The Goff-season Thread

[Shuie3225]

Processing speed.. extending plays with his legs...ability to move and reset his launch point which allows for longer developing plays. All the things that Goff doesn't do well.

If we have a $35M backup we will be the laughingstocks of the NFL. If these are the traits that McVay covets we need to trade Goff.

 

[thirteen28]

View attachment 43258


Processing speed.. extending plays with his legs...ability to move and reset his launch point which allows for longer developing plays. All the things that Goff doesn't do well.

If we have a $35M backup we will be the laughingstocks of the NFL. If these are the traits that McVay covets we need to trade Goff.

If McVay legitimately thinks Wolford is a better long-term solution to the QB position than Goff, then maybe he's not quite as smart as we have been led to believe. I suspect they are just talking Wolford up to give the perception of legitimate competition for Goff in the event they have to keep him next year, but if not ... hoo boy. I like Wolford as a backup, but he has nowhere near the arm talent that Goff does. It's not even close.

 

[Shuie3225]

If McVay legitimately thinks Wolford is a better long-term solution to the QB position than Goff, then maybe he's not quite as smart as we have been led to believe. I suspect they are just talking Wolford up to give the perception of legitimate competition for Goff in the event they have to keep him next year, but if not ... hoo boy. I like Wolford as a backup, but he has nowhere near the arm talent that Goff does. It's not even close.

I'm not sure what McVay thinks and I doubt Walford is his long term answer. Walford definitely doesn't have the arm talent Goff does. Not too many do. But Goff lacks the mental capacity McVay wants IMO. And Walford offers the ability to process, ability to go through reads better IMO. In his one game vs AZ you saw him go through 3-4 progressions on multiple throws, just watch his eyes. Plus he offers all the athletic ability upside which Goff doesn't.

More than anything I think it just showed McVay he can win with other QBs. And it showed him if he gets someone like DeShaun Watson (who I really think we are targeting) how unstoppable his offense could be. Because Watson has the mental acumen, arm talent, and movement ability. Which is why I think we should offer up the farm for him.

 

[thirteen28]

nd Walford offers the ability to process, ability to go through reads better IMO. In his one game vs AZ you saw him go through 3-4 progressions on multiple throws, just watch his eyes. Plus he offers all the athletic ability upside which Goff doesn't.

So you're basing that all off of one game where the Rams O got 3 FGs, against a team that Goff has routinely shredded. Ok.

More than anything I think it just showed McVay he can win with other QBs. And it showed him if he gets someone like DeShaun Watson (who I really think we are targeting) how unstoppable his offense could be. Because Watson has both the mental acumen, arm talent, and movement ability. Which is why I think we should offer up the farm for him.

Offer up the farm and then decimate the team around him ... kinda like the situation he had in Houston. And we still are on the hook for dead cap with Goff, it's not a question of if, it's only a question of when, depending on when the trade is consumated.

And BTW, here's Watson's cap numbers going forward. Next year isn't bad, but after that ... ouch.

Salary cap number: 2021-$15.9 million, 2022-$40.4 million, 2023-$42.4 million, 2024-$34.7 million, 2025-$32 million

Source: https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams...-targets-goff-rodgers-watson-prescott-darnold

Don't get me wrong, I think Watson is a better QB than Goff. But people are getting their hopes up without looking at the full picture, not only how hard it would be to get him but how much it will impact the team down the road.

 

[Shuie3225]

So you're basing that all off of one game where the Rams O got 3 FGs, against a team that Goff has routinely shredded. Ok.

I'm not trying to get into a Wolford debate.. like I said I dont think he's the long term solution. But he has traits that McVay likes more than what Goff has.

And I've seen many people say Wolford got 3 FGs against AZ. It's so funny people try to use that as a legit argument when Akers fumbled at the 2 yard line. Two consecutive false starts within the 5 yard line. And a dropped TD by Everett on a literal perfectly thrown fade. Zero of those were Wolford's fault. So if we score 21 there, or even conservatively 14 points on those three possessions, your point is irrelevant.

Regarding Watson yes, you give up the farm for him. Trade Goff for a 1st, then trade three 1st rounders + whatever it takes to get. We just gave up two 1st rounders for Ramsey and a lot of people bitched. Those of us that recognize elite, generational, HOF talent knew it was a steal. Three 1st rounders+ whatever for Watson will be a steal.

I mean fuck we traded three 1st rounders for Goff and you dont want to do the same for Watson?? If we are short on draft capital for the next few years so be it. But you will not win a Super Bowl these days with an average QB.

 

[Ram_Rally]

Trade Goff to a good team that needs a QB for a first. Trade that first and future firsts for Watson.

Washington or indy!

 

[payote75]

Washington or indy!

Assuming Houston doesn't want goff that's what I been trying to say for the last week lolol.

 

[Ram_Rally]

Assuming Houston doesn't want goff that's what I been trying to say for the last week lolol.

We have watson exhaustion! Lol

 

[thirteen28]

And I've seen many people say Wolford got 3 FGs against AZ. It's so funny people try to use that as a legit argument when Akers fumbled at the 2 yard line. Two consecutive false starts within the 5 yard line. And a dropped TD by Everett on a literal perfectly thrown fade. Zero of those were Wolford's fault. So if we score 21 there, or even conservatively 14 points on those three possessions, your point is irrelevant.

And yet when people fumble on the goal line or we can't punch it in on four tries (like against the second Seattle game), Goff still gets the blame for the loss. Against the 9ers he threw a perfect pass to Kupp in the end zone, Kupp dropped it ... and Goff was blamed for that loss.

I'm not taking anything away from Wolford's performance against the Cardinals, but simply put, he played like a quality backup QB because that's what he is. Basing any conclusions about him being better at anything other than mobility over Goff using a one game sample size is ridiculous.

Regarding Watson yes, you give up the farm for him. Trade Goff for a 1st, then trade three 1st rounders + whatever it takes to get. We just gave up two 1st rounders for Ramsey and a lot of people bitched. Those of us that recognize elite, generational, HOF talent knew it was a steal. Three 1st rounders+ whatever for Watson will be a steal.

At some point though, you have to stop giving up the farm. Again, while I'll acknowledge Watson is a better QB than Goff, I'm not sure he's a generational talent, at least not yet. And as mentioned, no matter when we trade Goff if we do, we are going to be on the hook for his guaranteed money. Whether it counts against the cap next year or the year after that depends on when the trade becomes official, but a lot of people are under the impression that the cap hit just magically disappears if the trade is official after June 1st. It's not, most of it is just pushed to the next year. That, and we'll have a QB on our roster with an even bigger cap hit in 2022, $40 million, plus dead money from the QB we got rid of, significantly less draft capital, and little cap room to sign free agents. That's the recipe for building the same kind of team that Watson would be coming from, one where he's lacking talent around him and thus the team finishes with a losing record even if he personally plays well.

People are just glossing over the true, full cost of bringing in a guy like Watson and getting rid of Goff, treating it as if it's a 1-for-1 swap in a no salary cap league. But it's not. And the desire for instant gratification, instead of patience with a young QB who has shown the ability to play at a very high level when he has a quality OL in front of him and good playcalling behind him. At best, it's a huge, huge gamble that has far more ways to go wrong that it does to go right.

 

[payote75]

We have watson exhaustion! Lol

And the seasons not even over yet. Lol it's amazing how the NFL with ok now a 17 game season stays so relevant through out the year.

 

[Shuie3225]

And yet when people fumble on the goal line or we can't punch it in on four tries (like against the second Seattle game), Goff still gets the blame for the loss. Against the 9ers he threw a perfect pass to Kupp in the end zone, Kupp dropped it ... and Goff was blamed for that loss.

I'm not taking anything away from Wolford's performance against the Cardinals, but simply put, he played like a quality backup QB because that's what he is. Basing any conclusions about him being better at anything other than mobility over Goff using a one game sample size is ridiculous.

I've never blamed Goff for those things, that's ridiculous. Dont group me in with other people around here and use it as an argument against me, I never said that. And if you go back and watch the Wolford film, its VERY evident how well he goes through his progressions. It's not farfetched to say he reads a defense better or goes through progressions better than Goff. Which is insane to say after one start and Goff being in his 5th year. But that's what I saw. Go back and watch his game again. And I think this is part of McVay's core issue with Goff. Ability to process and understand what the defense is doing, then make a quick decision.

At some point though, you have to stop giving up the farm. Again, while I'll acknowledge Watson is a better QB than Goff, I'm not sure he's a generational talent, at least not yet. And as mentioned, no matter when we trade Goff if we do, we are going to be on the hook for his guaranteed money. Whether it counts against the cap next year or the year after that depends on when the trade becomes official, but a lot of people are under the impression that the cap hit just magically disappears if the trade is official after June 1st. It's not, most of it is just pushed to the next year. That, and we'll have a QB on our roster with an even bigger cap hit in 2022, $40 million, plus dead money from the QB we got rid of, significantly less draft capital, and little cap room to sign free agents. That's the recipe for building the same kind of team that Watson would be coming from, one where he's lacking talent around him and thus the team finishes with a losing record even if he personally plays well.

People are just glossing over the true, full cost of bringing in a guy like Watson and getting rid of Goff, treating it as if it's a 1-for-1 swap in a no salary cap league. But it's not. And the desire for instant gratification, instead of patience with a young QB who has shown the ability to play at a very high level when he has a quality OL in front of him and good playcalling behind him. At best, it's a huge, huge gamble that has far more ways to go wrong that it does to go right.

If you dont think Watson is a generational talent then my honest guess is you haven't watched him very much or very closely. Watching game highlights on ESPN is different from watching him play a full game. I mean the guy led the NFL in passing yards this year with a trash roster and was like 3rd in completion % and had 36TDs. I've been watching Watson since his ACC days (my brother is a Clemson fan and lives in SC) and he is an absolute game changer. Watch the kind of leader and competitor he is. He is INFECTIOUS. And elite QBs in their absolute prime are NEVER available via trade. Never. Thats why this is such a big deal. If we seriously land him and he's paired with McVay, he will dominate for 10 years and will bring us at least 1 Super Bowl. Guaranteed.

Personally I'm less concerned about the money than most. Because when you get a true difference maker at QB, it makes up for a lot of other areas. And Snead and the Rams front office have shown they can manipulate the cap in different ways, its more flexible than you think. Like I said if we need to be light on draft picks for a few years, or lose a couple FAs to land Watson then that's what we need to do! If McVay has decided Goff is not the guy anymore (which I think McVay decided late this year) or thinks he cant develop him further, you do whatever you have to do to get an elite QB.

 

[Ellard80]

Do you have any examples? I haven't seen anyone suggest McVay only won because of Goff I have only seen it suggested the other way around. I am certainly in the camp that Goff gets way too much hate but I think McVay is an amazing coach and the biggest cog to our turn around.

Too much work to look through 1000 page thread.. plus it would just start about 5 back and forths with various people - which Isn't what this thread needs more of.

 

[TexasRam]

its making me laugh a little bit... one hand people want to say the QB isn't too blame because of otehr issues... but then acting like McVay only won because of Goff - you can't have it both ways.

People do realize that goff was 0-7 before mcvay got here right?

Listen Goff gets credit for sure... but you guys are just insane.

McVay is the reason we have come back.

How does Bilichick look without Brady.

It cuts both ways.

Goffs WR’s before Mcvay were Tavon Austin and Kenny Britt. No Whit, No Sullivan. Jeff Fishers offense.

Goff and Mcvay is a marriage of two talented individuals that when surrounded by solid players have made it to the highest level.

 

[Ellard80]

How does Bilichick look without Brady.

It cuts both ways.

Goffs WR’s before Mcvay were Tavon Austin and Kenny Britt. No Whit, No Sullivan. Jeff Fishers offense.

Goff and Mcvay is a marriage of two talented individuals that when surrounded by solid players have made it to the highest level.

So ill put is this way

You have to chose between keeping mcvay or keep goff.

what would you do? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.


Replacing the coach and the QB is a crap shoot

But I think the answer is obvious.....

 

[thirteen28]

It's not farfetched to say he reads a defense better or goes through progressions better than Goff. Which is insane to say after one start and Goff being in his 5th year.

Yes, it is insane, because it's a small sample size and it's something we've seen Goff do very well at many times in the past. He did it just fine a few weeks before Wolford against the same defense in their house and he torched them. Goff has done it well against better defenses too, as he did against the Bucs this season in another road game against a defense that was much, much better than that of the Cardinals. So please ... spare us. Wolford played a nice game, but drawing any sweeping conclusions that he's better than Goff at going through progressions or reading defenses is just silly. Goff would have never played at the level he did or got the Rams to the Super Bowl if he wasn't good at that.

If you dont think Watson is a generational talent then my honest guess is you haven't watched him very much or very closely. Watching game highlights on ESPN is different from watching him play a full game.

I think Watson is a very good QB, easily top 5 in the league, but after 4 years I'm not ready to say he's a generational talent, at least not in the way a guy like Aaron Donald is. I'll grant you he has the ability to become a generational talent, but he's not there yet. Maybe he ends his career being considered that, but you can't say that now. Nobody denies Peyton Manning is a generational talent now, but after 4 years in the league, nobody could say that for sure he was.

Personally I'm less concerned about the money than most. Because when you get a true difference maker at QB, it makes up for a lot of other areas. And Snead and the Rams front office have shown they can manipulate the cap in different ways, its more flexible than you think.

And that's what I mean by people glossing over the true costs of dumping Goff and bringing in Watson. The cap is more flexible for players currently on a roster, but it's pretty hardcore for guys that get cut. We are going to take a significant cap hit for Goff if we trade him, again, it's just a matter of when. And we are also still on the hook for over $ 8 million for Gurley next season. Watson is going to have a huge cap hit in 2022, bigger than any Goff would have with the Rams if he remained with us. Then we're looking at giving up a shitload of draft capital on top of that. So we won't have the cap money to keep our own guys who become free agents or get decent new ones, and we won't have the draft capital to replace them all.

 

[thirteen28]

So ill put is this way

You have to chose between keeping mcvay or keep goff.

what would you do? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.


Replacing the coach and the QB is a crap shoot

But I think the answer is obvious.....

Part of that would depend on who replaces Goff and the talent the new QB has around him.

Martz thought he could run his offense with anybody and hitched his wagon to Marc Bulger. Then he drafted poorly, let good free agents walk, and so on. By the time Warner was leading the Cardinals (the fucking Cardinals of all teams) to the Super Bowl, Martz was bouncing around the league as an OC and wearing out his welcome everywhere he went.

Now I'm not saying McVay owes Goff credit for all his success. But still, Goff was the QB for all but one of his wins with the Rams. And I don't think anyone believes McVay's record would have been as good had he inherited someone like one of our other retread QBs we had in the years prior to Goff either. They both owe each other a lot for the success of the last four seasons, and that illustrates why this current situation is so fucking stupid, short-sighted, and driven by impatience and maybe some egos as well.

 

[RamsSince1969]

NFL record for most rushing yards by a quarterback in a single game (181 yards).

Kap has been hit so many times, by playing running back at the QB position, it has to have taken its toll on him physically and mentally.

 

[Shuie3225]

Yes, it is insane, because it's a small sample size and it's something we've seen Goff do very well at many times in the past. He did it just fine a few weeks before Wolford against the same defense in their house and he torched them. Goff has done it well against better defenses too, as he did against the Bucs this season in another road game against a defense that was much, much better than that of the Cardinals. So please ... spare us. Wolford played a nice game, but drawing any sweeping conclusions that he's better than Goff at going through progressions or reading defenses is just silly. Goff would have never played at the level he did or got the Rams to the Super Bowl if he wasn't good at that.

Sorry man I disagree, Goff is not good at going through progressions. He almost always throws to his 1st or 2nd read. Why do you think McVay calls so many boot leg rollouts for him? To simplify his progression to a half-field read. It's a weak part of his game. If you watch closely and objectively you will notice. Goff misses wide open WRs a lot because he locks onto his 1st read. Now go back and watch Wolford's eyes in his one start and tell me how many WRs he was going through in his progressions.

I think Watson is a very good QB, easily top 5 in the league, but after 4 years I'm not ready to say he's a generational talent, at least not in the way a guy like Aaron Donald is. I'll grant you he has the ability to become a generational talent, but he's not there yet. Maybe he ends his career being considered that, but you can't say that now. Nobody denies Peyton Manning is a generational talent now, but after 4 years in the league, nobody could say that for sure he was.

If you're judging generational talent by comparing them to AD then no one will measure up. When its all said and done AD will be the best to ever play his position. But Watson is a generational talent, his combination of intangibles + physical talent is all you could want in a QB. If you pair him with McVay it will equal Super Bowls.

And that's what I mean by people glossing over the true costs of dumping Goff and bringing in Watson. The cap is more flexible for players currently on a roster, but it's pretty hardcore for guys that get cut. We are going to take a significant cap hit for Goff if we trade him, again, it's just a matter of when. And we are also still on the hook for over $ 8 million for Gurley next season. Watson is going to have a huge cap hit in 2022, bigger than any Goff would have with the Rams if he remained with us. Then we're looking at giving up a shitload of draft capital on top of that. So we won't have the cap money to keep our own guys who become free agents or get decent new ones, and we won't have the draft capital to replace them all.

If we have to be light on draft capital or lose some Free Agents because we deal for Watson... then so be it. He's worth it. The cap will be going back up in 2022 so we cant project what that will be. For this upcoming year there are always ways to manipulate and work around the cap. Snead just said that in his interview a couple days ago. How long is our window on defense with a prime AD and prime Ramsey? We have Akers now on offense. We have a good group of pass catchers. And we've drafted extremely well as of late. I mean shit we haven't had a 1st round pick in 5 years and have hit on tons of players in rounds 2-5. I think Snead and McVay have earned some trust in that regard. Our ability to evaluate and draft in the mid rounds has been amazing lately.

 

[Mackeyser]

So you're basing that all off of one game where the Rams O got 3 FGs, against a team that Goff has routinely shredded. Ok.



Offer up the farm and then decimate the team around him ... kinda like the situation he had in Houston. And we still are on the hook for dead cap with Goff, it's not a question of if, it's only a question of when, depending on when the trade is consumated.

And BTW, here's Watson's cap numbers going forward. Next year isn't bad, but after that ... ouch.

Salary cap number: 2021-$15.9 million, 2022-$40.4 million, 2023-$42.4 million, 2024-$34.7 million, 2025-$32 million

Source: https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams...-targets-goff-rodgers-watson-prescott-darnold

Don't get me wrong, I think Watson is a better QB than Goff. But people are getting their hopes up without looking at the full picture, not only how hard it would be to get him but how much it will impact the team down the road.

No. Those cap numbers are if he’s Houston’s QB

Watson's salary is $10.5M.

We save money if we trade for Watson. That's not the issue.

The issue will be constructing the trade with players and picks palatable enough for Houston.

I think David Mulugheta will be the one to broker the deal and we've been dealing with him thus far and he'll be the one to sell the Texans on this.

That's my take.

 

[dieterbrock]

Houston has to trade him. If they get into a pissing contest, it will only harm their bargaining position. They aren't going to settle for shitty compensation, but they are going to make a deal happen this offseason imo.

I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying, actually saying the same thing.
Watson doesn’t have the power to choose one team who doesn’t have ample compensation.