The Goff thread to end all Goff threads

[FarNorth]

For Kurt, he never had a statistically poor full season like Goff did. The outrage by Rams fans made sense there as he was a two time MVP.

I don't know what statistics you are talking about. You did however pique my curiosity as I am a fan of both quarterbacks. Actually Warner's and Goff's statistics with the Rams are very comparable.

In the 4 years Warner actually played with the Rams (1929-2002) Warner threw for 14,000 yards, 101 tds, and 64 ints.

In the 4 years Goff played with the Rams under McVay (2017-2020) Goff threw for 17,000 yards, 102 tds, and 48 ints.

(Yes, I'm excluding Goff's 7 games under the dysfunctional Fisher offense. And Goff did play 62 games to Warner's 50 in those spans.)

Worst years?

In 2020 Goff threw for 3952 yards, 20 tds and 13 ints in 15 games.

In 2003 Warner threw for 1421 yards, 3 tds and 11 ints in 7 games.
In 2004-2006 with NY and Arizona, Warner threw for 6000+ yards, 23 tds, and 18 ints in 26 games.
During that 4 year span altogether Kurt had about 6500 yards, 26 tds, and 29 ints in 34 games.

Oh wait-- those don't count because they weren't full seasons? Right, got it.

Conclusion?

Warner was great playing with Hall of Famers Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Torre Holt, and Orlando Pace. Goff would have done really well with that cast too. So, too, would Warner playing with the Rams when they had Gurley, Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and an outstanding offensive line. And of course Warner was brilliant again later in taking the Cardinals to the Super Bowl.

Neither did as well with less distinguished not to say flawed offenses.

 

[jrry32]

For Kurt, he never had a statistically poor full season like Goff did. The outrage by Rams fans made sense there as he was a two time MVP.

Ah, so now you can understand people defending a QB who had stats even worse than Goff's over his final two years here. And I hardly think that Goff struggling to stay healthy and playing so poorly that he got benched over the past two years would have made people more eager to support him. But people supported Kurt because he dug us out of the hole we had been stuck in for over a decade and provided great play during his peak.

I was hyperbolic in talking about Jimmy, but the point I was trying to make was that he and Goff are the same caliber QB when healthy, and Niner fans that I've interacted with at various sites have never spoken very highly of him. Even when assuming health, I've only seen them refer to him as an average and replaceable QB. It's still a baseless claim, but my experience nonetheless.

Difference is that Goff isn't Jimmy's age and doesn't have Jimmy's physical limitations. Goff still had/has potential to grow.

When I say I can't understand it - I mean I can - I've been an NBA fan for most of my life, and it's very common to be a fan of a player. Its hard to see how that happens for football, but the only logical conclusion for the divisiveness here is that some hold the Rams and Goff as equals in terms of fandom.

I don't root for clothes or a logo. I genuinely become a fan of a lot of guys who play for this team. Unless they burn that bridge on the way out (like Gurley did imo), I root for many of them in their next stop. I rooted for Kurt in New York and Arizona. I rooted for Ike in San Francisco. I'll be rooting for Brock and Goff in Detroit and JJIII in Cleveland. And yes, I don't like when the Rams push out players I like, especially when I disagree with the move.

I'm an optimist with this team. I'm a sunshine pumper. I'm passionate. But I'm not a Kool Aid drinker. When I see shit I don't like, I call it out. And when I see the team mistreat a player I do like, I express that opinion. But being blunt, why do you care if I or others did hold the Rams and Goff "as equals in terms of fandom"?

 

[jrry32]

He was better than Goff by quite a bit in those two full seasons though - don't get me wrong, I had no problem moving on from Warner just like no problem moving on from Goff. I can just see Rams fans being more upset as Kurt was a two time MVP, and significantly better than Goff.

For me it was the same - but I can see fans being more upset about letting the Super Bowl MVP go

If you can understand it with Kurt, you should be able to understand with Goff, even if Goff wasn't as good as Kurt. We were a crap franchise during the 90's. Kurt helped dig us out of that and brought us winning football and a Super Bowl. Goff came up short in the Super Bowl, but he helped dig us out of a decade plus of losing football and helped take us to the big game. It shouldn't be hard to understand why some of us appreciate that and support the guy.

 

[kurtfaulk]

I don't root for clothes or a logo. I genuinely become a fan of a lot of guys who play for this team.

I concur.

.

 

[FrantikRam]

Ah, so now you can understand people defending a QB who had stats even worse than Goff's over his final two years here. And I hardly think that Goff struggling to stay healthy and playing so poorly that he got benched over the past two years would have made people more eager to support him. But people supported Kurt because he dug us out of the hole we had been stuck in for over a decade and provided great play during his peak.



Difference is that Goff isn't Jimmy's age and doesn't have Jimmy's physical limitations. Goff still had/has potential to grow.



I don't root for clothes or a logo. I genuinely become a fan of a lot of guys who play for this team. Unless they burn that bridge on the way out (like Gurley did imo), I root for many of them in their next stop. I rooted for Kurt in New York and Arizona. I rooted for Ike in San Francisco. I'll be rooting for Brock and Goff in Detroit and JJIII in Cleveland. And yes, I don't like when the Rams push out players I like, especially when I disagree with the move.

I'm an optimist with this team. I'm a sunshine pumper. I'm passionate. But I'm not a Kool Aid drinker. When I see shit I don't like, I call it out. And when I see the team mistreat a player I do like, I express that opinion. But being blunt, why do you care if I or others did hold the Rams and Goff "as equals in terms of fandom"?

You're right that it's not my business - it just makes for conflicting loyalties and many people - not you - flat out ignored the fact that Goff was not a good QB last year.

I also criticize them when I disagree with a move - I didn't agree with re-signing Floyd - but the ability to be objective goes away when you like something/someone. This site has felt like the twilight zone - it's so obvious to me that Goff was a below average QB for the past two years, with a top 5 coach, an above average supporting cast and a top 5 contract. Very obvious to me that trading him was the right deccoach and I think that'll be proven right over the next few years. However, it's possible that I'm wrong and I'll have no problem admitting that.

I do root for the jersey and the players who wear it - but the clothes and logo come first for me, so that explains that difference.

 

[FrantikRam]

I don't know what statistics you are talking about. You did however pique my curiosity as I am a fan of both quarterbacks. Actually Warner's and Goff's statistics with the Rams are very comparable.

In the 4 years Warner actually played with the Rams (1929-2002) Warner threw for 14,000 yards, 101 tds, and 64 ints.

In the 4 years Goff played with the Rams under McVay (2017-2020) Goff threw for 17,000 yards, 102 tds, and 48 ints.

(Yes, I'm excluding Goff's 7 games under the dysfunctional Fisher offense. And Goff did play 62 games to Warner's 50 in those spans.)

Worst years?

In 2020 Goff threw for 3952 yards, 20 tds and 13 ints in 15 games.

In 2003 Warner threw for 1421 yards, 3 tds and 11 ints in 7 games.
In 2004-2006 with NY and Arizona, Warner threw for 6000+ yards, 23 tds, and 18 ints in 26 games.
During that 4 year span altogether Kurt had about 6500 yards, 26 tds, and 29 ints in 34 games.

Oh wait-- those don't count because they weren't full seasons? Right, got it.

Conclusion?

Warner was great playing with Hall of Famers Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Torre Holt, and Orlando Pace. Goff would have done really well with that cast too. So, too, would Warner playing with the Rams when they had Gurley, Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and an outstanding offensive line. And of course Warner was brilliant again later in taking the Cardinals to the Super Bowl.

Neither did as well with less distinguished not to say flawed offenses.

You're also comparing two different eras.

Warner was better than Goff, no logical debate to be had there. As far as the GSOT supporting cast - a lot of QBs would have done well with it.

But at the end of the day, I was fine letting both QBs go. I was just saying the Warner outrage made more sense to me personally.

 

[jrry32]

I also criticize them when I disagree with a move - I didn't agree with re-signing Floyd - but the ability to be objective goes away when you like something/someone.

I agree with you on Floyd. And I like Leonard Floyd.

This site has felt like the twilight zone - it's so obvious to me that Goff was a below average QB for the past two years, with a top 5 coach, an above average supporting cast and a top 5 contract.

That was my feeling on 2019 after the year, but I'm not so sure that feeling is right anymore. Since examining the numbers when I was making a situational play-calling point about Stafford and Goff, I have felt that Goff's 2019 season is actually underrated. The turnovers were problematic, but McVay's situational play-calling shorted him somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 TDs. And had Goff thrown for 4600+ yards and 32 to 34 TDs, I think most people would look back on his 2019 season as pretty good. His 2020 season, conversely, stunk. You'll get no disagreement from me there.

 

[Tano]

I agree with you on Floyd. And I like Leonard Floyd.



That was my feeling on 2019 after the year, but I'm not so sure that feeling is right anymore. Since examining the numbers when I was making a situational play-calling point about Stafford and Goff, I have felt that Goff's 2019 season is actually underrated. The turnovers were problematic, but McVay's situational play-calling shorted him somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 TDs. And had Goff thrown for 4600+ yards and 32 to 34 TDs, I think most people would look back on his 2019 season as pretty good. His 2020 season, conversely, stunk. You'll get no disagreement from me there.

He who shall remain nameless (I am sticking to that) was playing so well too before the Miami game.

And then he got shell shocked by McVay's play calling from that game and went down the tube from there trying to make things happen because of all the criticism he got from that game. My feeling is that the Seattle interception and the SF Fumble don't happen if not for that game. Miami was the killer game. And I blame a lot of it on McVay based on my review of the game although HWSRN deserves as much blame as well for his decisions he made.

Too bad Everett dropped that pass because if the Rams had come back to win that game - the entire last season could have played out so much differently since HWSRN would have gotten both criticism for the first half but such compliments for overcoming a terrible first half with his play in the fourth quarter.

 

[dieterbrock]

He was better than Goff by quite a bit in those two full seasons though - don't get me wrong, I had no problem moving on from Warner just like no problem moving on from Goff. I can just see Rams fans being more upset as Kurt was a two time MVP, and significantly better than Goff.

For me it was the same - but I can see fans being more upset about letting the Super Bowl MVP go

Point being, this is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps threads like this going. Creating double standards which put down Goff but dont shine negatively on the other. Warner's last season was awful, worse than even Goff's rookie year. 13 TO in 6 games, 14 ppg and 0-6 in his starts. To make matters worse, with the same personnel, he was outplayed by Jamie Martin of all people, and of course Bulger.
It's the seeming insistence on salting the earth with Goff departure, creating some sort of revisionist history to remember JG as a Jeff Fisher of QBs, that makes me call BS. The guy was an integral part of possibly the greatest 1 year turnaround and played great football for the Rams. As a fan, I feel indebted to players like that, so the shitting on him just because he wasnt good enough in McVay's eyes is just weak sauce.
He's one of the 3 best QB to play for the Rams in my lifetime, going back over 40 years, and deserves the respect of such. Crazy to think he's still got an entire career left ahead of him

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I recommend not reading between the lines. What I am saying is that McVay shouldn't be exonerated from blame when Goff struggled. Goff has his issues and is at fault for not doing better. But part of McVay's job is to mask those issues. McVay isn't at fault when Goff flatly does stupid things, like the INT against Seattle or the fumble against SF when he scrambled. But he does share the blame when his game plan walks Goff into situations where the defense can capitalize on his weaknesses.

The first half against Miami is an example of that. Goff is at fault for not giving up on plays doomed from the start and ultimately turning it over. McVay is at fault for calling plays that were doomed at the start and putting his QB in a bad spot. I'm simply tired of people recognizing the ways in which McVay helped Goff to succeed but failing to recognize when he put Goff in bad spots. Both guys deserve credit. Both guys deserve blame. Some people recognize that and are fair about it. Others were not so good about it and preferred to blame Goff whenever things went wrong. In their minds, McVay was the genius propping him up when things went well over the past two years and Goff was the idiot ruining McVay's brilliant scheming and plans when things went poorly.

No Goff was the guy holding it back.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Funny how people forget those things about Warner. He was an all time great for the Rams without a doubt. But wasn't without flaws. People also talk about him getting hit a lot and getting beat up and he was sacked just a little a bit more than Jared was.

7 step drops and long developing plays. His offense got QBs beat up. Plus Martz wasn’t as concerned with interceptions with his high scoring scheme.

Comparing stats for two different QBs in two different offenses twenty years apart is a bit skewed imo.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I don't know what statistics you are talking about. You did however pique my curiosity as I am a fan of both quarterbacks. Actually Warner's and Goff's statistics with the Rams are very comparable.

In the 4 years Warner actually played with the Rams (1929-2002) Warner threw for 14,000 yards, 101 tds, and 64 ints.

In the 4 years Goff played with the Rams under McVay (2017-2020) Goff threw for 17,000 yards, 102 tds, and 48 ints.

(Yes, I'm excluding Goff's 7 games under the dysfunctional Fisher offense. And Goff did play 62 games to Warner's 50 in those spans.)

Worst years?

In 2020 Goff threw for 3952 yards, 20 tds and 13 ints in 15 games.

In 2003 Warner threw for 1421 yards, 3 tds and 11 ints in 7 games.
In 2004-2006 with NY and Arizona, Warner threw for 6000+ yards, 23 tds, and 18 ints in 26 games.
During that 4 year span altogether Kurt had about 6500 yards, 26 tds, and 29 ints in 34 games.

Oh wait-- those don't count because they weren't full seasons? Right, got it.

Conclusion?

Warner was great playing with Hall of Famers Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Torre Holt, and Orlando Pace. Goff would have done really well with that cast too. So, too, would Warner playing with the Rams when they had Gurley, Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and an outstanding offensive line. And of course Warner was brilliant again later in taking the Cardinals to the Super Bowl.

Neither did as well with less distinguished not to say flawed offenses.

Goff = Warner second time in the same thread, but this time I think it was intended.

Warner moved on and continued be great. Somehow I don’t think that’s going to happen with Jarred. Just a hunch.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Point being, this is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps threads like this going. Creating double standards which put down Goff but dont shine negatively on the other. Warner's last season was awful, worse than even Goff's rookie year. 13 TO in 6 games, 14 ppg and 0-6 in his starts. To make matters worse, with the same personnel, he was outplayed by Jamie Martin of all people, and of course Bulger.
It's the seeming insistence on salting the earth with Goff departure, creating some sort of revisionist history to remember JG as a Jeff Fisher of QBs, that makes me call BS. The guy was an integral part of possibly the greatest 1 year turnaround and played great football for the Rams. As a fan, I feel indebted to players like that, so the shitting on him just because he wasnt good enough in McVay's eyes is just weak sauce.
He's one of the 3 best QB to play for the Rams in my lifetime, going back over 40 years, and deserves the respect of such. Crazy to think he's still got an entire career left ahead of him

Warner = Goff three times in one thread

 

[Tano]

No Goff was the guy holding it back.

:explode:

 

[dieterbrock]

Warner = Goff three times in one thread

Missed my point completely, congrats on that. Pretty much makes my point at the same time.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Missed my point completely, congrats on that. Pretty much makes my point at the same time.

I don’t even utter those names in the same conversation. It’s blasphemy

And to be honest I stopped reading the entirety of the long drug out posts of this inane thread.

 

[FrantikRam]

Point being, this is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps threads like this going. Creating double standards which put down Goff but dont shine negatively on the other. Warner's last season was awful, worse than even Goff's rookie year. 13 TO in 6 games, 14 ppg and 0-6 in his starts. To make matters worse, with the same personnel, he was outplayed by Jamie Martin of all people, and of course Bulger.
It's the seeming insistence on salting the earth with Goff departure, creating some sort of revisionist history to remember JG as a Jeff Fisher of QBs, that makes me call BS. The guy was an integral part of possibly the greatest 1 year turnaround and played great football for the Rams. As a fan, I feel indebted to players like that, so the shitting on him just because he wasnt good enough in McVay's eyes is just weak sauce.
He's one of the 3 best QB to play for the Rams in my lifetime, going back over 40 years, and deserves the respect of such. Crazy to think he's still got an entire career left ahead of him

Well again, for me it's not a double standard. I agreed with moving on from both QBs.

My main point was that I can understand fans being more upset about moving on from Kurt because he was the QB of our only Super Bowl winning team, as well as a two time MVP. I agree that he fell harder than Goff, but he was also better to begin with and because of that, would hypothetically have a longer rope with a lot of fans.

 

[dieterbrock]

Well again, for me it's not a double standard. I agreed with moving on from both QBs.

My main point was that I can understand fans being more upset about moving on from Kurt because he was the QB of our only Super Bowl winning team, as well as a two time MVP. I agree that he fell harder than Goff, but he was also better to begin with and because of that, would hypothetically have a longer rope with a lot of fans.

Exactly, you liked Kurt, don’t like Goff.

 

[Neil039]

Shouldn’t Roman Gabriel be in the HOF?

Oh..good luck Jared and thanks Kurt!

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I tried this with the other Goff thread. I hope it works this time