NFC is stacked....NO, Atl, Carolina, and Philly....are all serious and legit threats to our path to the SB. And I could easily add Seattle, Detroit, and Tampa to the mix....
Odell Beckham available for trade?
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But you're advocating for adding a high priced player who missed 12 games last year...
If we had OBJ next year he'd be very valuable. Probably the fourth or fifth best player on our team, but enough to make us SB favorites. I don't see him coming here unless he engineers the trade through his agents -- via a trade-me ultimatum to the Giants coupled with a willingness to accept a short term semi-cap-friendly deal (e.g., 2yrs for $36mil) with us (and no one else). Seems kind of farfetched, but no less likely than acquiring Peters, Talib and Suh would have seemed a month ago.
Some think that Sammy Watkins' lack of production was systemic. It wasn't.
Much of the reason Watkins wasn't focused nearly as much as he should have been is that he didn't know the playbook and it didn't get all that much better throughout the season.
I appreciate McVay's patience and I'm thrilled that Goff was so versed in the playbook that he was the one to correct Sammy and let him know if he was in the wrong position. That can't have instilled confidence that Sammy would be on time with the right route.
Here are the positives about OBJ (I'll get to the negatives in a moment):
1) Superlative talent. I think he's easily a top 3 receiver in the league and when targeted, he simply doesn't disappear. Moreover, if you look at exactly how much he improves an offense, it's undeniable. He truly saved Eli's career and I think one year without OBJ will have Eli retire. OBJ would put Goff close to 5k yards and 40TDs and that doesn't include all the damage opened up for Gurley... /shudder.
2) His behavior got out of control when two things happened a) he started feeling himself a little too much (please enjoy all the masturbation jokes offline) and b) the stunning lack of leadership including from ownership let him get away with untenable behaviors. I look at Peters in a similar vein. Instead of getting that mega second deal, he got traded. That's a correction. I think he's in a BETTER situation and he's blessed for that, but you know his agent let him know the reality. Screw this up and there's not only no way to get paid, but once labeled a "problem child", he restricts his options to earn in a very limited space. Moreover, he's acknowledged how important mentorship is. The reason this is a positive is that he's not someone who's bringing his gang past with him or severe emotional problems. He has some growing up to do, but we have the locker room to handle that. In a close game, if he's going to try and throw a tantrum, we have folks from Big Whit and AD to new vets like Talib and Suh who won't stand for that because all of them are about having fun, but business first.
3) With our D almost certain to give our O more snaps, I can't see OBJ taking issue with our offense. Heck, even while learning it and having our X receiver not fully know the playbook, we were averaging 32 points a game for most of the season. OBJ was objectively worth at least 5pts on average per game. I see no reason why that shouldn't continue. I mean, we KNOW OBJ has the best hands in the NFL and with Goff's progression, I get giddy thinking about how many drives continue because our receiving corps of OBJ, Woods and Kupp just aren't dropping hardly any balls.
4) OBJ can run the full route tree as well as anyone, perhaps better. Antonio Brown may be better after the catch, but OBJ has embarrassed some of the top CBs in the game. And that's with Eli at QB who isn't nearly as accurate as Goff and Goff's only getting better.
5) McVay could scheme this offense with OBJ to be a 40pt per game offense. That's the patterns talking. And that's not taking into account the improvement of our very young TEs. Rewatching some of last season in my head, Woods would absolutely be the #2. Considering that Woods was targeted by the #1 CB 3rd most of any WR in the league last year... that definitely opens things up for both Woods and Kupp who's getting the #3 CB most of the time. Kupp on the #3? It won't just be our defense feasting...
Here are the negatives about OBJ:
1) His prima donna behavior got out of control. You really have to wear out your welcome with the Maras in order for this to even be an option. Now, I cut the New York Football Giants NO SLACK in this, but OBJ has to take ownership of his behavior (like Talib, Peters and Suh have done).
2) He hasn't put team first. That's probably the biggest knock. Again, I dunno if the infrastructure wasn't there to develop that or even simply to prevent his careening behavior from going off the rails or what. But I know Snead and McVay won't bring him in if they aren't certain that he's a fit in that regard. We not Me is NOT an option. And no one can say he's been a team first guy up to this point.
3) He may simply be too expensive. Now, I dunno what he will do. He may come to LA, ball out and get broke off bigger than Watkins next season in the FA market. He may not have many other options because he knows his situation isn't going to be great and I have SERIOUS doubts that Pat Shurmer is going to relate any better to him than anyone has before. THIS RIGHT HERE is the genius of McVay. He's not just a super football genius, but he's fit, he's young and he relates to these players in a generationally different way even if the net isn't all that different. He's got that aura that super special people have. But if OBJ is insistent that he HAS to have a mega deal prior to playing, then we won't do it because the VIP line outside our club is already growing and the biggest VIP still has to get in.
Wrapup:
From a schematic and production point of view, with OBJ, I think we have the potential to average nearly 40pts per game and limit teams to less than 17. That's a 20+ point winning margin. I think we could be that good with a shutout or three and a few 50 burgers in the mix. McVay with that level of talent would be historic and it's awful hard to say no to that.
From a potential standpoint, this is the first group that I think could, even if for a season, be more dynamic and more devastating than the GSOT. That level of domination only happens with transcendent talent. OBJ and Woods gives us the Bruce and Holt with Kupp being a conflation of Az Hakim and Ricky Proehl. And the defense has the potential to be substantially better than the GSOT defense.
From a reality standpoint, none of it matters if OBJ was so freaked out by the injury that he simply won't move forward without guaranteed money, irrespective of his behavioral issues. Moreover, if he isn't willing to buy into the team mentality that McVay insists on (it seems like he is if that tweet about him "wanting in" is true"), then all of this is moot.
I think it not only could work out, but be historically good. That's my opinion based BOTH on my recognition of patterns AND this new spidey-sense thing which I don't understand at all to be honest.
We'll see how it goes.
Much of the reason Watkins wasn't focused nearly as much as he should have been is that he didn't know the playbook and it didn't get all that much better throughout the season.
I appreciate McVay's patience and I'm thrilled that Goff was so versed in the playbook that he was the one to correct Sammy and let him know if he was in the wrong position. That can't have instilled confidence that Sammy would be on time with the right route.
Here are the positives about OBJ (I'll get to the negatives in a moment):
1) Superlative talent. I think he's easily a top 3 receiver in the league and when targeted, he simply doesn't disappear. Moreover, if you look at exactly how much he improves an offense, it's undeniable. He truly saved Eli's career and I think one year without OBJ will have Eli retire. OBJ would put Goff close to 5k yards and 40TDs and that doesn't include all the damage opened up for Gurley... /shudder.
2) His behavior got out of control when two things happened a) he started feeling himself a little too much (please enjoy all the masturbation jokes offline) and b) the stunning lack of leadership including from ownership let him get away with untenable behaviors. I look at Peters in a similar vein. Instead of getting that mega second deal, he got traded. That's a correction. I think he's in a BETTER situation and he's blessed for that, but you know his agent let him know the reality. Screw this up and there's not only no way to get paid, but once labeled a "problem child", he restricts his options to earn in a very limited space. Moreover, he's acknowledged how important mentorship is. The reason this is a positive is that he's not someone who's bringing his gang past with him or severe emotional problems. He has some growing up to do, but we have the locker room to handle that. In a close game, if he's going to try and throw a tantrum, we have folks from Big Whit and AD to new vets like Talib and Suh who won't stand for that because all of them are about having fun, but business first.
3) With our D almost certain to give our O more snaps, I can't see OBJ taking issue with our offense. Heck, even while learning it and having our X receiver not fully know the playbook, we were averaging 32 points a game for most of the season. OBJ was objectively worth at least 5pts on average per game. I see no reason why that shouldn't continue. I mean, we KNOW OBJ has the best hands in the NFL and with Goff's progression, I get giddy thinking about how many drives continue because our receiving corps of OBJ, Woods and Kupp just aren't dropping hardly any balls.
4) OBJ can run the full route tree as well as anyone, perhaps better. Antonio Brown may be better after the catch, but OBJ has embarrassed some of the top CBs in the game. And that's with Eli at QB who isn't nearly as accurate as Goff and Goff's only getting better.
5) McVay could scheme this offense with OBJ to be a 40pt per game offense. That's the patterns talking. And that's not taking into account the improvement of our very young TEs. Rewatching some of last season in my head, Woods would absolutely be the #2. Considering that Woods was targeted by the #1 CB 3rd most of any WR in the league last year... that definitely opens things up for both Woods and Kupp who's getting the #3 CB most of the time. Kupp on the #3? It won't just be our defense feasting...
Here are the negatives about OBJ:
1) His prima donna behavior got out of control. You really have to wear out your welcome with the Maras in order for this to even be an option. Now, I cut the New York Football Giants NO SLACK in this, but OBJ has to take ownership of his behavior (like Talib, Peters and Suh have done).
2) He hasn't put team first. That's probably the biggest knock. Again, I dunno if the infrastructure wasn't there to develop that or even simply to prevent his careening behavior from going off the rails or what. But I know Snead and McVay won't bring him in if they aren't certain that he's a fit in that regard. We not Me is NOT an option. And no one can say he's been a team first guy up to this point.
3) He may simply be too expensive. Now, I dunno what he will do. He may come to LA, ball out and get broke off bigger than Watkins next season in the FA market. He may not have many other options because he knows his situation isn't going to be great and I have SERIOUS doubts that Pat Shurmer is going to relate any better to him than anyone has before. THIS RIGHT HERE is the genius of McVay. He's not just a super football genius, but he's fit, he's young and he relates to these players in a generationally different way even if the net isn't all that different. He's got that aura that super special people have. But if OBJ is insistent that he HAS to have a mega deal prior to playing, then we won't do it because the VIP line outside our club is already growing and the biggest VIP still has to get in.
Wrapup:
From a schematic and production point of view, with OBJ, I think we have the potential to average nearly 40pts per game and limit teams to less than 17. That's a 20+ point winning margin. I think we could be that good with a shutout or three and a few 50 burgers in the mix. McVay with that level of talent would be historic and it's awful hard to say no to that.
From a potential standpoint, this is the first group that I think could, even if for a season, be more dynamic and more devastating than the GSOT. That level of domination only happens with transcendent talent. OBJ and Woods gives us the Bruce and Holt with Kupp being a conflation of Az Hakim and Ricky Proehl. And the defense has the potential to be substantially better than the GSOT defense.
From a reality standpoint, none of it matters if OBJ was so freaked out by the injury that he simply won't move forward without guaranteed money, irrespective of his behavioral issues. Moreover, if he isn't willing to buy into the team mentality that McVay insists on (it seems like he is if that tweet about him "wanting in" is true"), then all of this is moot.
I think it not only could work out, but be historically good. That's my opinion based BOTH on my recognition of patterns AND this new spidey-sense thing which I don't understand at all to be honest.
We'll see how it goes.
Fine take out last year, which isn't being honest because people used that criticism when we traded for Sammy Watkins, he still misses 2 games a year. Sorry I'm not making a guy the highest paid WR in the league and giving up picks to get him when he's missed playing time in 2 of his first 3 years. He's had one year in four he's actually played 16 games. Again people criticized Watkins for missing time yet in 4 years he's played 52 games while OBJ has played in 47. That's an issue even if you don't want to acknowledge it.
I'll quote you and repeat what I just wrote to somebody else. People criticized Watkins for missing time yet in 4 years he's played 52 games while OBJ has played in 47. That's an issue even if you don't want to acknowledge it. Criticizing Sammy for being injury prone but not OBJ is just lying to yourself. Couple that with one of Sammy's games missed was last year week 17 when he was on the bench with all the other starters. Sammy has actually given his team 2 full years of 16 games where OBJ has only 1.
Apples and oranges comparison. We only had two 2nd year TE's on the roster in McVay's first year of course we were adding a TE considering how much he ran 2 TE sets in Washington. That pick was obvious. We had last year 2 very productive WR's and 4 young guys backing up those 2 and Watkins. We've lost 1 guy who was our 4th leading WR. We're talking about replacing one guy in a group of 7 who was our deep threat that caught fewer passes over 20 yards than Robert Woods, Cooper Kupp and Todd Gurley.
It's out there, I've linked it before and think it was a fangraphs stat or maybe a pff stat. I'm not going to dig it up again you're welcome to look.
When I take a deeper look at OBJ's behavior, I see something different.
I see a guy like Peters who had a small flame of arrogance allowed to be fanned into something out of control by himself and the organization. You KNOW this crap wouldn't have gotten out of control with Tom Coughlin, for example.
When I see how both McVay and Wade relate to their players...and that even AD respects and fears McVay a bit...that says all I need to know.
I don't think OBJ is destructive in the locker room like some outright cancers have been. I think he was allowed as a young person to run amok. That can be fixed.
OBJ under Fisher... HELL NO!!!
OBJ under McVay, Wade, Snead, our coaching staff and our current veterans? Totally. It's a pretty amazing fit, actually.
And I'm NOT one to shy away from saying no to a player that I don't think is a fit.
Also...I just got that feeling that this is gonna drag out and then we're going to get him around the draft... maybe a smidge before, more likely during and maybe a little afterward (say, if the Giants see a WR they really like at 23 or think they can take the 23, trade down and still get the WR they want).
That's just my take.
I not only like OBJ here, but I think he's coming.
I said the same thing about Talib and Suh, so I'd like to make it a turkey and get OBJ as well.
I got that lovin' feeling...
OBJ and Watkins aren't on the same planet skill or production wise.
OBJ is a difference maker. Watkins runs a limited route tree and struggled to grasp the offense.
We offered him something like $14M.
We're going to see with Mahomes that Watkins will make splash plays, but I'd bet that he definitely doesn't live up to the production required of that contract.
NO ONE has any doubt that OBJ will live up to pretty much any contract he signs.
It won't matter.
NO TEAM is going to mortgage the farm if the player is willing to hold out the full 10 games, then report into an offense he knows nothing about and maybe get 4 games before they're forced to either franchise him or let him walk.
That'd be a rental of 4 played games for what? 3 firsts PLUS???
That's beyond dumb. Not even the Jets would do that. Plus, OBJ would be a pariah to fans around the league for holding out after the team paid such a steep price.
Giants can ask for a team's full draft. It's not going to happen.
Beckham wants to get paid, but he's in the driver's seat.
If he wants LA and is willing to play out his rookie deal and then get crazy broke off by some team in 2019, then that's a plan. Plus, he'd have a healthy year of production and being a good citizen to let a team know he's worth franchise level money.
I've seen crazier things happen, but I just don't see it.
Because they're hoping someone like the Jets who've been spurned in FA will offer the moon.
Oh, and you can GUARANTEE no one's run this by OBJ because he'll simply refuse to sign and hold out until week 10.
Bet on that.
There's a video with him, smoking what looks like a blunt, and next to a scantily clad woman who is cutting white powder into lines. So yes, it is like the guy is getting into trouble for drugs.
Well, as has been pointed out more than once the cited $100 million cap figure does not include Donald. Or Gurley. Or Joyner. Or the 3 youngest starters on the OL. And various other players that have to be replaced or re-signed somehow. The cap space once you factor in that is not all that large.
Look fuckers I can understand wanting to have both of these it's just that I can't afford EITHER.
Same with OBJ, Von Miller, Khalil Mack and whoever else you want on the Rams...
This isn't baseball.
The 2019 cap number only incl
The 2019 cap number includes only 38 players under contract in that year, so shrink that number by more than just the big contracts for the stars.
InnovatedMind
NO MA'AM President
Mkay....might want to slow your roll a bit there.
(As an aside, IMHO, when it comes to injuries, I don't think the word "criticize" is quite the right word, regardless).
I was mainly taking exception to your assumption that "OBJ plays only 12 games a year."
[Hypothetically, consider a four year player that plays all 16 games his first three years and then misses all 16 games in his fourth. It would be misleading to say this player "averages 12 games per year." Even though 16 games were missed, spreading them out over four seasons implies that the player has chronic, recurring injuries-- rather than one major one.]
Admittedly, I don't follow OBJ that much. But a quick glance on the ol' internets shows me the following:
Freshman year at LSU: played full season
Sophomore year at LSU: played full season
Junior Year at LSU: played full season
Rookie year NYG: missed first four games with hamstring injury, then played next 12 (and had 91 catches for 1305 yards in just 12 games!)
Soph year NYG: healthy for all 16 games (missed one game due to disciplinary action.) 96 catches for 1450.
2016 year NYG: played all 16 games. 101 catches for 1367.
2017 year NYG: ankle injury, missed 12 games.
To me, if you look at the last seven years, OBJ was mostly healthy for six of the last seven years.
There are plenty of reasons personality-wise to be wary of OBJ. But as regards injury concerns, I think the main issue is to determine how his ankle has recovered from surgery. Prior to the ankle, OBJ has proven to be remarkably durable.
Neither Von Miller nor Khalil Mack are being actively shopped.
OBJ is in the exact same position as Peters was except WRs are valued more than CBs.
He has superlative talent and has balled out.
Has behaved poorly on the field and his antics have worn out his old school organization.
I see no reason with our current staff and vets that OBJ wouldn't fit here like hand in glove.
I think people look at these players like fantasy football.
I look at it based on how the people would function in relationship.
I think OBJ and Peters would be two people that come off completely differently under McVay.
That's how good he is.
Even entertaining OBJ isn't nearly as much about OBJ to me as it is further elevation of McVay as a wunderkind.
OBJ is in the exact same position as Peters was except WRs are valued more than CBs.
He has superlative talent and has balled out.
Has behaved poorly on the field and his antics have worn out his old school organization.
I see no reason with our current staff and vets that OBJ wouldn't fit here like hand in glove.
I think people look at these players like fantasy football.
I look at it based on how the people would function in relationship.
I think OBJ and Peters would be two people that come off completely differently under McVay.
That's how good he is.
Even entertaining OBJ isn't nearly as much about OBJ to me as it is further elevation of McVay as a wunderkind.