make a difference. Lets draft the RB who had the worst OL and still got yds."

 

[PARAM]

And maybe Kromer said to McVay "This OL is so bad, there's no way one or two draft picks will make a difference. Lets draft the RB who had the worst OL and still got yds."

That's one possibility. I lean more towards the possibility Snead, McVay and Kromer arrived at a decision by getting Whitworth and Blythe back, along with 5 young lineman who saw considerable playing time, it would be enough to develop a solid OL. Not to mention a couple others waiting in the wings (Shelton, Brewer). And still they took a G on the last day of the draft. One who can play T or G, a theme they seem to employ with many of their lineman. Of course with those failures of Noteboom and Allen, according to PFF / the final say in NFL value, who knows what's going to happen.

 

[André]

The line has been ineffective, yes. But the constant quoting of 'late-round picks' is just inaccurate hyperbole.

The line has three second rounders (Whit, Hav and Corbett), two third rounders (Note and Evans) and a fourth-rounder (Allen). Those are all day two picks.

Feel free to insult the choices if you don't like them, and the talent definitely didn't show last year, but saying they are all late round scrubs is just trying to re-frame the narrative in a way that, frankly, takes away from your argument because it appears dishonest.

We've spent draft capital. I wish we had spent more this year (one of our seconds). The line was hurt and disappointing. Kromer needs to show he can develop young talent. All good arguments. Saying that our line is all late-round nobodies isn't correct.

Just my two cents.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I realize nobody said he couldn't coach. What was implied was he needed optimum conditions to be successful. Great vet lineman, good rookies. When I said Forte had his best year under Kromer, I meant all around. It's true he averaged 4.6 the previous two seasons (451 for 2091) but as a weapon under Kromer's OC duties, those two years were by far his best. 176 receptions for 1402 yards plus 2377 on the ground (1889 yds from scrimmage per).

It would seem everywhere Kromer goes, they have excellent lineman already there, they immediately acquire good free agent lineman and they draft lineman who are successful under his tutelage. When he got to Chicago, they acquired Bushrod (from New Orleans, Kromer's former stop) and drafted Long and Mills. In Buffalo they acquired Incognito, who despite being a good lineman, hadn't played in 2014 after being suspened for the half the season in 2013. I don't remember how many teams were lined up to sign him but Buffalo ended up with him. They also drafted Miller and acquired Jordan Mills from Chicago (Kromer's former stop). In Los Angeles, they acquired Whitworth and Sullivan.

It appears more fortuitous than Kromer are the teams that make these important OL acquisitions soon after hiring him. I'm sure there's no connection.

But, no one said or even implied that he's had excellent lineman already at each of his stops. What was questioned was whether or not veterans and 1st round talents were necessary for success.

OLine coaches almost always request that their new teams acquire players from former stops. That's nothing new.

Finally, Kromer didn't join that Bears team alone. Despite his OC/OLine coach title, he coached an OLine in a new offense in new HC and so-called offensive guru Marc Trestman's system. You think it more Kromer and not Trestman as the major influencer of Forte's uptick in receiving? A so-called passing guru who got the job primarily to make something out of Jay Cutler? He didn't join the Bills offense alone. He came with and coached under a new staff in Greg Roman's system. A system with a strong rushing attack just about everywhere he's been when allowed to utilize the QB in said rushing attack. And finally, he didn't join the Rams alone. He came and has coached under a new coach in Sean McVay and his system.

Again, doesn't mean he can't coach. But, yes, he has had, as you say, "a very fortuitous blessed career."

 

[PARAM]

Well, then I guess not only does he "need to inherit solid VETERANS or 1st round talents to be successful", he needs to jump on the coat tails of awesome offensive minds. Like I said. A fortuitous fellow with a blessed resume.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I really don't get this 31st ranking that keeps showing up on this forum. A team with the so-called 31st ranked Oline was a mere missed FG away from going 10-6 and a playoff birth? How is that possible? Was the rest of the team REALLY that good to carry such an important unit?

And now even after the league has added a playoff opportunity, you believe that the team has to reach this arbitrary top 16 ranking to be a playoff caliber unit?

And if McVay was using misdirection or so called smoke and mirrors to cover weaknesses, isn't that merely good coaching? And hasn't smoke and mirrors kinda been the mindset on offense since his arrival?

It is good coaching. But it tells us that the line was still a weakness at the end of year. I bring it up because many here like to site the big improvement towards the end of the season.


The 16th ranking is arbitrary, but to have a good chance at making the Super Bowl, Is say it would have to be even higher than that. In the end that’s the goal right? A top ten ranking would put them in the top third of the league. That should be the target.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I think a young group, who gets to play a 2nd full season together and without a lot of injuries, certainly can. Just a natural progression.

I hope you are right

 

[Memphis Ram]

It is good coaching. But it tells us that the line was still a weakness at the end of year. I bring it up because many here like to site the big improvement towards the end of the season.

If this 31st ranking really means anything then it's not just good coaching.
It's OUTSTANDING coaching like we've probably never seen prior.

Both Snead and McVay seem to join the many here who saw improvement towards the end of the season. Was this 31st ranking I keep seeing for the entire season? If so, is there a ranking for the late season period of improvement that Snead, McVay, and the many others, such as myself, saw?