NFL and gambling

[Kupped]

Not without a whole lot of calls going their way, investigations finding they were indeed cheating and no consequences, or calls not being made like mugging receivers the entire game because they knew the calls would not be made.

Because BB knows what the Refs are calling and always pushes the envelop.

Yup… HE pushes the limits.

And playing down their success doesn’t really do much for this.

Steering the same team over and over would damage that model, not help it.

 

[LouisvilleRam]

Something super basic.

the only folks who'd have to be involved are those who call holding... the crew chief is typically the Ref...ump... I can never keep those straight...

Moreover, it doesn't have to be as blatant as "hey Ref, we're fixing this game"

All it needs to be is some really basic memo sent to the crew chief "as per the League outlines and a review of prior games, the NFL wants to emphasize that holding be called even if it happens away from the ball" or conversely, "as per the League outlines and a review of prior games, the NFL wants to ensure the flow of the game and emphasize those calls near the ball or that specifically affect the outcome of the play."

Pretty innocuous, but it sends the message.

Doesn't require all the refs to know, doesn't require some grand scheme... just a few people who know and communicating through open channels. Innocuous language can have secondary meanings that have been established in advance.

Doesn't require a "grand conspiracy"

Doesn't require a ton of people in the know

Doesn't require elaborate schema or spy level codes or secret communications

Exactly you always here holding can be called on every play so someone just calls it on a couple of 3rd downs when a team is driving the ball. I'm not saying this is happening but it would be easy to do.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Yeah… obviously it was fixed.

Not like BB and Brady turned out to be the two GOATs or something.

yes, they mastered the art of cheating and the refs have helped them all the way.

the nfl decided very early that brady was the chosen one. the guy they want to be the ultimate qb so they could parade him around for the next century on nfl films.

.

 

[blackbart]

Because BB knows what the Refs are calling and always pushes the envelop.

Yup… HE pushes the limits.

And playing down their success doesn’t really do much for this.

Steering the same team over and over would damage that model, not help it.

That’s just the most obvious example. If you do the same subtle tweaks over 255 games that would be a lot of money.

I hadn’t heard about the entertainment versus sport argument. Apparently they didn’t lose their anti-trust exemption either? So they are paying politicians too? We know they’re corrupt and will sell out to anyone.

 

[Mackeyser]

Sure it does…

Because it requires a decision making process up top.

Are you suggesting that Goodell could unilaterally make decisions like this without it being brought to light?

Who would bring it to light?

What incentive would they have?

Those who disbelieve create this straw man that the ONLY way this works is a Giant, Massive conspiracy where everyone has perfect and complete knowledge... which is ridiculous.

And whether it be Goodell or a team of his that looks at the various stories out there and that would be mindful of managing those such that the Super Bowl ends up being the most exciting game.

 

[Mackeyser]

Yeah… obviously it was fixed.

Not like BB and Brady turned out to be the two GOATs or something.

I suppose all that filming was legit, then?

 

[jacktheripper85]

Organized crime and gambling apps make their money on the vig. This “fixed” conversation is ridiculous. If you want to bitch about something then bitch about the fact that you only get paid $17 on a $20 winning bet and even then you are paying for a service so stop whining. Vegas or the mob doesn’t care who wins and point spreads constantly change up until when the game actually starts so unless refs are getting “secret” calls during the game how do they know how to “fix it”.

The whole point in “setting spreads “ is to have it where half the public picks one team and the other half the other as the money for the “house” is made on the vig.

As for the comments about the Super Bowl if the sentiment was that the game would be called for the Patriots then why didn’t the whole country bet them and put Vegas out of business-laughable.

 

[Kupped]

I suppose all that filming was legit, then?

Nope.

Explain the NFL conspiracy part?



Because… this is right out in the open.

Much like MLB not stripping the Astros.. I think the leagues just set a high bar for doing more than hand slaps,

 

[Kupped]

yes, they mastered the art of cheating and the refs have helped them all the way.

the nfl decided very early that brady was the chosen one. the guy they want to be the ultimate qb so they could parade him around for the next century on nfl films.

.

Yeah…


Because they would do that… yet not one Cowboys/Pats Super Bowl.. which, obviously, would be best case scenario.

 

[XXXIVwin]

Something super basic.

the only folks who'd have to be involved are those who call holding... the crew chief is typically the Ref...ump... I can never keep those straight...

Moreover, it doesn't have to be as blatant as "hey Ref, we're fixing this game"

All it needs to be is some really basic memo sent to the crew chief "as per the League outlines and a review of prior games, the NFL wants to emphasize that holding be called even if it happens away from the ball" or conversely, "as per the League outlines and a review of prior games, the NFL wants to ensure the flow of the game and emphasize those calls near the ball or that specifically affect the outcome of the play."

Pretty innocuous, but it sends the message.

Doesn't require all the refs to know, doesn't require some grand scheme... just a few people who know and communicating through open channels. Innocuous language can have secondary meanings that have been established in advance.

Doesn't require a "grand conspiracy"

Doesn't require a ton of people in the know

Doesn't require elaborate schema or spy level codes or secret communications

The NFL alters its "points of emphasis" regarding calls all the time. But the whole point is that the calls are meant to be called equally, regardless of the team.

The key point is deciding which team benefits unfairly over another team.

It's a big difference between "make more holding calls" and "make more holding calls against Team X."

You mentioned "secondary meanings that have been established in advance." That's the key part to make it plausible. Who establishes these secondary meanings, and with whom are these meanings explained?

I recall now this discussion from a few years ago, so at least I remember where you're coming from. Sounds like you think there's a lot of "wink and a nod" pressure on certain refs to call things certain ways.

All I could say is, the more overt and blatant the pressure, the more effective the "steering." But if the pressure is subtle, the steering would be less effective.

Cheers

 

[Kupped]

Who would bring it to light?

What incentive would they have?

Those who disbelieve create this straw man that the ONLY way this works is a Giant, Massive conspiracy where everyone has perfect and complete knowledge... which is ridiculous.

And whether it be Goodell or a team of his that looks at the various stories out there and that would be mindful of managing those such that the Super Bowl ends up being the most exciting game.

Lol… who would benefit in your scenario? Other than Goodell?

Because you certainly can’t believe that crews don’t discuss league memos, etc.. right?

 

[jacktheripper85]

yes, they mastered the art of cheating and the refs have helped them all the way.

the nfl decided very early that brady was the chosen one. the guy they want to be the ultimate qb so they could parade him around for the next century on nfl films.

.

So the NFL decided they were going to make a 6th round draft pick that no one ever heard of their “poster boy”.

Ok.

 

[Mackeyser]

That’s just the most obvious example. If you do the same subtle tweaks over 255 games that would be a lot of money.

I hadn’t heard about the entertainment versus sport argument. Apparently they didn’t lose their anti-trust exemption either? So they are paying politicians too? We know they’re corrupt and will sell out to anyone.

Couple of things.

the argument I'm making is that the NFL "steers" outcomes and they aren't always successful. Key injuries mean that they have to have multiple narratives and they have to be ready to go with the hot narrative. I don't think they steer all 256 games. If anything, I think the NFL tends to be hands off early in the season. Moreover, I think part of the "chaos" and upsets this season has been a deliberate effort to make the NFL look like it's got more parity even as more and more people are still showing plays that go against that.

But anyway, I think they really only get involved in a few games a year... some years more than others, but it's not as interactive as folks may think.

I truly believe they wanted Drew Brees to win in his final year, but he was almost literally the walking dead... 8 broken ribs, punctured lung and other mess wrong with him... he just couldn't go and the NFL focused elsewhere

As for the anti-trust issues, they can have exemptions while still being entertainment and they have less oversight for the most part, but there are certain things that they can't do that MLB can.

 

[Merlin]

I lost many friends and work associates in 9-11 and am repulsed by the notion that the “league” thought to having Patriots win a championship.
The whole line of thinking is so juvenile. Surely nobody in the NYC metro area were feeling that an NFL team represented patriotism. You know, where 3,000 folks perished on that day and afterwords.
I get it that conspiracy theories are fun for some, but they are extremely insulting to those affected.

Lighten up Francis. You aren't the only one who lost friends not only on 9-11 but in the war that followed. No need to get all nuclear in a discussion about football.

There was definitely a feel with that entire playoffs like the refs were favoring the Patriots. If you disagree that's cool but there's no need to get all snowflake and offended with your sensitivities about it.

 

[Mackeyser]

The point is that the NFL has ALREADY had long term cheating.

Already. So arguing that the NFL doesn't have cheating is a waste of time and delusional.

The NFL doesn't leave the Pats to destroy the tapes or remotely believe that they simply "recorded over the tape each time"... if it's all legit.

Let's be clear... no amount of incredulity is gonna change my mind on this... and there's far too much evidence of something happening it to be ignored.

I'm fine discussing it, but I really don't care to argue.

 

[jacktheripper85]

Couple of things.

the argument I'm making is that the NFL "steers" outcomes and they aren't always successful. Key injuries mean that they have to have multiple narratives and they have to be ready to go with the hot narrative. I don't think they steer all 256 games. If anything, I think the NFL tends to be hands off early in the season. Moreover, I think part of the "chaos" and upsets this season has been a deliberate effort to make the NFL look like it's got more parity even as more and more people are still showing plays that go against that.

But anyway, I think they really only get involved in a few games a year... some years more than others, but it's not as interactive as folks may think.

I truly believe they wanted Drew Brees to win in his final year, but he was almost literally the walking dead... 8 broken ribs, punctured lung and other mess wrong with him... he just couldn't go and the NFL focused elsewhere

As for the anti-trust issues, they can have exemptions while still being entertainment and they have less oversight for the most part, but there are certain things that they can't do that MLB can.The point is that the NFL has ALREADY had long term cheating.

Already. So arguing that the NFL doesn't have cheating is a waste of time and delusional.

The NFL doesn't leave the Pats to destroy the tapes or remotely believe that they simply "recorded over the tape each time"... if it's all legit.

Let's be clear... no amount of incredulity is gonna change my mind on this... and there's far too much evidence of something happening it to be ignored.

I'm fine discussing it, but I really don't care to argue.

if the NFL outlawed instantly replay you might have an argument.

 

[kurtfaulk]

So the NFL decided they were going to make a 6th round draft pick that no one ever heard of their “poster boy”.

Ok.

no, the incredible run of calls going his way and non calls going his way in the playoffs was mere chance. totally random. human error. he's just that good.

.

 

[Kupped]

Lighten up Francis. You aren't the only one who lost friends not only on 9-11 but in the war that followed. No need to get all nuclear in a discussion about football.

There was definitely a feel with that entire playoffs like the refs were favoring the Patriots. If you disagree that's cool but there's no need to get all snowflake and offended with your sensitivities about it.

Telling someone else how they should feel about something like that isn’t something I’d go that hard after.

To use your point… they can disagree.

The point is that the NFL has ALREADY had long term cheating.

Already. So arguing that the NFL doesn't have cheating is a waste of time and delusional.

The NFL doesn't leave the Pats to destroy the tapes or remotely believe that they simply "recorded over the tape each time"... if it's all legit.

Let's be clear... no amount of incredulity is gonna change my mind on this... and there's far too much evidence of something happening it to be ignored.

I'm fine discussing it, but I really don't care to argue.

“Let me be clear… no amount…”

And there we have it.

You feel that way, so that’s what happened.

And… to be clear…. There’s no such evidence to support your “ steering” argument, only conclusions you’re reaching to explain certain outcomes.

Any big picture assessment of the NFL as a global brand, with 32 teams with individual ownership groups and agendas, would see the kind of micromanaging of the product in a way that would GREATLY diminish its value as a product and viability as a bet as being counterproductive and.. possibly.. destructive.

As someone else said.. it’s a golden goose.

 

[Mackeyser]

Organized crime and gambling apps make their money on the vig. This “fixed” conversation is ridiculous. If you want to bitch about something then bitch about the fact that you only get paid $17 on a $20 winning bet and even then you are paying for a service so stop whining. Vegas or the mob doesn’t care who wins and point spreads constantly change up until when the game actually starts so unless refs are getting “secret” calls during the game how do they know how to “fix it”.

The whole point in “setting spreads “ is to have it where half the public picks one team and the other half the other as the money for the “house” is made on the vig.

As for the comments about the Super Bowl if the sentiment was that the game would be called for the Patriots then why didn’t the whole country bet them and put Vegas out of business-laughable.

You mean how the Patriots became the national game every week except for where it had to be shown by contract?

You mean how announcers and fans alike constantly posted things like "we're all Patriots now"?

You mean how the Pats were the beneficiary of calls especially after falling to 4-4?

Also, don't conflate the cheating coming from outside forces like 'Vegas' with the NFL maximizing the revenue from its biggest game by nursing the most popular narratives to maximize fan engagement.

As for why everyone didn't bet the Pats... they were seen as the underdog all the way and they don't win in a straight up contest. The NFL hadn't ever steered the outcome before and bettors were expecting their miracle run to end.

Ask a whale now and you can bet that THEY are paying attention to the "stories" and which the NFL chooses to elevate via it's own media arm and which they feed to outlets like ESPN.

 

[Kupped]

no, the incredible run of calls going his way and non calls going his way in the playoffs was mere chance. totally random. human error. he's just that good.

.

Yeah… no teams benefit from bad calls except for them.

He’s had a 20 year career.. so there are good chances he’ll see more of those over his career than others.

Tom’s performance last year?
What are we suggesting he benefited from?