The Goff-season Thread

[Ramit]

Again the OL was not as bad as many around here are making it out to be. People have forgotten the 2019 OL. But blaming the OL and McVay are just more convenient for some, even though McVay HIMSELF was the one calling out Goff to the media. McVay didnt call out the OL. He called out his QB.



I was just letting you know Goff had 2.5sec per drop-back last year so you might need to work on a new theory. Lack of a deep threat and new girlfriend seem to be popular ones lately.

Ok, so do you know what average means? I'm going to assume that you do. Heres the thing...I didn't say give him an average of 2.5 to 2.75....I said give him 2.5 to 2.75. There is a big difference.

Average means that there were just as many 2 second drop backs as there were 3 seconds. Might this factor into the inconsistent play? How does a qb get into a comfortable rhythm from one play to the next when he doesn't know how much time he has?

I watched the majority of every game. There was not a single time that I can remember saying "damn, Goff had all day to throw but fucked that up." Dude NEVER had all day to throw.

The Rams still made it to the divisional round of the playoffs...still won 11 games this year....Goff still had what would be historically considered a good season...not great or amazing....but not bad statistically either.

By all means, replace him. Be careful what you wish for though because there are only maybe 5 qbs in the world that would perform better than he did in the same situation.

Oh, and if McVay calls the Oline out then he is effectively blaming himself for everything. He is admitting that his decision to bolster the D over protecting the teams biggest investment was the wrong choice. Has McVay had a good track record of taking ownership? Yes he has...not on this one though.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Again with this shit. You’re mad people are being attacked or that you got attacked. But what are you doing while accusing people who support Goff of being delusional/lying/whatever you want to call it. ?? And please save me the “I never called anyone delusional” bit. When you say that people are referencing things that don’t exist they’re either lying or delusional.

Classic example of my last post. What is an admission that I haven't seen something then? Which is what I stated early on.

Perhaps we'd be better off if the people referencing the ridiculous statements are quoted and responded to while others making comments on the subject don't feel the wrath of something that haven't stated or even thought.

 

[NJRamsFan]

Classic example of my last post. What is an admission that I haven't seen something then? Which is what I stated early on.

Perhaps we'd be better off if the people referencing the ridiculous statements are quoted and responded to while others making comments on the subject don't feel the wrath of something that haven't stated or even thought.

You cant just "admit" that you may have not seen something and than proceed as if the thing you may have missed doesn't exist. The "admission" is covering your tracks from backlash while the rest of your post operates under the premise that your "admission" isn't actually real. If you are stating that these posts might exist, why do you call people out that state things saying they do exist?

 

[BuffaloRam]

Can we get a lock on this thread?

 

[NJRamsFan]

Its as if that person must defend Goff against all possible threats foreign or domestic or something in how bias some of the interpretation/responses have been.

You feel this way. And I feel there are certain posters on here who operate as if their only mission is to trash Goff and live for the I told ya so. There are certain posters who post 5 times in a row in a game day thread when Goff throws an INT but literally are silent when he throws a touchdown. These things are happening dude. Either that or I'm literally losing my mind. Its hard to tell these days. Yes people have taken sides and act as if they must defend their side at all costs but that is the state of the world right now, look at politics or any other form of debate.

I will admit there are people who defend Goff at all costs, for a while I was one of them. Sometimes going against conventional wisdom. My question is: Do you really think its one sided? And that its not possible there are people out there with the opposite agenda?

And yes I understand you did say "maybe I missed the posts" (or something to that effect I dont feel like going back to get the exact wording...you get my meaning. But than right after you said "Seems to be this imaginary point over and over again".

 

[matt30]

I use to have much more respect for PFF. They've obviously gone down hill since their popularity has risen for whatever the reason.

According to PFF our oline this year was better then the 2017/2018 lines. Yeah, I think not. They also claim Williams is better them Ramsey. Nothing about PFF is pragmatic.

It just has to do more with their methodology. If a lineman holds his block for the time required to execute the play, he's going to get +3 on the rating sheet. Since we rarely ran long developing plays (in contrast to even last year) that's less opportunities for a negative grade. Just look at how many times we ran screen on third and long while other teams are trying to make something happen downfield.

It's not a bad system, you just need to know the limitations.

 

[Angry Ram]

Just popped in to say congratulations on getting over halfway to #questfor100round2

Carry on.

 

[Merlin]

Has McVay had a good track record of taking ownership? Yes he has...not on this one though.

Last season Goff put up an 86 passer rating (20th in the league) behind a poor OL and McVay went out of his way to protect his QB. Not once all season did he do anything other than take full credit for all the struggles.

This season the line improved but the passer rating came in at 89 (22nd in the league) and some of those outings by Goff boy howdy. McVay once again took blame on just about every occasion, with his one comment about Goff that could be construed to be negative being that his QB has to take better care of the football.

We have a head coach who just took his team to the Divisional round with a 22nd ranked QB situation. And who to date has not once made negative remarks about his QB other than him needing to fix the turnovers. This is a coach who took over a team that had not been to the playoffs in 12 years prior to his hiring. Since his hiring they have made the playoffs 3 times to include a Super Bowl and Divisional round appearance, and all four seasons he finished with a winning record.

So IMO his track record of ownership is just fine on this. He doesn't have to explain shit. He's an elite Head Coach and if he decides his QB is holding him back there's a good chance he's right. And btw when I personally see film where Goff is doing shit that I can't believe he's doing and playing what I consider to be uninspired ball on top of the above... Yeah. Let's just say I think you need to get off your high horse with McVay.

 

[payote75]

Honestly I just think that most people concerned about Goff just voice there concerns and as fans of the rams we all seek upgrades where we can. It's not about hating on Goff he is a great kid and a very good quarterback but is not living up to his contract right now. We can go back and forth on the reasons but like I said this will never come to an end til the nervous jumpers are proven wrong and can be man or woman enough to come back on here and say man I'm glad we stuck with the kid. However the Goff defenders get to sensitive at times not all some and that's not fair. There is a lopsidedness to this debate because the people with concerns want to be right there with the defenders but don't see what the defenders see right now. Again Ramily in fighting but inevitably we want to be on your side it's harder to be a jumper than the driver. I've said a thousand times I want the kid to hoist trophies and be the next Joe Montana but I am truly concerned and I hate feeling that way. So in the end let the chips fall where they may.
If anyone wants to see goff fail just to prove there point that's effed up and not a true rams fan in my opinion. I've gone as far as saying that even if he were to leave I want the kid to succeed obviously not against us but I won't root against him.

 

[jrry32]

Well sure, I believe Stafford is a better QB than Goff the same way you think Trevor Lawrence is the best QB prospect in the draft.

Of course I could be wrong, and of course I don't think that I am or I wouldn't have posted the opinion. It's all guesswork, as you say. McVay and Snead wouldn't be very good at their jobs if they weren't asking themselves these questions right now.

Okay, but even in believing that Trevor Lawrence is the best QB prospect in the Draft, I don't believe that he's guaranteed to be the best QB in the Draft. In making my evaluation, I am recognizing that when evaluating a range of scenarios, Trevor is the best bet to be a top 10 QB. Zach Wilson, Justin Fields, and Trey Lance, for example, all have scenarios where they could be better QBs. It's like Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson. Luck went #1 because he was a safe bet to be a top 10 QB. Yet, Wilson went in the third and became a better QB. Does that make Wilson a better QB prospect? I'd say no. He simply maximized his potential in the NFL.

My issue with your analysis is that it assumes a best case scenario with Stafford. You assume he fits seamlessly into this system. You assume that he stays healthy. And you assume that he doesn't have stinkers like Goff did. I can say that Stafford played better this year than Goff. But there's no guarantee we end up in an appreciably different situation. Even if we go 11-5 or 12-4, we don't end up with a bye. If we end up with the same injuries, I think we lose to the Saints. So we don't go any further.

But there are also some concerning things in Stafford's splits. First, Goff played his best ball this year in the 4th quarter of games. Stafford played his worst ball in the 4th quarter of games. Second, Stafford was far more effective out of the shotgun than he was under center. Third, Goff was a significantly more efficient passer in the redzone. Fourth, Stafford was a less efficient third down passer than Goff.

Obviously, none of us can say what Stafford would have been in our scheme this year with any sort of certainty. But I don't know that the scheme fit is as seamless as you believe. I think one particularly big issue would be the lack of explosive plays from our WRs. Maybe they have more with Stafford. But he would be more reliant on those sorts of plays with Goff being the more efficient player in the redzone. If they didn't manifest themselves, that could potentially lead to our offense scoring less points.

To put it simply, we can all make guesses. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not off base in calling it guesswork. I'm not as impressed by Stafford as you are. I think at their respective bests, Goff is the better QB. I think Stafford was a better QB this year, but there are fair questions as to how his game would translate to our scheme and talent. Ultimately, I think even this year, you're talking about a jump from a QB ranked around #20 and a QB ranked around #14. How much does that move the needle? I don't think it moves it nearly enough to declare with confidence that we'd have gone further in the playoffs or made the Super Bowl.

 

[jrry32]

Last season Goff put up an 86 passer rating (20th in the league) behind a poor OL and McVay went out of his way to protect his QB. Not once all season did he do anything other than take full credit for all the struggles.

Look, I don't want to get into whether or not McVay has taken sufficient ownership. I have no issue with him calling out Goff. But I want to set the record straight. McVay's situational play-calling fucked Goff over last year, statistically speaking. Here's an analysis I did in the Stafford thread about how situational play-calling affects QB numbers:

I want to make one final point about Matt Stafford. People have a nasty tendency to value QBs based on their box scores. Sean McVay likes to run the ball near the endzone, and that drives Goff's TD numbers down. That has not been true with Stafford in Detroit. Let me demonstrate:
Detroit's Offense
2015: 33 passing TDs + 7 rushing TDs (82.5% passing TD share)
2016: 24 passing TDs + 9 rushing TDs (72.7% passing TD share)
2017: 29 passing TDs + 10 rushing TDs (74.4% passing TD share)
2018: 22 passing TDs + 11 rushing TDs (66.7% passing TD share)
2019: 28 passing TDs + 7 rushing TDs (80% passing TD share on the season and 90.5% in the 8 games Stafford played)
2020: 27 passing TDs + 17 rushing TDs (61.4% passing TD share)

Rams' Offense
2017: 28 passing TDs + 17 rushing TDs (62.2% passing TD share)
2018: 32 passing TDs + 23 rushing TDs (58.2% passing TD share)
2019: 22 passing TDs + 20 rushing TDs (52.4% passing TD share)
2020: 20 passing TDs + 19 rushing TDs (51.3% passing TD share)

I'll address two points I expect to come up. First, I used the 2015 to 2020 time period for Stafford because 2015 is when he entered his prime and made his jump as a QB. Second, I expect somebody to argue that Stafford's lack of running game and our strong running game are the causes of this. However, our running game was one of the NFL's worst in 2019, yet our passing TD share was still way down.

What's my point here? Stafford's numbers have benefited in a major way from coaching that liked to throw near the endzone. Goff, on the other hand, has had his numbers driven down by McVay's affinity towards running the ball near the endzone. Now, I expect somebody will point out that McVay is a better offensive mind than the ones Stafford has had. I think that's true. But my point here is that when it comes to statistics, McVay's style has both advantages and disadvantages for Goff.

For example, Goff threw 22 TDs in 2019 with a bad running game. If we apply Stafford's passing TD shares to Goff by year based on the Rams' 2019 season, here's how many passing TDs Goff would have thrown:
2015: 35 passing TDs
2016: 31 passing TDs
2017: 31 passing TDs
2018: 28 passing TDs
2019: 34 passing TDs
2020: 26 passing TDs

Basically, I'm far from sold that Stafford is an upgrade on Goff. And Goff still has the potential to make a jump as he enters his prime years.

Simply put, Goff's numbers should have been a lot better than they were based on our offensive success and the craptastic running game. But McVay's preference towards running the ball near the endzone deflated Goff's statistical production.

 

[Ramit]

Last season Goff put up an 86 passer rating (20th in the league) behind a poor OL and McVay went out of his way to protect his QB. Not once all season did he do anything other than take full credit for all the struggles.

This season the line improved but the passer rating came in at 89 (22nd in the league) and some of those outings by Goff boy howdy. McVay once again took blame on just about every occasion, with his one comment about Goff that could be construed to be negative being that his QB has to take better care of the football.

We have a head coach who just took his team to the Divisional round with a 22nd ranked QB situation. And who to date has not once made negative remarks about his QB other than him needing to fix the turnovers. This is a coach who took over a team that had not been to the playoffs in 12 years prior to his hiring. Since his hiring they have made the playoffs 3 times to include a Super Bowl and Divisional round appearance, and all four seasons he finished with a winning record.

So IMO his track record of ownership is just fine on this. He doesn't have to explain shit. He's an elite Head Coach and if he decides his QB is holding him back there's a good chance he's right. And btw when I personally see film where Goff is doing shit that I can't believe he's doing and playing what I consider to be uninspired ball on top of the above... Yeah. Let's just say I think you need to get off your high horse with McVay.

I'm not on a high horse....

Notice how I said that he had a great track record, just not on this one?

I suppose I should choose my words more carefully.

I meant this time specifically.

Just because we have an elite head coach does not mean that he is literally a perfect person.

I have acknowledged that Goff needs to play better.

What I cannot stand is the people who want to bang the gavel as if Peyton Manning himself would have won a SB this year.

Newsflash: its a team sport.

I will defend Goff until he is cut or traded or let go in free agency.

The obvious answer is to get him a center who isn't an absolute liability.

Question: what is the worst kind of pressure?

It wouldn't happen to be interior would it? One could argue blindside due to strip sack, but it takes longer to develop.

 

[Memphis Ram]

You feel this way. And I feel there are certain posters on here who operate as if their only mission is to trash Goff and live for the I told ya so. There are certain posters who post 5 times in a row in a game day thread when Goff throws an INT but literally are silent when he throws a touchdown. These things are happening dude. Either that or I'm literally losing my mind. Its hard to tell these days. Yes people have taken sides and act as if they must defend their side at all costs but that is the state of the world right now, look at politics or any other form of debate.

I will admit there are people who defend Goff at all costs, for a while I was one of them. Sometimes going against conventional wisdom. My question is: Do you really think its one sided? And that its not possible there are people out there with the opposite agenda?

And yes I understand you did say "maybe I missed the posts" (or something to that effect I dont feel like going back to get the exact wording...you get my meaning. But than right after you said "Seems to be this imaginary point over and over again".

Exactly. In post #1002 I pointed out that maybe I had missed those posts, but I had yet to see anyone come close to the every loss is Goff's fault and every win is achieved without any help from Goff viewpoint. I hadn't seen it so, yes, I stated that it SEEMS to be an imaginary point made over and over again. Not that is hasn't happened, but that it SEEMED that way to me.

That said, it would also seem that in order for anyone to come to that conclusion, one would have to have read every post made by said party or parties each week in every singe Vent or GDT thread to be sure. I really hope that's not the case. All that said, I still struggle to understand why anyone would take such comments to heart in either of those type of threads when emotions are running so high during the game and immediately thereafter. And again, posters who probably haven't even participated in those threads feel the wrath.

Is it possible that someone has an opposite agenda? Sure. Goff may have kicked his/her dog, stolen his/her girl or something etc. But, I just find it hard to believe that a Rams fan, and not a troll, would blindly bash Goff at all costs anything close to the way he has been defended by some.

 

[Merlin]

Look, I don't want to get into whether or not McVay has taken sufficient ownership. I have no issue with him calling out Goff. But I want to set the record straight. McVay's situational play-calling fucked Goff over last year, statistically speaking. Here's an analysis I did in the Stafford thread about how situational play-calling affects QB numbers:

Here's the thing jrry... I'm not even hung up on the fantasy side, the scoring and all that. I'm hung up on the basics.

I review every game quite thoroughly. And as a disclaimer I am well aware that I'm no NFL head coach or high end scout. But I can see his head and what he's looking at. I can see which plays he gets through his reads. I can see which plays he hangs up on guys. I can see him passing over wide open options (Goff does that a lot when it's guys he doesn't trust like Everett, Reynolds and Jefferson). And I can see him missing or overlooking opportunity. And so on.

Game to game I have a good reference for Jared and there are clear and obvious weaknesses he has. He has regressed badly on his recognition of protections and the when it happens is fucking strange too. To have a good game vs Tampa for example then play like he did vs some of the other defenses for example, it's almost like he didn't study for some games. That's what I'd think if I didn't hold him as a person in such high regard. And that inconsistency is what I care about not whether he gets to cap a drive with a TD pass.

Same goes for his vision. As soon as the pressure starts he begins to break down. And like the above he had good games like Tampa.

IMO those are the things driving McVay batshit. McVay mentioned the turnovers which was appropriate. But the underlying issues that lead to the turnovers... That's what I'm talking about. From what I have seen McVay has a lot of reason to be pissed off at his QB. Because this is a contending team.

 

[OntarioRam]

Look, I don't want to get into whether or not McVay has taken sufficient ownership. I have no issue with him calling out Goff. But I want to set the record straight. McVay's situational play-calling fucked Goff over last year, statistically speaking. Here's an analysis I did in the Stafford thread about how situational play-calling affects QB numbers:


Simply put, Goff's numbers should have been a lot better than they were based on our offensive success and the craptastic running game. But McVay's preference towards running the ball near the endzone deflated Goff's statistical production.

I am probably the biggest Sean McVay critic on this board and agree that his red zone play calls not only hurt Goff's numbers, but were just plain poor in general.

Having said that, to play devil's advocate, I think a huge reason for the Rams running so much in the red zone was that many weeks McVay simply had no confidence in Jared Goff. Heck, I don't think the team had confidence in Goff either many weeks. In fact, it often looked like Goff didn't even have confidence in himself. It was a very up and down year for #16. And the downs were extremely down. Many weeks, the football being in Goff's hands in the red zone would be the last place I'd have wanted it.

And I like Goff a lot more than most.

 

[VegasRam]

Can we get a lock on this thread?

Hell no!

This is fun, plus it's the offseason.
lighten up Francis!

PS - Love your avatar.

 

[-X-]

 

[VegasRam]

The obvious answer is to get him a center who isn't an absolute liability.

Disagree - he just needs a wig, a mole and an alias.

 

[Ramit]

Here's the thing jrry... I'm not even hung up on the fantasy side, the scoring and all that. I'm hung up on the basics.

I review every game quite thoroughly. And as a disclaimer I am well aware that I'm no NFL head coach or high end scout. But I can see his head and what he's looking at. I can see which plays he gets through his reads. I can see which plays he hangs up on guys. I can see him passing over wide open options (Goff does that a lot when it's guys he doesn't trust like Everett, Reynolds and Jefferson). And I can see him missing or overlooking opportunity. And so on.

Game to game I have a good reference for Jared and there are clear and obvious weaknesses he has. He has regressed badly on his recognition of protections and the when it happens is fucking strange too. To have a good game vs Tampa for example then play like he did vs some of the other defenses for example, it's almost like he didn't study for some games. That's what I'd think if I didn't hold him as a person in such high regard. And that inconsistency is what I care about not whether he gets to cap a drive with a TD pass.

Same goes for his vision. As soon as the pressure starts he begins to break down. And like the above he had good games like Tampa.

IMO those are the things driving McVay batshit. McVay mentioned the turnovers which was appropriate. But the underlying issues that lead to the turnovers... That's what I'm talking about. From what I have seen McVay has a lot of reason to be pissed off at his QB. Because this is a contending team.

I agree with you, for the most part. I would like to offer a reasonable explanation though. Mind you, this isn't me saying that none of it is on Goff.

A lot of bad/borderline teams (Miami, Jets ect.) Circle the Rams on their schedule and make that their Superbowl. They save their schematic surprises for that game. Notice how pissed McVay was after the Miami game but said he had to do a better job preparing?

This may explain (not excuse) the things you speak about such as protection recognition.

Goff must be better at improvising when he sees things that are unexpected; however, even the all time greats have issues when teams do things that were never put on film.

Philly Philly, anyone?

 

[thirteen28]

I agree with you, for the most part. I would like to offer a reasonable explanation though. Mind you, this isn't me saying that none of it is on Goff.

A lot of bad/borderline teams (Miami, Jets ect.) Circle the Rams on their schedule and make that their Superbowl. They save their schematic surprises for that game. Notice how pissed McVay was after the Miami game but said he had to do a better job preparing?

This may explain (not excuse) the things you speak about such as protection recognition.

Goff must be better at improvising when he sees things that are unexpected; however, even the all time greats have issues when teams do things that were never put on film.

Philly Philly, anyone?

I think those are good points, but I will add one more to them: plain old confidence.

If the line play is inconsistent (as it certainly was with Blythe at minimum) over a number of games, that's going to get into the QB's head. Ditto when the playcalling leaves something to be desired, as it often times did. When these things manifest themselves over a number of games in a season, habits start to form and confidence is affected such that it becomes more difficult to perform even when conditions are right, as one is no longer as sure of themselves and isn't as sure about what they are seeing. I'm sure most of you reading this have been through something similar in your life.

I honestly don't see how anyone could have confidence in Blythe knowing what we've seen. I don't know what Goff thinks of the playcalling, but many of us here do not have the same confidence in McVay's playcalling as we did during his first two years, and that's justifiable, even moreso this year now that the Gurley question was answered once and for all.