Kromer

[PARAM]

My point was that Edwards and Evans were instant upgrades, despite having less experience, so why assume Allen at Center, Blythe at guard, and Noteboom at guard is the default line when two of them return?

this idea that the Rams barely missing the playoffs = good Oline play is inaccurate.

No one is saying "because the Rams barely missed the playoffs" they had good O line play. The point being made is, they weren't nearly as bad as the overplayed doom and gloom reviewers suggest.

And as I said before, there was no "instant upgrade", neither when Noteboom was injured or when Allen/Havenstein went down. They played two teams with 1 win between them after Noteboom got hurt and just like the overplayed doom and gloom review of the O line is inaccurate, the instant improvement is inaccurate. Did they look better? Did they play better? Yeah but more so because of the weak opponent than anything. When they met up with a real defense in Pittsburgh there was no visible improvement.

When Allen and Havenstein went down, in that abysmal Pittsburgh game, the next two games were also abysmal offensively. Against he Bears, they had 5 three and outs in 11 possessions (not counting the 1 play, 3 yard run from our 8 as time expired in the first half and the victory formation at the end of the game). They ran the ball 32 times so we gotta give them a persistence award but they averaged 3.2 ypc. They had 283 yards and 17 points. What improvement, eh? You asked me what I saw of the O line in 2019. Can you tell me what you saw that showed they improved instantly?

The next game was against Baltimore and that was even worse. 22 yards rushing. 2.4 ypc. 199 yards passing, much of it after the game was out of reach, @ 5.4 ypa and 7.7 yards per catch with 2 sacks. I don't know how instant improvement can be realized with those numbers, let alone the eyeball test. I think that perception (instant improvement) is a fantasy. There was improvement the longer the subs played together and that was over 7 games with a surrounding cast who were playing their 10th to 16th game. Hell, Edwards had 10 games to improve. The opening OL played 5 games and 1 series together with a surrounding cast playing the same.

 

[So Ram]

No one is saying "because the Rams barely missed the playoffs" they had good O line play. The point being made is, they weren't nearly as bad as the overplayed doom and gloom reviewers suggest.

And as I said before, there was no "instant upgrade", neither when Noteboom was injured or when Allen/Havenstein went down. They played two teams with 1 win between them after Noteboom got hurt and just like the overplayed doom and gloom review of the O line is inaccurate, the instant improvement is inaccurate. Did they look better? Did they play better? Yeah but more so because of the weak opponent than anything. When they met up with a real defense in Pittsburgh there was no visible improvement.

When Allen and Havenstein went down, in that abysmal Pittsburgh game, the next two games were also abysmal offensively. Against he Bears, they had 5 three and outs in 11 possessions (not counting the 1 play, 3 yard run from our 8 as time expired in the first half and the victory formation at the end of the game). They ran the ball 32 times so we gotta give them a persistence award but they averaged 3.2 ypc. They had 283 yards and 17 points. What improvement, eh? You asked me what I saw of the O line in 2019. Can you tell me what you saw that showed they improved instantly?

The next game was against Baltimore and that was even worse. 22 yards rushing. 2.4 ypc. 199 yards passing, much of it after the game was out of reach, @ 5.4 ypa and 7.7 yards per catch with 2 sacks. I don't know how instant improvement can be realized with those numbers, let alone the eyeball test. I think that perception (instant improvement) is a fantasy. There was improvement the longer the subs played together and that was over 7 games with a surrounding cast who were playing their 10th to 16th game. Hell, Edwards had 10 games to improve. The opening OL played 5 games and 1 series together with a surrounding cast playing the same.

Wtf - point are you trying to make ?? Of course me of all people,but really???

First of you just made me Like the job Kromer & McSnead did. I watched the Pittsburgh game which basically wiped The Rams out of the playoffs.

The next game after the Steelers was Da Bears.

BTW- those offensive game stats of Steeler game are crazy ?? Just WOW ??
Especially playing probably the best defense at some point in 2019.

Just the instant improvement?? Once again not knowing right now what I’m even looking at The Rams beat Da Bears on the road 17-7. So The Rams defense was playing as good as any team in the NFL.
Your talking 2 road games of course after a bye week & a few Big Time Mid-Season Trades. Oh Thanks Wade!!

Just saying growth is on its way.Your right there might not be any instant gratification here from this Offensive Line, but the depth is. That is why there was no OFFENSE LINEMAN drafted.
It’s not brain science.Just connect the dots. Now it makes things crazier of the Corbett trade. Allen was starting Center & Havienstien at Right tackle still.

 

[So Ram]

Okay my stats are wrong!! It was not as crazy & I actually think my mind was that messed up by not knowing
some total craziness.

I looked up snap counts.,but it doesn’t give the position played.Like Austin Corbett was listed as a Center which I don’t understand??

SheLton Coleman played one Pittsburgh & Tyler Higbee only had 25 snaps.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

No one is saying "because the Rams barely missed the playoffs" they had good O line play. The point being made is, they weren't nearly as bad as the overplayed doom and gloom reviewers suggest.

And as I said before, there was no "instant upgrade", neither when Noteboom was injured or when Allen/Havenstein went down. They played two teams with 1 win between them after Noteboom got hurt and just like the overplayed doom and gloom review of the O line is inaccurate, the instant improvement is inaccurate. Did they look better? Did they play better? Yeah but more so because of the weak opponent than anything. When they met up with a real defense in Pittsburgh there was no visible improvement.

When Allen and Havenstein went down, in that abysmal Pittsburgh game, the next two games were also abysmal offensively. Against he Bears, they had 5 three and outs in 11 possessions (not counting the 1 play, 3 yard run from our 8 as time expired in the first half and the victory formation at the end of the game). They ran the ball 32 times so we gotta give them a persistence award but they averaged 3.2 ypc. They had 283 yards and 17 points. What improvement, eh? You asked me what I saw of the O line in 2019. Can you tell me what you saw that showed they improved instantly?

The next game was against Baltimore and that was even worse. 22 yards rushing. 2.4 ypc. 199 yards passing, much of it after the game was out of reach, @ 5.4 ypa and 7.7 yards per catch with 2 sacks. I don't know how instant improvement can be realized with those numbers, let alone the eyeball test. I think that perception (instant improvement) is a fantasy. There was improvement the longer the subs played together and that was over 7 games with a surrounding cast who were playing their 10th to 16th game. Hell, Edwards had 10 games to improve. The opening OL played 5 games and 1 series together with a surrounding cast playing the same.

On individual performance it was an instant upgrade. As a unit, not so much. But like you say they need time to gel. The Rams were robbed in Pittsburgh btw. That should have been a win. Demby was in that initial mix at RG For those first two games when Noteboom went down and he was really bad. He created a huge weakness. Blythe was better at Center than Allen. Edwards was better/stronger at LG than Blythe and Evans was better than the injured play of Havenstein.

The Bears and Ravens were ugly games for the entire team though.

But the narrative that the Rams narrowly missed the playoffs because the Oline wasn't that bad is very suggestive. It's mostly the Oline play that held them back. The offense wasn't good against very good defenses. The Rams weren't a playoff caliber team. If they could run the ball better then maybe they get in, but it's not likely they get far.

You point out another thing that bothers me. While the reserves were an upgrade, just how much of an upgrade can we expect? None of them flashed great potential. After all the misdirection was a factor in later success. I go back to my post on perspective and comparing to other teams. Even though the reserves played better, was it really enough to make you think that they will emerge as a very good or even league average offensive line?

I guess if Havenstein can return to previous form, and Whitworth can continue to defy aging, at least they'd have good bookends. Edwards has limitations Blythe has limitations and we haven't seen much of Corbett or others to know. The fact that Corbett couldn't crack the Browns starting line up and they were willing to give up on a second round pick so quickly and for a lesser return is a bit concerning. Maybe the try Evans at LG. Either way it's the line they are stuck with now. All the debate in the coming Lord isn't changing that. Hopefully it they have similar lack of production this year, they take action in free agency next year and try to address it more a.ggressively

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Wow. I just read this and I now understand the disconnect. You have completely misread my point of view from the start as not one thing here is accurate.

I never said that the Oline was good. I said that they improved at the end of the year. AND I questioned the so-called 31st ranking you have promoted and held on to until this last post. - And I've said the same thing. They've improved but also had help with scheme. So was the scheme change a sign that the Oline could execute it better or a desperate attempt to overcome the Oline play? I tend to think it's the latter, but none of us know that for sure. So how much did the line improve? Enough to think they will be considered good? I wouldn't go that far. I only stopped holding onto that ranking because it wasnt something you would except, so I tried to present from a different angle.

I don't believe that the coaches are geniuses for their choices. But, I do believe it takes an outstanding coaching effort to have the success they had with an OLine as bad (31st rank) as you continually claim. - Well you did say that was some OUTSTANDING coaching. I'm guessing that just have been for effect. Was it a good choice? Yes, was it some sort of genius, never before concocted strategy? No. It fans wonder why they aren't trying it then it's not a big deal, or outstanding. So what is it then? Maybe the rest of the offense was good and held back by the Oline? If the Rams could consistently run the ball in most games, especially against good defenses then they likely make the playoffs. They beat the teams they should but at no point last year did they look dominant.

And I've not been angry one bit with this exchange. But, I have been confused as to your take as to what it takes for this team to finish one FG away from playoff contention with just about the worst (31st ranked) OLine in the entire league, which I believe to be impossible. <<<-------- My point. - so just how bad for good to you think they were? Which teams offensive lines were obviously so much worse than the Rams? If the Rams offensive line play was better, especially with the run game, then the rest of the team was good enough to make the playoffs. The offensive line was the weakest link on the team.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Changing my tune? What on earth are you talking about here? My opinion or argument hasn't changed at all. Your argument is hard to follow.

I saw what the coaches rolled in with to being this season and the season prior. It was a noticeable downgrade. Of course, I also saw how healthy the OLine starters were the prior two seasons compared to this one which played a role in it's success/failure, but I digress.

And with changes in frequency throughout his tenure, rollouts & misdirection have been apart of the offense since McVay's arrival. And I'd be willing to bet that he didn't visit this forum for the idea. The majority of his offense is based upon causing confusion for opposing defenses. - My point on the forum members bringing it up never meant that McVay consulted RoD. It was to illustrate that even laymen like us are familiar with the strategy. Just like at one point in 2018 we wondered why he wasn't using two TE sets to combat what some defenses did to his scheme. But your trying to make it look like I claimed he got the idea from here. Your absurd misdirection and attempts to muddle my points are kind of silly.

The team not being devoid of talent which should be close to making the playoffs? With the 31st ranked offensive line? So when they say that wins and losses start in the trenches, they just means the defensive trenches? Or is it that offensive line play now a vastly overrated measure in the success of teams? Well should we now expect teams not devoid of talent, who are one slot away from having the worst Oline in the NFL to be close to playoff contention regularly? Even with a defense that is middle of the pack in points allowed and without a top the special teams unit? Doesn't take outstanding coaching at all. You'd be better off going with just plan luck. - The rest of the team was good. The line play held them back. This is where you are suggesting the Oline play was good. You are giving them credit for the Rams nearly making the playoffs. So, the Rams beat the average or below teams but struggled against good teams, or playoff teams. Despite good play by Woods, Higbee, Kupp, and Goff, they couldn't replicate 2018 success. So, maybe since the skill position players played well on offense, maybe, just maybe, it was the offensive line that was the reason they couldn't make the playoffs.

Now that's flamboyance & theatrics. - No that's just being absurd again in an attempt to make it look like I said those things, and blow my argument apart. But claiming that a coach using a well known, long used technique to get his QB more time to throw and confuse the defense to be OUTSTANDING COACHING, yes that is flamboyant and theatrics. If you continue to interject with these types of ridiculous claims, maybe your initial point isn't all that strong. It seems that you just can't accept that I may be right, and that you cannot disprove me, so you are turning to making a mockery of the whole discussion.

BTW, you still haven't answered what the offensive lines ranking was in the latter part of the season when Snead, McVay, and many others saw improvement.

I looked it up. I couldn't find game by game rankings. But it would be difficult to measure that difference because McVay changed tactics, and he likely did it to overcome deficiencies in his offensive line. If McVay hadn't changed tactics the Rams would have been even further from making the playoffs. I've answered enough of your questions on the topic and told you that you aren't changing my mind. So, I don't know what more you want from me.

 

[PARAM]

Either way it's the line they are stuck with now.

I think that may be inaccurate.
It's the line with which they chose to go into 2020.
I think the line they go into 2021 with may be very different than the line that starts 2020 with very little change in personnel .
But what do I know? I saw no reason why they should have spent high draft capital on offensive lineman in the 2020 draft, while everybody and their brother were screaming for O lineman early and often.

 

[PARAM]

Starting lines by game:

Game: Starters (Subs)

Carolina: Whitworth, Noteboom, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (none)
New Orleans: Whitworth, Noteboom, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (Demby, RG)
Cleveland: Whitworth, Noteboom, Allen, Demby, Havenstein (none)
Tampa: Whitworth, Noteboom, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (none)
Seattle: Whitworth, Noteboom, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (none)
San Fran: Whitworth, Noteboom, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (Demby, LG)
Atlanta: Whitworth, Edwards, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (Shelton C, Evans RT)
Cincinnati: Whitworth, Edwards, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (none)
Pittsburgh: Whitworth, Edwards, Allen, Blythe, Havenstein (Shelton C, Corbett LG, Edwards RT)
Chicago: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (none)
Baltimore: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (none)
Arizona: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (Shelton C, Brewer LT)
Seattle: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (none)
Dallas: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (none)
San Fran: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (Brewer RT)
Arizona: Whitworth, Corbett, Blythe, Edwards, Evans (none)

On the original 5 starters they played a total of 3 games where they took every snap on offense.
On the end of season 5 starters they played a total of 5 games where they took every snap on offense.

Here's the final snap counts:

Whitworth 1098
Blythe 997
Edwards 690
Havenstein 617
Allen 563
Corbett 541
Evans 473
Noteboom 376
Demby 146
Shelton 23
Brewer 17

 

[OldSchool]

A very early look at next years draft has a nice list of LT“s that could be drafted. We’ll see how the year goes but iirc Whits deal was for essentially 2 years with a big year 3 escalato.

 

[Juice]

Whitworth is a man. Look at those snap counts at his age.

 

[Merlin]

A very early look at next years draft has a nice list of LT“s that could be drafted. We’ll see how the year goes but iirc Whits deal was for essentially 2 years with a big year 3 escalato.

I think the Rams are planning on Evans vs Noteboom for the LT position. Some rationale on this...

First, Edwards has the physicality we need at OG in the run game. He's basically locked into OG for us for that reason and that leaves the aforementioned as the likely in-house options.

Second, Evans' feet are his best asset. Same with Noteboom. Both need to get stronger, and look very much like what I would call dev LTs.

And lastly, the Rams direction in this past draft demonstrates they probably feel the answer is on the roster. Some of us might think they're nuts (and I do), however there was opportunity for them to address the dev option but they passed. And next draft doesn't have a first round pick so chances are the best they can hope for wrt the left side types with good feet are the dev types which tend to need time which is not their friend if Whit has the sudden kind of dropoff guys at his age can have.

So basically if they don't like the dev speed of those two then they probably plan to dip back in and get another dev option.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I think that may be inaccurate.
It's the line with which they chose to go into 2020.
I think the line they go into 2021 with may be very different than the line that starts 2020 with very little change in personnel .
But what do I know? I saw no reason why they should have spent high draft capital on offensive lineman in the 2020 draft, while everybody and their brother were screaming for O lineman early and often.

I disagree. I think it’s the line that they chose for 2019. But because of not having cap room it is the line that they are stuck with in 2020.

 

[PARAM]

I disagree. I think it’s the line that they chose for 2019. But because of not having cap room it is the line that they are stuck with in 2020.

You mean they couldn't have signed anybody else in free agency other than Whitworth and Blythe. Well then we're doomed right?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

You mean they couldn't have signed anybody else in free agency other than Whitworth and Blythe. Well then we're doomed right?

Maybe. We'll find out in the fall, hopefully.

 

[PARAM]

I want to present a question for all. It's been perceived our O line played bad most of the year. And it's also been perceived the replacements played better than the original 5. So my question is this and it's two-fold. What games with our original five were "shitty O line performances" and what games with our replacements were "good O line performances"? I'm really curious because if we're gonna talk the talk, let's walk the walk. Don't just say "they didn't play well" or "they played better". Give some examples.

 

[PARAM]

I want to present a question for all. It's been perceived our O line played bad most of the year. And it's also been perceived the replacements played better than the original 5. So my question is this and it's two-fold. What games with our original five were "shitty O line performances" and what games with our replacements were "good O line performances"? I'm really curious because if we're gonna talk the talk, let's walk the walk. Don't just say "they didn't play well" or "they played better". Give some examples.

Well with no takers, here's what I've got.

PPG: Original 5 starters in games completed; 28 PPG
Final 5 starters (7 games); 22.1 PPG

Sacks: Original 5 starters in games completed; 8 sackes (1.8 / g)
Final 5 starters (7 games); 6 sacks (0.9 / g)

RB rushing yards: Original 5 starters in games completed; 78.8 ypg; 4.4 ypc
Final 5 starters (7 games); 75.3 ypg; 3.6 ypc

Passing yards: Original 5 starters in games completed; 1608 yards (321.6 ypg)
Final 5 starters (7 games); 2005 yds (286.4 ypg)

Those 4 games in between when Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein went down?

PPG: 16 PPG
Sacks: 8 (2 / g)
RB rushing yards: 331 (82.8 ypg); 4.3 ypc
Passing yards: 984 (246 ypg)

 

[kurtfaulk]

Well with no takers, here's what I've got.

PPG: Original 5 starters in games completed; 28 PPG
Final 5 starters (7 games); 22.1 PPG

Sacks: Original 5 starters in games completed; 8 sackes (1.8 / g)
Final 5 starters (7 games); 6 sacks (0.9 / g)

RB rushing yards: Original 5 starters in games completed; 78.8 ypg; 4.4 ypc
Final 5 starters (7 games); 75.3 ypg; 3.6 ypc

Passing yards: Original 5 starters in games completed; 1608 yards (321.6 ypg)
Final 5 starters (7 games); 2005 yds (286.4 ypg)

Those 4 games in between when Noteboom, Allen and Havenstein went down?

PPG: 16 PPG
Sacks: 8 (2 / g)
RB rushing yards: 331 (82.8 ypg); 4.3 ypc
Passing yards: 984 (246 ypg)

please do the last 5 games only when mcvay changed things up. i think the results will be markedly better.

.

 

[PARAM]

please do the last 5 games only when mcvay changed things up. i think the results will be markedly better.

Last 5 games vs. 1st 5

PPG: last 5 26.4; first 5 28.0
Sacks: Last 5, 4 sacks; first 5, 8 sacks
RB yards: Last 5, 393 yds 3.5 ypc; first 5, 394 yds 4.4 ypc
Passing yards: Last 5, 1633 yds, 326.6 ypg; first 5, 1608, 321.6 ypg

Yeah the the numbers were closer, really close, comparing those 2. But the opening 5 didn't have the luxury of playing 2 games to warm up to each other, particularly with no preseason reps. The last 5 guys played 7 games together. If we wanted to make a more fair comparison of even amount of games, it would be the final 5's first 5 games vs the first 5's first 5 games.

PPG: First five; 28.0 ppg ; Last five, 18.6 ppg
Sacks: First five, 8 ; Last five, 5
RB yards: First five, 394 yds (78.8 ypg) 4.4 ypc ; Last five, 379 (75.8 ypg ) 3.8 ypc
Passing yards: First five, 1608 (321.6 ypg) ; Last five, 1371 (274.2 ypg)

I'm telling you the original starting 5, particularly the youngsters, are not given the credit they deserve. Fans only remember the bad stuff. For instance nobody talks about how they came out of the gate with no preseason opening holes for their RBs (not RBs and WRs) to gain 260 yards on 47 carries (5.5 ypc). 30 and 27 points for a 2 game average of 28.5 PPG. But more important, 2-0 in the win column. The team went 7-7 the rest of the way.

Here's another question. Was it a Gurley thing? He carried the ball 30 times for 160 yards in those first two weeks. After that he didn't break 50 seven times and only broke 75, 3 times. Malcolm Brown had 11 carries for 53 yards in week 1 (4.82) and only got more than 6 carries twice the rest of the year.

 

[ReddingRam]

Man guys ... my head hurts from this thread :explode:

 

[PARAM]

Man guys ... my head hurts from this thread :explode:

Point taken. I'm beating a dead horse, particularly with the schedule release tonight. My last point.

In 6 of our 7 losses the defense allowed 35.7 PPG. In 3 of our 7 losses the offense scored 31.3 (34, 29 and 31). You can not lose 3 games when your offense is at 30 points. It's totally unacceptable. So we can point to the O line and they had troubles....injuries, warts, what-have-you. But I can't in good conscience say "our biggest issue in 2019 was our O line". Not with losing 3 games when our offense put up and average of 31.3 points. Win any one of them and we're in the playoffs. Win 2 and we're 11-5. There were 6 games in a stretch of 7, 4 before the Baltimore debacle, 2 after when our defense allowed just 50 points, 8.3 ppg. We went 5-1. The other 10 games they allowed 270 (27 PPG). We went 4-6 in those.

The offense scored 27 points or more in 9 games. We went 6-3.
The defense allowed 20 points or fewer in 9 games. We went 7-2.

By my count the offense cost us 2 games, the defense 3, special teams 1 and the other was a total group effort.