The Goff-season Thread

[FrantikRam]

Okay, but even in believing that Trevor Lawrence is the best QB prospect in the Draft, I don't believe that he's guaranteed to be the best QB in the Draft. In making my evaluation, I am recognizing that when evaluating a range of scenarios, Trevor is the best bet to be a top 10 QB. Zach Wilson, Justin Fields, and Trey Lance, for example, all have scenarios where they could be better QBs. It's like Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson. Luck went #1 because he was a safe bet to be a top 10 QB. Yet, Wilson went in the third and became a better QB. Does that make Wilson a better QB prospect? I'd say no. He simply maximized his potential in the NFL.

My issue with your analysis is that it assumes a best case scenario with Stafford. You assume he fits seamlessly into this system. You assume that he stays healthy. And you assume that he doesn't have stinkers like Goff did. I can say that Stafford played better this year than Goff. But there's no guarantee we end up in an appreciably different situation. Even if we go 11-5 or 12-4, we don't end up with a bye. If we end up with the same injuries, I think we lose to the Saints. So we don't go any further.

But there are also some concerning things in Stafford's splits. First, Goff played his best ball this year in the 4th quarter of games. Stafford played his worst ball in the 4th quarter of games. Second, Stafford was far more effective out of the shotgun than he was under center. Third, Goff was a significantly more efficient passer in the redzone. Fourth, Stafford was a less efficient third down passer than Goff.

Obviously, none of us can say what Stafford would have been in our scheme this year with any sort of certainty. But I don't know that the scheme fit is as seamless as you believe. I think one particularly big issue would be the lack of explosive plays from our WRs. Maybe they have more with Stafford. But he would be more reliant on those sorts of plays with Goff being the more efficient player in the redzone. If they didn't manifest themselves, that could potentially lead to our offense scoring less points.

To put it simply, we can all make guesses. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not off base in calling it guesswork. I'm not as impressed by Stafford as you are. I think at their respective bests, Goff is the better QB. I think Stafford was a better QB this year, but there are fair questions as to how his game would translate to our scheme and talent. Ultimately, I think even this year, you're talking about a jump from a QB ranked around #20 and a QB ranked around #14. How much does that move the needle? I don't think it moves it nearly enough to declare with confidence that we'd have gone further in the playoffs or made the Super Bowl.

It's definitely guess work - but FWIW, I ALWAYS think about the team and factor that in when thinking about any players. I'm a firm believer that a lot of players careers would be drastically different in other situations.

There was one 16-ish game stretch from the middle of 2017 to the middle of 2018 where I thought Goff was better than Stafford - but in hindsight, I think that was the best supporting cast in the NFL during that time and I think a lot of QBs could have been as good as Goff was during that time.

I know that's an oversimplification and doesn't account for scheme - but I have so much faith in McVay to make it work. And I know people disagree with that and that's cool too - just explaining my thought process with the Stafford comment.

 

[Ramit]

I think those are good points, but I will add one more to them: plain old confidence.

If the line play is inconsistent (as it certainly was with Blythe at minimum) over a number of games, that's going to get into the QB's head. Ditto when the playcalling leaves something to be desired, as it often times did. When these things manifest themselves over a number of games in a season, habits start to form and confidence is affected such that it becomes more difficult to perform even when conditions are right, as one is no longer as sure of themselves and isn't as sure about what they are seeing. I'm sure most of you reading this have been through something similar in your life.

I honestly don't see how anyone could have confidence in Blythe knowing what we've seen. I don't know what Goff thinks of the playcalling, but many of us here do not have the same confidence in McVay's playcalling as we did during his first two years, and that's justifiable, even moreso this year now that the Gurley question was answered once and for all.

Oh I completely agree man, please see my previous posts on the subject!

 

[Ramit]

@thirteen28

Ok, so do you know what average means? I'm going to assume that you do. Heres the thing...I didn't say give him an average of 2.5 to 2.75....I said give him 2.5 to 2.75. There is a big difference.

Average means that there were just as many 2 second drop backs as there were 3 seconds. Might this factor into the inconsistent play? How does a qb get into a comfortable rhythm from one play to the next when he doesn't know how much time he has?

I watched the majority of every game. There was not a single time that I can remember saying "damn, Goff had all day to throw but fucked that up." Dude NEVER had all day to throw.

The Rams still made it to the divisional round of the playoffs...still won 11 games this year....Goff still had what would be historically considered a good season...not great or amazing....but not bad statistically either.

By all means, replace him. Be careful what you wish for though because there are only maybe 5 qbs in the world that would perform better than he did in the same situation.

Oh, and if McVay calls the Oline out then he is effectively blaming himself for everything. He is admitting that his decision to bolster the D over protecting the teams biggest investment was the wrong choice. Has McVay had a good track record of taking ownership? Yes he has...not on this one though.

I'm not on a high horse....

Notice how I said that he had a great track record, just not on this one?

I suppose I should choose my words more carefully.

I meant this time specifically.

Just because we have an elite head coach does not mean that he is literally a perfect person.

I have acknowledged that Goff needs to play better.

What I cannot stand is the people who want to bang the gavel as if Peyton Manning himself would have won a SB this year.

Newsflash: its a team sport.

I will defend Goff until he is cut or traded or let go in free agency.

The obvious answer is to get him a center who isn't an absolute liability.

Question: what is the worst kind of pressure?

It wouldn't happen to be interior would it? One could argue blindside due to strip sack, but it takes longer to develop.

 

[PhillyRam]

No I don't read all the threads. Especially on game day. Sorry. But, I'm surprised anyone would take to heart anything said immediately after or during what appears to be a loss when emotions are running so freaking high.

But we are doing that woth what McVay said within 24 hours of the sao ending.

And yes what was said above is correct. For example any mention of Goff's W/L record over the last four yrs is immediately dismissed as it being all about McVay....like Goff is just along for the ride. However, when they lose he gets most of the blame.

 

[SWAdude]

Certainly a passionate subject about ones QB that had a season like JG just had.

I find it interesting after this last signing we now have a starting pocket QB, along with now three much more mobile QBs.

Just an observation that gives one thought. Might mean nothing.

 

[NJRamsFan]

Exactly. In post #1002 I pointed out that maybe I had missed those posts, but I had yet to see anyone come close to the every loss is Goff's fault and every win is achieved without any help from Goff viewpoint. I hadn't seen it so, yes, I stated that it SEEMS to be an imaginary point made over and over again. Not that is hasn't happened, but that it SEEMED that way to me.

That said, it would also seem that in order for anyone to come to that conclusion, one would have to have read every post made by said party or parties each week in every singe Vent or GDT thread to be sure. I really hope that's not the case. All that said, I still struggle to understand why anyone would take such comments to heart in either of those type of threads when emotions are running so high during the game and immediately thereafter. And again, posters who probably haven't even participated in those threads feel the wrath.

Is it possible that someone has an opposite agenda? Sure. Goff may have kicked his/her dog, stolen his/her girl or something etc. But, I just find it hard to believe that a Rams fan, and not a troll, would blindly bash Goff at all costs anything close to the way he has been defended by some.

Alright bro!

 

[FrantikRam]

But we are doing that woth what McVay said within 24 hours of the sao ending.

And yes what was said above is correct. For example any mention of Goff's W/L record over the last four yrs is immediately dismissed as it being all about McVay....like Goff is just along for the ride. However, when they lose he gets most of the blame.

I'm really sick of this comment. He gets most of the blame when he plays poorly.

Did a single fan blame him for the Buffalo loss? No.

The irony in this is that people don't want Goff criticized when the Rams win. Even though that's a perfectly normal thing to do - just because the Rams won, I'm sure McVay still shows missed plays on both sides.

A quick look at the other games shows why he would be blamed:

First Niners game - he played terribly - as did Kupp and the defense for one half. All three were "blamed"

Dolphins game - four turnovers leading to 21 Miami points - and many here blamed McVay

Second Niners game - three turnovers, including a pick 6 - two of the turnovers were under no pressure

Jets game - horrible INT that led to a FG - however the Rams also had a punt blocked, and people acknowledged the defense did not play well - all three were blamed

Seahawks - horrible INT that changed the course of the game


And many people blamed the defense in the second Niners and Seahawks games too.

Goff is often criticized with other entities - people just get "triggered" by Goff being critiqued and ignore the other critiques.

It's pretty clear that Goff was "to blame" for most of the Rams losses though, just based on the turnovers

 

[KayJay]

Jared Goff-Sean McVay relationship on the rocks? Who'll replace Philip Rivers on Colts?

Given his personal investment in Goff's development, I would expect McVay to exhibit more patience and consideration with his starting quarterback. Sure, he can express his disappointment in his QB1's play based on the turnovers (17) and inconsistency throughout a campaign in which Goff passed for 3,962 yards with 20 touchdowns and a 90.0 passer rating. But McVay should also acknowledge his role in the offense's sputtering, with defensive coordinators catching up with his scheme and the Rams' B-level pass catchers and offensive line unable to consistently win against top defenses.

I'm surprised McVay has decided to play the silent blame game and seemingly pin all of the offensive woes on his quarterback. Honestly, the Rams coach should take a long, hard look in the mirror to determine whether the person with the joystick also deserves some criticism. Goff possesses a whopping dead-cap hit of $65.5 million if he's jettisoned this coming offseason, so the Rams need to find a way to get their head coach and quarterback on the same page.

I trust in my head coach, but I don't subscribe to the thought that a head coach is infallible. I don't die at the hill that is Jared Goff. But I'm also going to acknowledge that this offense isn't even close to what it was when he first got here. And considering that he fell in love with the Ravens offense that also took a nose dive is concerning.

Remember, Sean is young and still learning himself. Like Rich Eisen said, go look at the ocean; get it out of your system, and lets make improvements and run this back. Unless its Watson coming through that door, nobody is coming to save us. We dug this hole, we need to climb out of it. And judging by how we just won a playoff game, we aren't nearly as far from climbing out as we think.

 

[jrry32]

Here's the thing jrry... I'm not even hung up on the fantasy side, the scoring and all that. I'm hung up on the basics.

I review every game quite thoroughly. And as a disclaimer I am well aware that I'm no NFL head coach or high end scout. But I can see his head and what he's looking at. I can see which plays he gets through his reads. I can see which plays he hangs up on guys. I can see him passing over wide open options (Goff does that a lot when it's guys he doesn't trust like Everett, Reynolds and Jefferson). And I can see him missing or overlooking opportunity. And so on.

Game to game I have a good reference for Jared and there are clear and obvious weaknesses he has. He has regressed badly on his recognition of protections and the when it happens is fucking strange too. To have a good game vs Tampa for example then play like he did vs some of the other defenses for example, it's almost like he didn't study for some games. That's what I'd think if I didn't hold him as a person in such high regard. And that inconsistency is what I care about not whether he gets to cap a drive with a TD pass.

Same goes for his vision. As soon as the pressure starts he begins to break down. And like the above he had good games like Tampa.

IMO those are the things driving McVay batshit. McVay mentioned the turnovers which was appropriate. But the underlying issues that lead to the turnovers... That's what I'm talking about. From what I have seen McVay has a lot of reason to be pissed off at his QB. Because this is a contending team.

I don't disagree. But I think it's just the shit that happens with young pocket passers. Most of the ones who have shown what Goff has to this point in his career outgrew it.

I am probably the biggest Sean McVay critic on this board and agree that his red zone play calls not only hurt Goff's numbers, but were just plain poor in general.

Having said that, to play devil's advocate, I think a huge reason for the Rams running so much in the red zone was that many weeks McVay simply had no confidence in Jared Goff. Heck, I don't think the team had confidence in Goff either many weeks. In fact, it often looked like Goff didn't even have confidence in himself. It was a very up and down year for #16. And the downs were extremely down. Many weeks, the football being in Goff's hands in the red zone would be the last place I'd have wanted it.

And I like Goff a lot more than most.

I can see that argument. Thing is that it has been a consistent trend for him since 2017. Each year, the passing TD share has dropped, even from 2017 to 2018. But Goff hasn't been particularly inefficient or mistake prone in the redzone. In four years with McVay, he has 100 TDs to 3 Ints inside the redzone.

 

[jrry32]

I'm really sick of this comment. He gets most of the blame when he plays poorly.

Did a single fan blame him for the Buffalo loss? No.

The irony in this is that people don't want Goff criticized when the Rams win. Even though that's a perfectly normal thing to do - just because the Rams won, I'm sure McVay still shows missed plays on both sides.

A quick look at the other games shows why he would be blamed:

First Niners game - he played terribly - as did Kupp and the defense for one half. All three were "blamed"

Dolphins game - four turnovers leading to 21 Miami points - and many here blamed McVay

Second Niners game - three turnovers, including a pick 6 - two of the turnovers were under no pressure

Jets game - horrible INT that led to a FG - however the Rams also had a punt blocked, and people acknowledged the defense did not play well - all three were blamed

Seahawks - horrible INT that changed the course of the game


And many people blamed the defense in the second Niners and Seahawks games too.

Goff is often criticized with other entities - people just get "triggered" by Goff being critiqued and ignore the other critiques.

It's pretty clear that Goff was "to blame" for most of the Rams losses though, just based on the turnovers

People get annoyed because while we realize that Goff was the biggest problem in almost all our losses, we see people minimize his performance/role in wins. The fact of the matter is that even excepting this year where the defense was dominant, Goff led us to 33 wins and top 10 offenses in each of the three previous years. I cannot think of another QB who had that level of success, especially as young as Goff was, who got so little credit for it.

 

[Memphis Ram]

But we are doing that woth what McVay said within 24 hours of the sao ending.

And yes what was said above is correct. For example any mention of Goff's W/L record over the last four yrs is immediately dismissed as it being all about McVay....like Goff is just along for the ride. However, when they lose he gets most of the blame.

I'm not. I listened to McVay's comments regarding the position even prior to the 24 hours of the sad ending. Before that Cardinals game and even after the Seahawks game. Listen to how he described and showed excitement for Wolford's skill set. Notice how Goff was healthy enough to be active, but Wolford started that playoff game.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the last interview was just a cumulation. IMO, it really seems apparent to me that the guy wants more of a playmaker at the position. Someone who is better at making off structure plays which is not Goff's strong suit.

Sorry, but I disregard any mention of any QBs so-called win/loss record. Don't believe in it. Never made any sense to me in a team sport.

 

[payote75]

Here's the thing jrry... I'm not even hung up on the fantasy side, the scoring and all that. I'm hung up on the basics.

I review every game quite thoroughly. And as a disclaimer I am well aware that I'm no NFL head coach or high end scout. But I can see his head and what he's looking at. I can see which plays he gets through his reads. I can see which plays he hangs up on guys. I can see him passing over wide open options (Goff does that a lot when it's guys he doesn't trust like Everett, Reynolds and Jefferson). And I can see him missing or overlooking opportunity. And so on.

Game to game I have a good reference for Jared and there are clear and obvious weaknesses he has. He has regressed badly on his recognition of protections and the when it happens is fucking strange too. To have a good game vs Tampa for example then play like he did vs some of the other defenses for example, it's almost like he didn't study for some games. That's what I'd think if I didn't hold him as a person in such high regard. And that inconsistency is what I care about not whether he gets to cap a drive with a TD pass.

Same goes for his vision. As soon as the pressure starts he begins to break down. And like the above he had good games like Tampa.

IMO those are the things driving McVay batshit. McVay mentioned the turnovers which was appropriate. But the underlying issues that lead to the turnovers... That's what I'm talking about. From what I have seen McVay has a lot of reason to be pissed off at his QB. Because this is a contending team.

Excellent post. Spot on! Agree 1000% and it's not to disparage Goff again goff defenders need to know we all want the same thing just pointing out some obvious flaws that are going backwards instead of forward.

 

[FrantikRam]

People get annoyed because while we realize that Goff was the biggest problem in almost all our losses, we see people minimize his performance/role in wins. The fact of the matter is that even excepting this year where the defense was dominant, Goff led us to 33 wins and top 10 offenses in each of the three previous years. I cannot think of another QB who had that level of success, especially as young as Goff was, who got so little credit for it.

It's probably natural but people are blurring the lines and assuming that someone who criticizes him is also someone who doesn't give him credit, and/or taking out their frustration with the media. It's mostly them that hasn't given Goff credit.

Before this year I think most Rams fans gave him a lot of credit for the Rams winning 33 games in the past three seasons, all with top 10 offenses as you say. He was obviously a big part of that.

Where people probably differ are when they started to question Goff. For me it was the Super Bowl, so then some of his worse games last year bugged me, and after this year it's really a WTF.

For you it sounds like it was just this year - so if you just take us as examples, it's pretty clear to see how one part of the fanbase can be - whatever point I'm at with him (wanting to upgrade if possible I suppose is how I would put it) - and the other part wants to give him more time.

 

[Merlin]

Aside from the play on the field and all that which we have indeed discussed a bajillion times...

He and McVay may just be too different. To me they're sort of on the opposite ends of the spectrum where Goff is laid back and Cali cool and McVay is a burning flame of football passion. McVay's a guy who is gonna be pissed if you beat him at checkers.

So maybe he just wants a guy he has to pull back the reigns on. Who knows. Either way we should have an idea in not too long wtf is going on when we see their moves. Unfortunately we'll have to read between the lines because even if there's a break it'll be all rainbows and unicorns just like they have done for all players they move.

Want you guys to know that I appreciate all your feedback and comments even when they suck ass. That stuff keeps things real.

 

[Allen2McVay]

McVay is a burning flame of football passion.

We are not in agreement on everything these days but it’s quotes like this that draw me to your posts.

 

[Ramit]

Aside from the play on the field and all that which we have indeed discussed a bajillion times...

He and McVay may just be too different. To me they're sort of on the opposite ends of the spectrum where Goff is laid back and Cali cool and McVay is a burning flame of football passion. McVay's a guy who is gonna be pissed if you beat him at checkers.

So maybe he just wants a guy he has to pull back the reigns on. Who knows. Either way we should have an idea in not too long wtf is going on when we see their moves. Unfortunately we'll have to read between the lines because even if there's a break it'll be all rainbows and unicorns just like they have done for all players they move.

Want you guys to know that I appreciate all your feedback and comments even when they suck ass. That stuff keeps things real.

I get just as much as I give. Hopefully my thoughts are intelligent enough. I have spent about 4 years reading guys like you on this board...enough time to form a respect for your thoughts and knowledge of the game. Hopefully someday that might be truly mutual rather than a formality based upon proper etiquette.

 

[Merlin]

I get just as much as I give. Hopefully my thoughts are intelligent enough. I have spent about 4 years reading guys like you on this board...enough time to form a respect for your thoughts and knowledge of the game. Hopefully someday that might be truly mutual rather than a formality based upon proper etiquette.

I was just kidding around there. I think you've made some fine points my man cheers.

This board as a whole kicks ass. Ton of knowledgeable fans of which you are one.

 

[ottoman89]

Just watched Goff highlights from the MIN game 2 years ago, and man.. he used to throw an absolute beautiful deep ball and was looking safeties off.

And no, not every play did he have great protection. Just his body language, and demeanor seem so different.

That Goff deserved to be paid.

 

[Tano]

Blythe got worked over every time we faced a top DL who could bullrush him. Boom started off well in place of Whit but ended up struggling. Outside of those two elements the Rams were a very good OL. This is why you see that split in opinion on our OL.


Generally the game you get eliminated comes with a laundry list of bad shit from pressures on your QB to your run game being stuffed to your defense being run on and so forth and so on.

If the Rams had played better on defense we probably win that game. If the OL had played better up front we probably win that game. But you can apply that to the QB too. This is a team game. What McVay has to do now is determine whether Goff gives the Rams the best chance to win of his options.

What has he done since that game? Added another scrappy mobile QB to the depth chart. Not a big move but I am starting to discern a trend in what he's looking for at the very least from his backups which is aggressive run tendencies to pick up first downs. In a way that makes sense for a backup too btw. But there's a lot of confusion for all of us on this and re: what McVay thinks about the starter and IMO we're all just trying to get a handle on that.

I wouldn't mind putting in a run oriented QB from time to time in the game.

Look at the wildcat they implemented in the GB game.

Only one worked but I would make it a true run/pass option.

Akers was definitely run only option when he was the wildcat.

 

[Tano]

The ball was a throw away, and Verrett made an unreal catch. Reynolds could have broken it up but half assed it. There wasnt a play there

Again I disagree. I think Goff tried to complete it since it was 4th and 2. It was just a terrible throw from what I saw. Reynolds was open and would have caught it if it was a yard to the right.

However, I do agree that Verrett made an unreal play to catch the ball. He should not have been in that spot.

I have a feeling neither one of us is going to budge on this so I will agree that you have a point but I believe my point is right so....

Agree to disagree