The Goff-season Thread

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

FrantikRam

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,824
... no running game and no defense... you can't win football games with 1 out of 4 sides of the ball playing well.

Can't believe you are being serious? Are you trolling and I'm falling for it?


Pretty insane to think what this forum would be like if Goff put up Watson's numbers with his team - including a top 3 WR in the NFL being traded in the offseason and getting sacked 50 times (some of which is his fault, but their OL was not good) - and fans on here were saying "well he's not that good because we only won 4 games" - I don't think people quite realize how good Watson was this year. Houston finished scoring more points than we did by a smidge, while putting up just a smidge less yards - so basically they had the same offense as we did with:

worse coaching
worse WR/TEs
worse RBs
worse OL

All because of the QB

The 4-12 is pretty easily explained once you see that the Texans defense allowed 30 passing TDs to 3 INTs, along with having the worst run defense in the NFL - 5.2 ypc allowed and another 17 TDs

So their defense basically made every player on average look like a top 5 QB and the best RB in the NFL, every week.

We had the best defense in the NFL and they were 30th in yards allowed and 27th in points allowed.

Switch defenses and the records like switch too.
 

Allen2McVay

Legend
Joined
Mar 29, 2020
Messages
8,476
Name
Jim
... no running game and no defense... you can't win football games with 1 out of 4 sides of the ball playing well.

Can't believe you are being serious? Are you trolling and I'm falling for it?
Most fans know that QB is the most important position on a football team.

Some fans mistakenly extend that to think QB is the only position that matters.
 

Memphis Ram

Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
7,288
$12 million in cap space ain't shit. We have a two-time Pro Bowl QB who helped us make the Super Bowl two years ago, has had us in the playoffs in three of the past four years, and hasn't led us to a losing record in any season under McVay. Jettisoning that dude before he has even reached the window for pocket passers to enter their prime is a questionable decision. Paying another franchise to take that dude is downright lunacy.

I understand your point, but the $12+ million in cap space is just for 2021. It's close to 3x that amount in 2022.

Also, while an accomplishment, the 2x Pro Bowl would impress me more if he were a 2x All Pro instead. Matt Schaub was a 2x Pro Bowler. Andy Dalton 3x. Mitchell Tribusky, Tyrod Taylor, Nick Foles etc. have even made the Pro Bowl roster.

But, again, I get your main point.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,873
I understand your point, but the $12+ million in cap space is just for 2021. It's close to 3x that amount in 2022.

Also, while an accomplishment, the 2x Pro Bowl would impress me more if he were a 2x All Pro instead. Matt Schaub was a 2x Pro Bowler. Andy Dalton 3x. Mitchell Tribusky, Tyrod Taylor, Nick Foles etc. have even made the Pro Bowl roster.

But, again, I get your main point.

And we'd still need a QB.
 

Ellard80

Legend
Joined
Aug 11, 2016
Messages
6,424
Its exaggeration to make a point I assume. I find some of the responses funny, because there's a contingent here who seemingly give Goff no respect for wins, and blame him for losses. But Watson bears no blame in winning only 4 games.
Again, its exaggeration because I think its pretty clear that Watson is the 3rd best QB in the game right now, awful season aside.
There were 5 games last season that Houston lost where Watson had the ball late with a chance to tie or take lead and none of those were converted.
In theory, the "elite" QB should be able to flip the outcome of at least 1 or 2 of those.
But as we all know, football isnt played on a spreadsheet, outcomes are dependant on so many factors.
Me personally? I would excuse each loss as not on his shoulders, and point to the 21 wins over the previous 2 seasons to show what he can do with a "little" help

Yeah i think its an exagerration.... but the point is already obvious anyway. Of course Goff can't win games by himself.

I agree with most of what you are saying here.
 

Ellard80

Legend
Joined
Aug 11, 2016
Messages
6,424
Pretty insane to think what this forum would be like if Goff put up Watson's numbers with his team - including a top 3 WR in the NFL being traded in the offseason and getting sacked 50 times (some of which is his fault, but their OL was not good) - and fans on here were saying "well he's not that good because we only won 4 games" - I don't think people quite realize how good Watson was this year. Houston finished scoring more points than we did by a smidge, while putting up just a smidge less yards - so basically they had the same offense as we did with:

worse coaching
worse WR/TEs
worse RBs
worse OL

All because of the QB

The 4-12 is pretty easily explained once you see that the Texans defense allowed 30 passing TDs to 3 INTs, along with having the worst run defense in the NFL - 5.2 ypc allowed and another 17 TDs

So their defense basically made every player on average look like a top 5 QB and the best RB in the NFL, every week.

We had the best defense in the NFL and they were 30th in yards allowed and 27th in points allowed.

Switch defenses and the records like switch too.

yeah if Goff had those numbers... I know what this board would like - absolutely everyone would be blaming everyone else but him.

Which is ironic when you read into the agenda behind what a couple people are saying.
 
Last edited:

FrantikRam

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,824
And we'd still need a QB.


Would you agree that this season the Rams likely have the same results with a number of QBs that would be available to us? You did agree that this year Goff was average to below average overall - so I assume that's the case?

If so it sounds like the main difference is that you think Goff can get back to his two years of good play?
 

12intheBox

Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
10,055
Name
Wil Fay
I keep seeing the Dolphins name come up with Watson.

I’d be interested in Tua.
 

Merlin

Damn the torpedoes
Rams On Demand Sponsor
ROD Credit | 2023 TOP Member
Joined
May 8, 2014
Messages
38,892
In the recent Late Night Happy Hour with the Kamenetzky Brothers there was a lot of good talk about QB. Couple things that stuck with me too...

First the question "is Goff holding McVay back." We all have our opinions there and my own is that this season where the Rams had a #1 scoring defense and developed a fantastic run game down the stretch the QB position did hold the Rams back, the argument is moreso how much of it was Goff and whether he can get his mojo back. But the opinion that matters is McVay. And if you imagine being McVay going into an NFC playoffs where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a future Hall of Fame QB it makes sense that his irritation with his QB position (and some other parts of the team too btw like the OL, WR, and gameplanning) might boil over a bit and put that question in his mind.

Second is their discussion about McVay wanting to get "granular" with the offense. The question of to what extent he's been involved in the three different phases I find very interesting. He reportedly hired Staley because he wanted to be more involved in defensive gameplanning and he was also rumored to be more involved in defense than people realize (first time I heard that was during Wade's last season if memory serves). If that is true does he feel like he needs to be more involved in the offense? Sounds like that might be the case if the reporters are reading things correctly.

This is going to be a really interesting offseason man.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,487
Name
Erik
I keep seeing the Dolphins name come up with Watson.

I’d be interested in Tua.


I didn't see anything in Tua this year that would make me think he's a long term solution for anyone. And if the Dolphins give up a ransom to get Watson, that means they don't either.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,487
Name
Erik
yeah if Goff had those numbers... I know what this board would like - absolutely everyone would be blaming everyone else but him.

Which is ironic when you read into the agenda behind what a couple people are saying.


On the flip side, if Watson put up those numbers in a Rams uni and the team finished 4-12, I guarantee you'd still see a lot of Rams fans putting all the blame on him for the losses. He'd be getting bashed just as much as Goff is now.

Rams fans love to run QBs out of town, irrespective of the team around him. Saw it with Everett, whose career had a renaissance in New Orleans before his elbow injury, while the Rams continued to decline. Saw it with Warner, who took a historically bad franchise to the Super Bowl, while the Rams just became historically bad.

You'd hope people would learn from history and look at things in totality. But blaming the QB for all the problems is just so much easier and so much more satisfying for some reason.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,873
Would you agree that this season the Rams likely have the same results with a number of QBs that would be available to us? You did agree that this year Goff was average to below average overall - so I assume that's the case?

If so it sounds like the main difference is that you think Goff can get back to his two years of good play?

Who are the QBs available to us?
 

FrantikRam

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,824
On the flip side, if Watson put up those numbers in a Rams uni and the team finished 4-12, I guarantee you'd still see a lot of Rams fans putting all the blame on him for the losses. He'd be getting bashed just as much as Goff is now.

Rams fans love to run QBs out of town, irrespective of the team around him. Saw it with Everett, whose career had a renaissance in New Orleans before his elbow injury, while the Rams continued to decline. Saw it with Warner, who took a historically bad franchise to the Super Bowl, while the Rams just became historically bad.

You'd hope people would learn from history and look at things in totality. But blaming the QB for all the problems is just so much easier and so much more satisfying for some reason.


I disagree.

There would be people who dislike and like Watson like there are people who dislike Goff - but what you would see are a lot of people like me who would have no issue with Watson if I were a Texans fan.

What seems to have been happening all year is that the fans who like Goff seem to lump in anyone who is critical of him in with the people who never wanted Goff to be a Ram. That's simply not the case.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,873
I suppose let's just go with Ryan Fitzpatrick or Gardner Minshew since I think both would be available.

Minshew wasn't available. The Jaguars made him the starter coming into the year. And I don't think we'd have been as good with him. With Fitzpatrick, it's hard to say. I think it's more likely we're worse, but he's such a volatile and streaky player that I can't say with any certainty.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,487
Name
Erik
I disagree.

There would be people who dislike and like Watson like there are people who dislike Goff - but what you would see are a lot of people like me who would have no issue with Watson if I were a Texans fan.

What seems to have been happening all year is that the fans who like Goff seem to lump in anyone who is critical of him in with the people who never wanted Goff to be a Ram. That's simply not the case.

I'm just going by history. I've seen this same thing play out, and I gave two examples. When Warner's play declined, the message board debates were fierce and from some of the posters you would have thought Warner was the worst thing to ever happen to the Rams.

And I think it's crazy to think that if the Rams were 4-12 with Watson taking snaps, there wouldn't be fans calling for his head as they are doing with Goff now, even with the numbers he (Watson) put up this year. There is ALWAYS a contingent of fans that look at the QB and nothing else, amplifying his every mistake while minimizing the problems around him. You can say it doesn't apply to you and maybe it truly doesn't - only you know for sure. But I guarantee it applies to a lot of the "off the the QBs head" crowd.

Hell, go look at the Seattle message board after we beat them in the playoffs. There were people blaming Wilson for the loss and saying he needed to be traded, when those of us outside the situation can see that Wilson and two decent WRs are the only thing that O has going for them. Their OL is hardly special and hasn't been for years, and I certainly wouldn't dream of taking any of the RBs over Cam Akers. Still, there is a contingent of fans there that want to put it all on Wilson. So really, don't tell me that a similar dynamic isn't going on here.
 

FrantikRam

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,824
I'm just going by history. I've seen this same thing play out, and I gave two examples. When Warner's play declined, the message board debates were fierce and from some of the posters you would have thought Warner was the worst thing to ever happen to the Rams.

And I think it's crazy to think that if the Rams were 4-12 with Watson taking snaps, there wouldn't be fans calling for his head as they are doing with Goff now, even with the numbers he (Watson) put up this year. There is ALWAYS a contingent of fans that look at the QB and nothing else, amplifying his every mistake while minimizing the problems around him. You can say it doesn't apply to you and maybe it truly doesn't - only you know for sure. But I guarantee it applies to a lot of the "off the the QBs head" crowd.

Hell, go look at the Seattle message board after we beat them in the playoffs. There were people blaming Wilson for the loss and saying he needed to be traded, when those of us outside the situation can see that Wilson and two decent WRs are the only thing that O has going for them. Their OL is hardly special and hasn't been for years, and I certainly wouldn't dream of taking any of the RBs over Cam Akers. Still, there is a contingent of fans there that want to put it all on Wilson. So really, don't tell me that a similar dynamic isn't going on here.

But the Rams did make the right decision getting rid of Warner. He had three poor/mediocre seasons after leaving the Rams, and only three good seasons with the Cardinals, and he had a top 5 all time WR duo there, which he would not have had here as Ike had declined.

Given how poor the Rams roster was in general, Warner had zero chance to succeed here IMO. I'm thrilled for him that he ended up in that scenario - prime Boldin and prime Fitz were MONSTERS - we just had nothing resembling that, and Martz wasn't really a QB friendly coach, so Warner would have kept getting killed. The only argument I see for keeping Warner was ousting Martz.
 

FrantikRam

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,824
Minshew wasn't available. The Jaguars made him the starter coming into the year. And I don't think we'd have been as good with him. With Fitzpatrick, it's hard to say. I think it's more likely we're worse, but he's such a volatile and streaky player that I can't say with any certainty.


Okay we're not going to agree on that, which is fine.

What I really wanted to know was that if you wanted to keep Goff because you thought he would get back to his prior form? Or if you would be okay with this version of Goff moving forward?

It seems like the only difference is that you have faith in Goff to rebound, while I don't because I don't see the OL being able to be improved enough to recreate the pockets we had in 2017/2018.

And if you do think he can get back to form, it follows that you think the OL/WR (or whatever the issue is) will be improved?

Although having said that, I'd be totally fine with Goff if he goes back to turning the ball over like he did in 2017/2018 as opposed to 2019/2020.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,487
Name
Erik
But the Rams did make the right decision getting rid of Warner. He had three poor/mediocre seasons after leaving the Rams, and only three good seasons with the Cardinals, and he had a top 5 all time WR duo there, which he would not have had here as Ike had declined.

Given how poor the Rams roster was in general, Warner had zero chance to succeed here IMO. I'm thrilled for him that he ended up in that scenario - prime Boldin and prime Fitz were MONSTERS - we just had nothing resembling that, and Martz wasn't really a QB friendly coach, so Warner would have kept getting killed. The only argument I see for keeping Warner was ousting Martz.

Not quite accurate, but it still illustrates my point.

First, with Warner, he had a so-so season with the Giants, and was actually on his way to taking them to the playoffs. But the Giants had drafted Eli Manning, and Tom Coughlin wanted him to start, so Warner got benched for that reason alone (and much to the anger of his teammates, who wanted Warner to continue starting). If I remember correctly, the Giants didn't win a single game that Eli started that year (but emphasis on 'if'). In 2006, Warner went to the Cardinals, who had drafted Matt Leinart as their future. That's when Warner started wearing the glove too ... something the Rams could have figured out with him had they not threw him under the bus. Leinart started most or all of 2006 given that he was the Cardinals first round draft pick ... then in 2007, the Cardinals finally threw in the towel and gave the reins to Warner. With a supporting cast that was good, he returned to the same form he showed with the Rams when the supporting cast around him there was solid.

The Rams and many fans gave up on a HOF QB, blaming him for the Rams problems, when clearly a significant portion of Warner's struggles were due to the decline in the team around him. As for the Rams, after Warner got kicked to the curb, there were two 8-8 seasons and many worse than that until McVay arrived. Warner's replacement, Mark Bulger (not bad, but nowhere near Warner's talent) got blamed for all the struggles of the Rams, even though the team around him became shittier and shittier (I heard a lot of the "he doesn't elevate the team around him!" arguments then). So, once he was shot, we draft Sam Bradford, but never bother to get him decent WRs, never bother to put a quality OL in front of him, and we got two predictable results - the QB looked mediocre, and the QB got blamed for their struggles. This lasted up until the time Bradford's knee turned into chopped spaghetti. I don't know if Bradford ever would have panned out, but I'm pretty confident few if any QBs would have panned out in the situation he was put in.

That's the history of this team and this fan base. When there are expectations on a QB but the talent isn't there or isn't as good as it once was when the QB played at a higher level, there is always a loud contingent that myopically focuses on that one position while ignoring the other factors. And any QB - Watson included - that started for a team that went 4-12 would become the target of those fans. You can decide for yourself if you are one of those fans.

Myself, I sure wouldn't blame Watson for the struggles of the Texans, especially in the wake of a moronic head coach who dismantled that team with dumb trades and poor decisions, leaving Watson with little around him to work with. At the same time, while I'll hold Goff accountable for mistakes that are clearly his own, I'm not going to blame him for playing at a level that is less than 2017-18 when the talent around him - especially up front - is not at that level either.
 
Last edited: