The Goff-season Thread

[FrantikRam]

Not quite accurate, but it still illustrates my point.

First, with Warner, he had a so-so season with the Giants, and was actually on his way to taking them to the playoffs. But the Giants had drafted Eli Manning, and Tom Coughlin wanted him to start, so Warner got benched for that reason alone (and much to the anger of his teammates, who wanted Warner to continue starting). If I remember correctly, the Giants didn't win a single game that Eli started that year (but emphasis on 'if'). In 2006, Warner went to the Cardinals, who had drafted Matt Leinart as their future. That's when Warner started wearing the glove too ... something the Rams could have figured out with him had they not threw him under the bus. Leinart started most or all of 2006 given that he was the Cardinals first round draft pick ... then in 2007, the Cardinals finally threw in the towel and gave the reins to Warner. With a supporting cast that was good, he returned to the same form he showed with the Rams when the supporting cast around him there was solid.

The Rams and many fans gave up on a HOF QB, blaming him for the Rams problems, when clearly a significant portion of Warner's struggles were due to the decline in the team around him. As for the Rams, after Warner got kicked to the curb, there were two 8-8 seasons and many worse than that until McVay arrived. Warner's replacement, Mark Bulger (not bad, but nowhere near Warner's talent) got blamed for all the struggles of the Rams, even though the team around him became shittier and shittier (I heard a lot of the "he doesn't elevate the team around him!" arguments then). So, once he was shot, we draft Sam Bradford, but never bother to get him decent WRs, never bother to put a quality OL in front of him, and we got two predictable results - the QB looked mediocre, and the QB got blamed for their struggles. This lasted up until the time Bradford's knee turned into chopped spaghetti. I don't know if Bradford ever would have panned out, but I'm pretty confident few if any QBs would have panned out in the situation he was put in.

That's the history of this team and this fan base. When there are expectations on a QB but the talent isn't there or isn't as good as it once was when the QB played at a higher level, there is always a loud contingent that myopically focuses on that one position while ignoring the other factors. And any QB - Watson included - that started for a team that went 4-12 would become the target of those fans. You can decide for yourself if you are one of those fans.

Myself, I sure wouldn't blame Watson for the struggles of the Texans, especially in the wake of a moronic head coach who dismantled that team with dumb trades and poor decisions, leaving Watson with little around him to work with. At the same time, while I'll hold Goff accountable for mistakes that are clearly his own, I'm not going to blame him for playing at a level that is less than 2017-18 when the talent around him - especially up front - is not at that level either.

Right but there is a HUGE, gigantic, gargantuan sized gap between Watson's individual play and the Warner seasons I referenced, Bulger and Bradford. Check Warner's numbers for the Giants - they weren't great, and they were only 5-4 with him - hardly a great team.

That version of Warner, Bulger and Bradford were all guys who needed a lot of help to be successful - that we didn't have that help means we were right to jettison Warner, and should have sooner with Bulger and Bradford - if you're not going to put the cast around them and they need it, then they're not going to be successful.

The difference in Watson's case was his play in spite of the supporting cast. With these guys (and Goff at times) people are excusing their play because of the supporting cast. With Watson you don't need anything around him to be great - just average.

 

[kurtfaulk]

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If Ramsey isn't playing around that's a very bad look.

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[jrry32]

Pretty sure he was only given one option to check into, at least isnt this common knowledge the Rams call at least two plays in the huddle? (What if both plays were wrong, did he have the reign to x McVays call? probably not)

100% disagree with your second sentence, first how the heck can you make that statement with any authority, lol, I guess the great Aerosmith lyric “you gotta lose to learn how to win” doesn’t resonate, to me that’s a very prophetic line.

That's not all that different from what Peyton Manning used to do.

Manning the master of changing plays

Manning the master of changing plays

www.denverpost.com

Once at the line, huddle be darned, Manning scans the defense while contemplating a package of three or four plays called into his helmet by offensive coordinator Tom Moore.

“I give him an idea of what we’re thinking,” Moore said Tuesday during Super Bowl XLI media day at Dolphin Stadium in Miami. “And he goes from there.”

There is barking to the right, shouting to the left and hand gestures going every which way. Usually these gyrations by the quarterback mean an audible to a new play is called. But the Chicago Bears, who play the Colts for the NFL championship Sunday, believe Manning usually calls one of the plays sent through his helmet speaker.

 

[payote75]

Pretty sure he was only given one option to check into, at least isnt this common knowledge the Rams call at least two plays in the huddle? (What if both plays were wrong, did he have the reign to x McVays call? probably not)

100% disagree with your second sentence, first how the heck can you make that statement with any authority, lol, I guess Aerosmith lyric “you gotta lose to learn how to win” doesn’t resonate, to me that’s a very prophetic line.

I say this because we have seen Mcvay with Goff whom he inherited. A lot of coaches or GM's do not go for that. For instance look at Philly they were telling any possible coaching candidate" you can have this job just know wentz is our starter" got Pederson fired... it puts someone in an awkward position. Now mcvay was bright eyed young and what 30 year old young single good looking guy wouldn't want such opportunity in la with all that was about to happen new market new stadium. He actually became the face of the franchise more so than the players the first year.

Anyway we have yet to see mcvay with his own choice of quarterback to run the offense how he would like which is why he was hired and in my opinion he has earned that through his performance.

We can't forget that Goff initially was being fed plays/defenses through his headset. I remember at the time I did say that could hinder his progress but there is a reason why mcvay felt compelled to coddle him and still does.
Now maybe Goff can do well without mcvay but they both deserve a chance to prove it. Succeed without each other then we can see who's fault it is or maybe they both good and need a change. That said though if there is to be a new qb he has to be mcvays guy his choice his project etc.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

I say this because we have seen Mcvay with Goff whom he inherited. A lot of coaches or GM's do not go for that. For instance look at Philly they were telling any possible coaching candidate" you can have this job just know wentz is our starter" got Pederson fired... it puts someone in an awkward position. Now mcvay was bright eyed young and what 30 year old young single good looking guy wouldn't want such opportunity in la with all that was about to happen new market new stadium. He actually became the face of the franchise more so than the players the first year.

Anyway we have yet to see mcvay with his own choice of quarterback to run the offense how he would like which is why he was hired and in my opinion he has earned that through his performance.

We can't forget that Goff initially was being fed plays/defenses through his headset. I remember at the time I did say that could hinder his progress but there is a reason why mcvay felt compelled to coddle him and still does.
Now maybe Goff can do well without mcvay but they both deserve a chance to prove it. Succeed without each other then we can see who's fault it is or maybe they both good and need a change. That said though if there is to be a new qb he has to be mcvays guy his choice his project etc.

McVays type of QB...probably something like Aaron Rodgers I’d guess, didn’t his spectacular play calling concuss Wolfy into leaving mid 1st quarter of his very second start, the stadium in an ambulance, must admit after 4-5 decades of football viewing, the utter slobbering on this site over Wolford was quite telling

 

[payote75]

There is a video of Ross Tucker and Dan Olevsky (spelling) who I think is great he is really informative and spot on a lot of times and he put it best and I'm paraphrasing...he said something which is common sense but very true..." If your going to turn the ball over then you have to be the quarterback that can create that superstar bonus play or many of them to negate those turnovers and Goff isn't that guy which means he simply cannot turn the ball over as much as he does.

No ovlevsky is very good friends with Goff and text him repeatedly and told him stop forcing it use your check downs etc.

Progressions
Reading defenses
And now confidence seem to be Goffs issues. That's how I see it and Olevsky to me is exactly right.

 

[FrantikRam]

Fair enough, but the point is that Warner needed the right conditions to succeed - and that's a HOF QB. If it applies to him, it pretty much applies to any QB.

That's fair - but also, put Warner on this Rams team and we're talking about how badly were going to beat the Packers this Sunday.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

That's fair - but also, put Warner on this Rams team and we're talking about how badly were going to beat the Packers this Sunday.

Right, the same KW that got ran outta town when his OLine was a liability in pass pro...much like this years line, gotta say Warner would be hard pressed to perform with under 1.5 seconds to read, scan and deliver

 

[payote75]

McVays type of QB...probably something like Aaron Rodgers I’d guess, didn’t his spectacular play calling concuss Wolfy into leaving mid 1st quarter of his very second start, the stadium in an ambulance, must admit after 4-5 decades of football viewing, the utter slobbering on this site over Wolford was quite telling

Dude that's not fair man i understand and it's crazy when people get so testy about Goff. Like who doesn't want Goff to be Joe Montana??? But some of us root for the entire team not just the single player. If any player isn't playing up to par then as fans don't you think we should call it out??? Like if next season Ramsey starts to blow coverages not tackle etc. You think we won't say something about that? Comes a time where you can't make excuses for a player and that's what some Goff lovers are doing.

I'm ok if Goff comes back next season having put in the work and crams a football down all our throats ...we want that however the problem remains and if we see a chance to upgrade you take it. Just like you want to upgrade other parts of the team. There are players that cannot be upgraded I don't need to name them but the last two years our qb needs a massive upgrade or needs to step up and upgrade himself. And yes mcvay is not untouchable either but he has done more as a coach for this franchise than Goff has that's for sure.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Dude that's not fair man i understand and it's crazy when people get so testy about Goff. Like who doesn't want Goff to be Joe Montana??? But some of us root for the entire team not just the single player. If any player isn't playing up to par then as fans don't you think we should call it out??? Like if next season Ramsey starts to blow coverages not tackle etc. You think we won't say something about that? Comes a time where you can't make excuses for a player and that's what some Goff lovers are doing.

I'm ok if Goff comes back next season having put in the work and crams a football down all our throats ...we want that however the problem remains and if we see a chance to upgrade you take it. Just like you want to upgrade other parts of the team. There are players that cannot be upgraded I don't need to name them but the last two years our qb needs a massive upgrade or needs to step up and upgrade himself. And yes mcvay is not untouchable either but he has done more as a coach for this franchise than Goff has that's for sure.

Pretty sure we are on completely different pages here, I can live with that

i stand by my comments

 

[FrantikRam]

Right, the same KW that got ran outta town when his OLine was a liability in pass pro...much like this years line, gotta say Warner would be hard pressed to perform with under 1.5 seconds to read, scan and deliver

But Warner was much better under pressure than Goff is, and 1.5 seconds is an exaggeration. He was also far superior to Goff at reading defenses.

We may not have lost a game with Warner.

And that's not a knock on Goff - Kurt is a hall of famer

 

[FrantikRam]

Dude that's not fair man i understand and it's crazy when people get so testy about Goff. Like who doesn't want Goff to be Joe Montana??? But some of us root for the entire team not just the single player. If any player isn't playing up to par then as fans don't you think we should call it out??? Like if next season Ramsey starts to blow coverages not tackle etc. You think we won't say something about that? Comes a time where you can't make excuses for a player and that's what some Goff lovers are doing.

I'm ok if Goff comes back next season having put in the work and crams a football down all our throats ...we want that however the problem remains and if we see a chance to upgrade you take it. Just like you want to upgrade other parts of the team. There are players that cannot be upgraded I don't need to name them but the last two years our qb needs a massive upgrade or needs to step up and upgrade himself. And yes mcvay is not untouchable either but he has done more as a coach for this franchise than Goff has that's for sure.

This is an outstanding post

 

[payote75]

Pretty sure we are on completely different pages here, I can live with that

i stand by my comments

Well no I just referred to someone I like and respect and is actually good at his job. I'm not sure what your experience is but occasionally we do need to give way to people that actually played the game good or bad. Whats so crazy about what he said. Are your great eyes that you trust not showing you that Goff has been a turnover machine for the last 2 years? Are your eyes telling you that there is no room for improvement? Are your eyes also telling you Goff has reached his ceiling? Like I said I understand rooting for individuals but need to root for the team we need to admit Goff needs to improve. Wouldn't the same go for any other play who is playing sub par? Your does your vast knowledge only apt to Goff? Let's be fair dude. How many of us would be better at our jobs if we had everything perfectly laid out for us? It's not real or possible.

 

[jrry32]

Dude that's not fair man i understand and it's crazy when people get so testy about Goff. Like who doesn't want Goff to be Joe Montana??? But some of us root for the entire team not just the single player. If any player isn't playing up to par then as fans don't you think we should call it out??? Like if next season Ramsey starts to blow coverages not tackle etc. You think we won't say something about that? Comes a time where you can't make excuses for a player and that's what some Goff lovers are doing.

I'm ok if Goff comes back next season having put in the work and crams a football down all our throats ...we want that however the problem remains and if we see a chance to upgrade you take it. Just like you want to upgrade other parts of the team. There are players that cannot be upgraded I don't need to name them but the last two years our qb needs a massive upgrade or needs to step up and upgrade himself. And yes mcvay is not untouchable either but he has done more as a coach for this franchise than Goff has that's for sure.

Some of us root for the entire team and manage not to scapegoat a single player for unit-wide and team-wide failures.

 

[payote75]

Some of us root for the entire team and manage not to scapegoat a single player for unit-wide and team-wide failures.

I hear that but that's what I mean about testy. I'm not scapegoating Goff. I'm merely voicing the obvious he needs to improve. He needs to get better. He needs to not turn the ball over gee I don't know maybe at least about 50% less. The reason it may seem that people attack Goff is because he plays one of the most pivotal positions if not the most pivotal so hence the "we hate goff committee but not really cause we are rams fans and want to win at all costs" like of course we can say Floyd assuming he were to stay a ram needs to get better and more consistent and spread his sacks out not like 6 of them coming against Wussell Wilson or Hekker could have been better like his last 5-6 games and maybe with the money he makes as a punter he may have to be evaluated too. But a new punter isn't as glamorous or as pivotal as the quarterback position is it???

 

[Kevin]

GUYS LOOK
View attachment 43116

I'm 60 years old. What the hell does any of this gibberish mean?

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

But Warner was much better under pressure than Goff is, and 1.5 seconds is an exaggeration. He was also far superior to Goff at reading defenses.

We may not have lost a game with Warner.

And that's not a knock on Goff - Kurt is a hall of famer

I seriously must question if you were witness to Warner’s last couple of years in STL, the headhunters we’re out for blood and Bulger was the new darling (I most definitely was and remember)

All the while I can recall arguing with my dumb younger Bulger fanboy brother...all I needed to see is if Kurt Warner was afforded minimal time...did he still have it, well guess what, that was never answered then along came the thumb injury and the rest is history

An Historically bad decision By the Rams annnnnd the better part of their fan base

This much is fact my man, at age 26 J Goff is light years ahead of 26 year old Kurt Warner, just a simple true statement, nothing more nothing less

 

[jrry32]

I hear that but that's what I mean about testy. I'm not scapegoating Goff. I'm merely voicing the obvious he needs to improve. He needs to get better. He needs to not turn the ball over gee I don't know maybe at least about 50% less. The reason it may seem that people attack Goff is because he plays one of the most pivotal positions if not the most pivotal so hence the "we hate goff committee but not really cause we are rams fans and want to win at all costs" like of course we can say Floyd assuming he were to stay a ram needs to get better and more consistent and spread his sacks out not like 6 of them coming against Wussell Wilson or Hekker could have been better like his last 5-6 games and maybe with the money he makes as a punter he may have to be evaluated too. But a new punter isn't as glamorous or as pivotal as the quarterback position is it???

Maybe people aren't "testy" about the point that Goff needs to improve. Rather, they're "testy" that you're implying they don't root for the entire team like you do if they see things differently. For the record, I have stated repeatedly that Goff needs to play better next year. And while we're on the subject of Hekker, I think it's crazy to want to look for a new punter. Some of y'all are far too quick to give up on players. There is volatility from year to year in the NFL. Guys can have down years without being bums or being washed up.

 

[payote75]

I seriously must question if you were witness to Warner’s last couple of years in STL, the headhunters we’re out for blood and Bulger was the new darling (I most definitely was and remember)

All the while I can recall arguing with my dumb younger Bulger fanboy brother...all I needed to see is if Kurt Warner was afforded minimal time...did he still have it, well guess what, that was never answered then along came the thumb injury and the rest is history

An Historically bad decision By the Rams annnnnd the better part of their fan base

This much is fact my man, at age 26 J Goff is light years ahead of 26 year old Kurt Warner, just a simple true statement, nothing more nothing less

The fact remains if I heard correctly on Sunday our offensive line was ranked third in the league. Yes they are better at run blocking and yes I myself have said they are not good at holding a block to give Goff that extra edge however like I said if your a superstar at any job you have to sometimes rise above less than perfect conditions. Hey I would love to get Goff Warford Trent Williams Lindley and maybe stefan diggs but it's not possible.

 

[payote75]

Maybe people aren't "testy" about the point that Goff needs to improve. Rather, they're "testy" that you're implying they don't root for the entire team like you do if they see things differently. For the record, I have stated repeatedly that Goff needs to play better next year. And while we're on the subject of Hekker, I think it's crazy to want to look for a new punter. Some of y'all are far too quick to give up on players. There is volatility from year to year in the NFL. Guys can have down years without being bums or being washed up.

For shits sake I was giving examples of evaluating a player when they don't play up to their contract. And as far as implications with all do respect please don't tell me what I was doing or "implying." I wasn't implying anything I was making a statement and when someone says someone is "implying" it's usually because it means the other person is "sensitive" and "assuming" and you know the old say about assuming.