The Goff-season Thread

[NJRamsFan]

The thing about a conversation is that you can leave it whenever you like though. I don't see why people have to enter a thread to complain about other people conversing ?

The thing about a post is you can ignore it whenever you like though. I don’t see why people have to respond to a post and complain about the way that poster is complaining as if their complaining is any different?

 

[Ellard80]

The Quarterback always gets more credit or more blame than they often deserve.

It comes with the territory.

But its also a fallacy that keeps getting repeated that Goff "singularly" is to blame for everything.

That's not true... yeah he gets "talked about the most" because he plays the flash position that has the ball and everyone sees.

But 99% of everyone knows its not only the QB that matters.


QB's just get the focus from everyone all the time- no matter where you go.. at almost all levels of football.

 

[Ellard80]

But probably more of this to come...

Because I don't see how Goff won't be the QB next year.

 

[Ram_Rally]

The thing about a post is you can ignore it whenever you like though. I don’t see why people have to respond to a post and complain about the way that poster is complaining as if their complaining is any different?

I didn't complain. Consider me genuinely interested. What's the goal behind entering a Goff megathread to ridicule people for talking about Goff.

 

[TexasRam]

A few thoughts here regarding some of the last pages of conversation...

Because it’a not a complete day without a Goff post or two right?

First, regarding Watson and if some of us would support him if he was 4-12 with us. It is entirely possible I have some bias and would support a QB based on a stubborn commitment to saying I liked him from the beginning. Like the Goff vs Wentz thing where someone puts blinders on because they said they liked Goff over Wentz and don’t want to be wrong. But Honestly, I personally want the Rams to Win a Super Bowl over anything. My judgement of Goff is 100% based on what I see on film. I have always judged a QB within the context of his situation and supporting cast. Stats for a QB are media fodder. They often are completely irrelevant to how a QB played. So are wins.

Having said that, Watson in my book is one of the best QB’s I’ve watched. If the Rams traded for him I would be ready to roll and be excited. Personally , the only scenario Goff is a better option is if the contract value is there and Goff has a really good Oline. Goff can operate a more efficient realiable offense when he has the protection. But in the NFL with contracts and injuries Goff is going to have down years much like Matt Ryan. Goff simply can’t adjust like Watson can when protection isn’t there. Goff had what was probably a stroke of luck with 2 years of minimal injuries to his Oline in 2017-18. But in the those years his QB play was Elite. There was no stat padding with Mcvay and there is no question in my mind that if we didn’t sit on the ball in the blowouts Goff finishes with a 40 TD 13 int year in 18. Or even if we just threw more rather than let Gurley run it in so often. It’s one thing to be a 2x Pro Bowler like Andy Dalton, but a whole different thing to lead the top offense in the NFL over two years straight.

Second, some have questioned if we can rebuild the line. So we need a center and then we just need luck. The injuries added up this year and affected the production. How many games did our best 5 play together? Don’t forget Kromer started with Noteboom and there were injuries to Whitworth, and Edwards at key moments. My personal Opinion is you get that center taken care of and a veteran depth not named Evans or Noteboom and you will return to that line Goff can thrive behind.

 

[NJRamsFan]

I didn't complain. Consider me genuinely interested. What's the goal behind entering a Goff megathread to ridicule people for talking about Goff.

The goal lmao? To take over the world!

you felt I didn’t need to make that post in this thread which you’ve expressed. And you want to continue this conversation because?

 

[UKram]

Lol still testy and I understand but numbers don't lie and neither do results.

Results don’t lie ? .. Watson 4-12 goff 9-6 and would been 10-6 because he would have started if not injured .... if results don’t lie doesn’t that mean that goff is a better qb the Watson

 

[UKram]

Goff is #1 in the NFL in turnovers the past 2 years. 2019 + 2020 combined. That's the definition of a turnover machine.

There's not another QB in the NFL that has been a bigger turnover machine recently.

Also happens to be the 4-5th most winningest QB in the last four years ... what’s your point

 

[payote75]

There is nothing new to say here. There’s the Goff can do no wrong group. The Goff can do no right group. The Goff has been doing wrong but will turn it around group. And the Goff has been doing wrong and won’t turn it around group. And everyone is just flinging shit.

During the season it was one thing but are we really gonna have the same stale conversation all off-season while no new data is being interjected??

That's a great way of putting it. The problem lyes with the people that are in the middle like you love every player and you want them all to succeed and also succeed collectively as a team. That said we can be down on a couple of players and that's fine because we see someone not playing up to there contract we are fans we call it out. What gets sketchy with Goff is a couple of things:
1. You have to love him or automatically your put in the "you hate Goff fan club" you can't just say he has been awful lately we need better play and we at least need him to manage a game not turn it over." Or bring up that.... yes game managing is fine but I don't want to pay or tie up that much cap for a game manager. So if an upgrade is available I would look into it.
Did we not do the same with Marcus Peters we all were tired of his play here and obviously so was management so we did what? We traded him and upgraded to one of the best. Nobody got testy when peters was torn to shreds on the board week after week. Why with Goff? We can all want him to be great we can't will it to make it so only he can.

2. Most importantly Goff gets heat because he is at the quarterback position it's the single most important and talked about after games more than even head coaching blunders. The quarterback is the most visible the one who has the ball makes the plays etc. So naturally if you play that position criticism will be harsh and great.

You can go back and look at my posts a lot of them are pro Goff but when it's warranted I see things people see things we voice those opinions. Shouldn't have to be a war every time someone does that.
Any real rams fan wants success so why on earth would Goff defenders think there is a conspiracy a secret society of ram fans who hate Goff and want to see him fail. If he is left at the end carryimg the Lombardi I couldn't be more happy as I'm sure everyone else would be.

 

[payote75]

Results don’t lie ? .. Watson 4-12 goff 9-6 and would been 10-6 because he would have started if not injured .... if results don’t lie doesn’t that mean that goff is a better qb the Watson

No bro we were 9-6 mostly for the defense had we had a middle of the road defense we would be giving the jaguars a pick in the 1-8 section of the draft. Got to just dig a bit deeper on the stats.

 

[payote75]

One more thing AD is one of my all time favourite rams ok so let's say for the next 3 years he would start sting ehhh mediocre or even just not good. Am I supposed to live from his past accolades or would it be justified for me to call him out? And I would. Can't live on the past or on the past. That said Goff hasn't done 1/10 of what AD has done but AD would and should criticised or evaluated if his play took a nose dive. As a fan I'm about winning yes I have loyalty to Ayers way more than owners lol but like owning a business when I pay you a certain amount you need to prove it and justify the money I'm giving you. I hope Goff snaps out of it and earns an even bigger contact his next go around but please can we ease up on attacking people when they call the obvious out. And aren't we supposed to be a ramily. It's cool to disagree and even better to agree but do we really need to get defensive or be a dbags to one another and I'm not leaving myself out of it I snap and can be an asshole (sorry)!

 

[Ram_Rally]

The goal lmao? To take over the world!

you felt I didn’t need to make that post in this thread which you’ve expressed. And you want to continue this conversation because?

You got it man. I don't wanna make any enemies on the board lol. I hope the thread dies down and you get what you want

 

[dieterbrock]

Right, the same KW that got ran outta town when his OLine was a liability in pass pro...much like this years line, gotta say Warner would be hard pressed to perform with under 1.5 seconds to read, scan and deliver

2002 Kurt Warner

 

[thirteen28]

Right but there is a HUGE, gigantic, gargantuan sized gap between Watson's individual play and the Warner seasons I referenced, Bulger and Bradford. Check Warner's numbers for the Giants - they weren't great, and they were only 5-4 with him - hardly a great team.

That version of Warner, Bulger and Bradford were all guys who needed a lot of help to be successful - that we didn't have that help means we were right to jettison Warner, and should have sooner with Bulger and Bradford - if you're not going to put the cast around them and they need it, then they're not going to be successful.

The difference in Watson's case was his play in spite of the supporting cast. With these guys (and Goff at times) people are excusing their play because of the supporting cast. With Watson you don't need anything around him to be great - just average.

That's fair - but also, put Warner on this Rams team and we're talking about how badly were going to beat the Packers this Sunday.

Part of the problem with this debate is you seem to want to debate the relative merits of QBs while I am trying to illustrate how fans too often single them out and miss the bigger picture of what's going on with the team as a whole.

Want to make the case that Warner, a HOF QB, was better that Goff? No argument from me. And you can certainly make an argument that I'll probably agree with in regard to Watson being more talented than Goff.

Still, as I demonstrated with Warner, when he ran into a rough patch, the Rams organization and a significant chunk of the fanbase threw him under the bus and blamed him for a whole host of problems that weren't solved with his departure and got worse over time, while Warner's problems were solved once he figured out the use of the glove and had some decent talent around him. With Watson, you've argued that he can put up good numbers on a team that went 4-12, and I have no disagreement with that, nor do I blame Watson for Houston's troubles. However, just as were fans willing and eager to throw Warner under the bus when trouble began, I'd bet dollars to donuts that there are fans in Houston's fanbase ready to dump Watson for their 4-12 finish, which would be stupid.

While I will certainly agree there are things that Goff needs to do better on, if anyone expects him to get back to his 2017-18 form while standing pat with the surrounding team, you are probably dreaming of something that can never be. So instead of throwing the QB under the bus as this franchise and fanbase is wont to do, we should probably demand that the improve the parts of the team that have declined along with Goff's play from that time.

Two years ago, after Goff led this team to the Super Bowl in only his 3rd year, McVay committed to him - the extension Goff signed wouldn't have happened had the head coach not given his thumbs up. Well, the word "commitment" means you stick to it even when you hit a rough patch. It doesn't take a commitment to stick with things when they are going great. Further, when you commit to a QB, you commit to creating the conditions in which he can thrive, or at least agree to accept that he'll struggle some when those conditions are not present. And those conditions haven't been present for two years now because McVay and Snead agree to let two interior lineman of a great offensive line go at the same time, one of whom was worth re-signing (Saffold), and added to that mistake by not bringing anyone in for the following season when it was clear it wasn't going to work out. Last year the Rams focused their FA energies on defensive guys while the draft brought in one reserve lineman in the late rounds. They gambled that they could trot out the same 5 starters as last year and that the offense would return to form. We saw how that worked out.

So instead of pining for a QB like Watson - one in which we would have to blow up the team to get and create conditions not unlike those under which he went 4-12, maybe we should have a little fucking patience with the guy we have now - who has demonstrated the ability to play at an extremely high level with the right conditions. And maybe the coaching staff and GM should replace the turnstile we have for a center and get more beef for the interior OL, thereby actually honoring the commitment they made two years ago.

Tossing away talented QB's is almost as bad as churning your head coach when it comes to franchise success. The Rams tossed away Jim Everett in the 1990's, nothing improved at QB from that move and the team turned to dogshit for the better part of a decade. Then they turned around and tossed Warner under the bus and the team turned to dogshit for more than a decade. Maybe the fanbase and the team could learn from that history.

 

[thirteen28]

I say this because we have seen Mcvay with Goff whom he inherited.

Once McVay agreed that Goff should be extended - and make no mistake, it would not have happened without his blessing - Goff became *his* guy. From that point on, the "inherited" argument is moot. McVay committed to Goff, therefore Goff is now HIS guy.

 

[dieterbrock]

But some of us root for the entire team not just the single player. If any player isn't playing up to par then as fans don't you think we should call it out???

There isnt a player on the team that has received the criticism that Goff has had. It's not even close. And of course he rarely receives credit when he does play well. The Jets game is the perfect example. Goff got so ragged on after that game, yet the defense couldn't stop an offense which was one of the worst in the league. And even after the offense scored on 4 consecutive 2nd possessions, the defense couldnt keep the Jets off the scoreboard themselves, and more importantly from making 1st downs late in the game.
But it was Goff's fault.......

 

[dieterbrock]

Turnover machine...do tell

Playoffs 2 games -zero

Seems to me he bunched over 50% of his turnovers in 3 games, I could present some extenuating circumstances but at this point why bother.

Am I wrong?

And sorry if “parroting“ was overly offensive but didn’t you just double down

Right, after the 49er game where he was terrible and McVay called him out publicly, Goff has only had 3 turnovers in the 6 games since

 

[payote75]

Once McVay agreed that Goff should be extended - and make no mistake, it would not have happened without his blessing - Goff became *his* guy. From that point on, the "inherited" argument is moot. McVay committed to Goff, therefore Goff is now HIS guy.

Well he as earned and reserved the right to change his mind and his input might be a bit more now than when initially hired. So if he wants his guy he should have him the caveat then becomes if he gets his guy and puts his entire stamp on this team and still doesn't win well then mcvay will fall to all the criticism Goff and others fall to like should he be let go or extended or short comings etc. Nobody is untouchable.

 

[payote75]

There isnt a player on the team that has received the criticism that Goff has had. It's not even close. And of course he rarely receives credit when he does play well. The Jets game is the perfect example. Goff got so ragged on after that game, yet the defense couldn't stop an offense which was one of the worst in the league. And even after the offense scored on 4 consecutive 2nd possessions, the defense couldnt keep the Jets off the scoreboard themselves, and more importantly from making 1st downs late in the game.
But it was Goff's fault.......

I see that point and it's a very fair one but not everyone should be held accountable for that. If you were to check most of my posts they are typical fan posts but I speak well of him and I call him out and then I even let you know when I'm about to jump off the wagon. I get where your coming from and that's where my heart sometimes gets the better of my fandom. I want Goff to be the next great one I'm thinking we all do but if some don't see it or want to jump off that train they shouldn't be jumped all over. What you said is spot on I hate that media seems to want to see him fail and they tear him apart. I have made posts about that very thing. That said when we do it here amongst ourselves there is no agenda it's just passion for all of our team that's all. It's like when one of your kids does something stupid and someone else points it out to them and almost like steps over the line and automatically even knowing your kids wrong you go on the defense or the attack where you like don't talk toy kid that way and then I would get hope all cocky happy and my dad would kick my ass. Lol We ban together against the media like that they have no right most of them anyway some do like goff but in here we should be free to say it with no ass beating lol.

 

[Tano]

That's a great way of putting it. The problem lyes with the people that are in the middle like you love every player and you want them all to succeed and also succeed collectively as a team. That said we can be down on a couple of players and that's fine because we see someone not playing up to there contract we are fans we call it out. What gets sketchy with Goff is a couple of things:
1. You have to love him or automatically your put in the "you hate Goff fan club" you can't just say he has been awful lately we need better play and we at least need him to manage a game not turn it over." Or bring up that.... yes game managing is fine but I don't want to pay or tie up that much cap for a game manager. So if an upgrade is available I would look into it.
Did we not do the same with Marcus Peters we all were tired of his play here and obviously so was management so we did what? We traded him and upgraded to one of the best. Nobody got testy when peters was torn to shreds on the board week after week. Why with Goff? We can all want him to be great we can't will it to make it so only he can.

2. Most importantly Goff gets heat because he is at the quarterback position it's the single most important and talked about after games more than even head coaching blunders. The quarterback is the most visible the one who has the ball makes the plays etc. So naturally if you play that position criticism will be harsh and great.

You can go back and look at my posts a lot of them are pro Goff but when it's warranted I see things people see things we voice those opinions. Shouldn't have to be a war every time someone does that.
Any real rams fan wants success so why on earth would Goff defenders think there is a conspiracy a secret society of ram fans who hate Goff and want to see him fail. If he is left at the end carryimg the Lombardi I couldn't be more happy as I'm sure everyone else would be.

I have never stated that you either love or hate Goff. No - I just feel certain people are downright critical of Goff without acknowledging that Goff has played well in those same games.

The Miami game - he played terrible in the first half and made terrible decisions - if he doesn't, we win that game with ease

However, he had a very good 4th qtr and did bring us back to the point that if Everett catches the ball, we have a good chance at possibly winning the game.

The first 49er game - again a terrible first half, but guess what he had a very good 2nd half and again almost brought us back in the game if either Kupp or Higbee catches the two dropped TD passes.

He brought us back in the Jets game only to have two chancy play calls at the end of the game. Both of them should have been shorter play designs but McVay AND Goff saw the defense match ups and decided to roll the dice. I would have been more conservative but then again I have seen conservative coaches lose because they are too conservative.

The second 49er game - Goff brought us back only for the defense to have one of their few end of game hiccups and lose it.

And the Green Bay game - he was bringing us back when Reynolds dropped the ball.

In each of those games (except the Green Bay game) he had terrible first halves and decisions but had good to very good second halves.

And the second halves play is what gives me hope that with an upgrade at Center will bring Goff back to the very good QB range.

He will never be elite because if he doesn't have a above average to good line, he will not be able to carry the team on his back.

But how many QBs can do that right now? Watson (maybe) Wilson Mahomes Rodgers and Allen.

That's it. Until the Rookies do it more than one year, I won't believe that they can do it either. It usually takes one year before defenses figure out rookies. Year and a half in Murray's case. He has been figured out. Jackson too because if you contain Jackson in the pocket, he becomes a less than average QB.