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blue4

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St Louis has done everything possible to avoid letting thier citizens have a say by letting them put it to a vote. Is that because they know the MAJORITY will vote against using THIER money to build ANOTHER stadium?
Put it to a vote and be done with it. Majority rules, let the democratic process play out. I can live with whatever the majority of St. Louisians say. Majority rules, it's the American Way.


Putting it to the vote will take longer than the NFL will allow. Rich and powerful people manipulating the system to get what they want is far more the American way than majority rules. I'm of the opinion that as long as gerrymandering and special interest money allowed exists, there is no fair vote. It's a smokescreen.
 

iced

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And now we're seeing why Goldman Sachs may be willing to spend money to upgrade the stadium

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...rarily-moving-l-a-team-to-27000-seat-stadium/

NFL considers temporarily moving L.A. team to 27,000-seat stadium
Posted by Michael David Smith on June 26, 2015, 6:31 PM EDT
cd0ymzcznguwzdbhnduynddiytjhm2yyzthlmtjjotqwyyznptm5y2njmmixywnkzgu0zju3ytixotqwmtg5yjbmnjay.jpeg

In the search for a temporary home for a future Los Angeles franchise, the NFL may go small.Really small.

Among the stadiums under consideration if the NFL moves a team to Los Angeles next season is the StubHub Center in Carson, according to NFL.com. The StubHub Center, home of the L.A. Galaxy of Major League Soccer, seats 27,000 people.

That would mean the NFL’s Los Angeles team (whether it’s the Rams, Raiders or Chargers) would be playing in by far the smallest stadium in the NFL. The smallest current NFL seating capacity also belongs to a team in a temporary stadium, the Vikings, who are using the University of Minnesota’s TCF Bank Stadium while they get their own stadium built. But while TCF Bank Stadium is tiny by NFL standards, its capacity of 52,525 is nearly double that of the StubHub Center.

Other temporary stadiums under consideration are the Rose Bowl (where UCLA plays), the L.A. Coliseum (where USC plays) and Major League Baseball’s Dodger Stadium and Angel Stadium. All of those are much larger than the StubHub Center, but all of them might also have scheduling conflicts with an NFL team.

It seems hard to believe that the NFL would move into a stadium as tiny as the StubHub Center, even for one season. But at least they can be confident they’d sell out. That’s not the case in St. Louis, Oakland or San Diego.
 

blue4

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If someone isn't a St Louis resident, what does it matter how we get our financing, other than a perceived better chance of getting our team? Is there public outcry from anyone other than those who always oppose public money for sports teams? No. And even they are pretty silent. Ray Hartman is about it, and any St Louis resident knows he's kind of a crack pot sometimes on a number of issues. So, what difference does it make? It's not even a broad, everyone pays tax. As far as I can tell, even the county doesn't really have to pony up.
 

bluecoconuts

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Hard to have a vote on something that isn't completed - renders weren't made public and ready til earlier on this year. Which even they still had to go back and make changes too.

Working on doesn't mean they had everything laid out back then, and if they feel didn't need a public vote with the way its written, why add more obstacles?

They had years to get renders out, they didn't because they sat around playing politics. I don't by the "We didn't have time" excuse either, they had time, but they didn't want to. Having a vote that passed is a much better way of doing it, because it'll be a lot harder for the NFL to say no when there's obvious public support. Now the support they have to go off of is the market studies, which evidently isn't all that strong. It's easy for the NFL to say "Yeah they got financing checked off, but they were going through various loopholes, and the market studies weren't very strong, so we're not that confident with how it's all there, so we're allowing them to relocate." If they truly believe it is another thing, but it gives them a damn good excuse for allowing the Rams to leave.
 

iced

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They had years to get renders out, they didn't because they sat around playing politics.

Peacock and Blitz did not have years, and as I have said many times it's a shame they weren't involved were earlier in the process.
 

bluecoconuts

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And now we're seeing why Goldman Sachs may be willing to spend money to upgrade the stadium

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...rarily-moving-l-a-team-to-27000-seat-stadium/

NFL considers temporarily moving L.A. team to 27,000-seat stadium
Posted by Michael David Smith on June 26, 2015, 6:31 PM EDT
cd0ymzcznguwzdbhnduynddiytjhm2yyzthlmtjjotqwyyznptm5y2njmmixywnkzgu0zju3ytixotqwmtg5yjbmnjay.jpeg

In the search for a temporary home for a future Los Angeles franchise, the NFL may go small.Really small.

Among the stadiums under consideration if the NFL moves a team to Los Angeles next season is the StubHub Center in Carson, according to NFL.com. The StubHub Center, home of the L.A. Galaxy of Major League Soccer, seats 27,000 people.

That would mean the NFL’s Los Angeles team (whether it’s the Rams, Raiders or Chargers) would be playing in by far the smallest stadium in the NFL. The smallest current NFL seating capacity also belongs to a team in a temporary stadium, the Vikings, who are using the University of Minnesota’s TCF Bank Stadium while they get their own stadium built. But while TCF Bank Stadium is tiny by NFL standards, its capacity of 52,525 is nearly double that of the StubHub Center.

Other temporary stadiums under consideration are the Rose Bowl (where UCLA plays), the L.A. Coliseum (where USC plays) and Major League Baseball’s Dodger Stadium and Angel Stadium. All of those are much larger than the StubHub Center, but all of them might also have scheduling conflicts with an NFL team.

It seems hard to believe that the NFL would move into a stadium as tiny as the StubHub Center, even for one season. But at least they can be confident they’d sell out. That’s not the case in St. Louis, Oakland or San Diego.

I can't imagine a scenario where the NFL is happy with two teams sharing a 27,000 seat stadium for four years... I think they'd rather teams jump between stadiums before that happens.
 

bluecoconuts

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Peacock and Blitz did not have years, and as I have said many times it's a shame they weren't involved were earlier in the process.

No, but the city did, it's the city who were dragging their feat, not Peacock and Blitz. Even still, they had a year to hash things out, their first presentation was a solid start but it was a little underwhelming for 6+ months of work. I love what they've changed it into for the most part (not a fan of removing the docks, and I still don't like the video board shape), but that should have been more in line to what they presented in January in my opinion. It seems that the city was way too slow to react to what they should have seen coming 10 years ago, and definitely when they lost arbitration.
 

blue4

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No, but the city did, it's the city who were dragging their feat, not Peacock and Blitz. Even still, they had a year to hash things out, their first presentation was a solid start but it was a little underwhelming for 6+ months of work. I love what they've changed it into for the most part (not a fan of removing the docks, and I still don't like the video board shape), but that should have been more in line to what they presented in January in my opinion. It seems that the city was way too slow to react to what they should have seen coming 10 years ago, and definitely when they lost arbitration.


We gone over this a thousand times. There is no city in America that starts planning 10 years in advance for a stadium. Especially when the one they have would have been TEN YEARS OLD. There is what we would like to have happen, and then there is reality.
 

bluecoconuts

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We gone over this a thousand times. There is no city in America that starts planning 10 years in advance for a stadium. Especially when the one they have would have been TEN YEARS OLD. There is what we would like to have happen, and then there is reality.

As soon as the Rams waived the top 10 clause for 2005 the city had to know that they were either planning something to make the Dome top tier by 2015 or not. They can talk about the Dome only being 10 years old at the time, but they still knew it wasn't top tier. That means either they were a little cocky and thought that it just didn't matter, or were foolish and just didn't think about it. Both of those should have been answered after arbitration when it was clear that the Rams wanted things updated, so there's no excuse for the city not to have been working on things since 2013.
 

WillasDad

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I can't imagine a scenario where the NFL is happy with two teams sharing a 27,000 seat stadium for four years... I think they'd rather teams jump between stadiums before that happens.

Perhaps the reason they're looking at the StubHub center has little to do with trying to fill the stadium but more to do with trying to do right by Carson b/c of the b.s. they've had to deal with in trying to accommodate both the Chargers' and Raiders' last minute stadium plan, which has little chance of actually being built. Those guys did Alfred Robles and the city of Carson wrong.
 

MrMotes

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Perhaps the reason they're looking at the StubHub center has little to do with trying to fill the stadium but more to do with trying to do right by Carson b/c of the b.s. they've had to deal with in trying to accommodate both the Chargers' and Raiders' last minute stadium plan, which has little chance of actually being built. Those guys did Alfred Robles and the city of Carson wrong.

Interesting take, i hadn't thought of that...
 

iced

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No, but the city did, it's the city who were dragging their feat, not Peacock and Blitz. Even still, they had a year to hash things out, their first presentation was a solid start but it was a little underwhelming for 6+ months of work. I love what they've changed it into for the most part (not a fan of removing the docks, and I still don't like the video board shape), but that should have been more in line to what they presented in January in my opinion. It seems that the city was way too slow to react to what they should have seen coming 10 years ago, and definitely when they lost arbitration.

While agree with the Rams on the side on arbitration, I don't think they were able to address the main point - where they would play the interim...

and as i said, why its a shame they never had peacock and blitz ahead of time..

that's like knowing the poor drafts and coaching from devaney, zygmunt, linehan, etc. for all the horrible drafts slamming snead and fisher for the poor product on the field..

yea the history sucks - but last i checked they havent left yet, and the relocation guidelines still apply..

i really can't wait to see how this plays out and the domino effect its going to have - essentially you're arguing that if the city didn't meet the NFL stadium criteria on the first try they're free to leave no matter what changes a city comes up with..

If it happens, watch that argument be used
 
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blue4

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As soon as the Rams waived the top 10 clause for 2005 the city had to know that they were either planning something to make the Dome top tier by 2015 or not. They can talk about the Dome only being 10 years old at the time, but they still knew it wasn't top tier. That means either they were a little cocky and thought that it just didn't matter, or were foolish and just didn't think about it. Both of those should have been answered after arbitration when it was clear that the Rams wanted things updated, so there's no excuse for the city not to have been working on things since 2013.


It's come out that the city had people starting the process long before it was reported. The consensus seems to be about a year earlier, so that would have been early 2014. That's not exactly shabby for a project this size with no input at all from the team. It's funny, all these other cities were full of infighting when building their stadiums, but St Louis has the misfortune of having a multi billionaire who can afford to build his own stadium and we get typecast as the bumbling Midwest city who can't get it done on time.
 

iced

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It's come out that the city had people starting the process long before it was reported. The consensus seems to be about a year earlier, so that would have been early 2014. That's not exactly shabby for a project this size with no input at all from the team. It's funny, all these other cities were full of infighting when building their stadiums, but St Louis has the misfortune of having a multi billionaire who can afford to build his own stadium and we get typecast as the bumbling Midwest city who can't get it done on time.

and whats often going unnoticed is that unlike the other cities, he hasn't been willing to negotiate or come to table. When you look at Spanos and davis who have made it a continual effort to meet with the task force, it's not quite as crytal clear when people in hindsight say "Well they should have done this a year ago when they started it"
 

The Ripper

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While agree with the Rams on the side on arbitration, I don't think they were able to address the main point - where they would play the interim...

and as i said, why its a shame they never had peacock and blitz ahead of time..

that's like knowing the poor drafts and coaching from devaney, zygmunt, linehan, etc. for all the horrible drafts slamming snead and fisher for the poor product on the field..

yea the history sucks - but last i checked they havent left yet, and the relocation guidelines still apply..

i really can't wait to see how this plays out and the domino effect its going to have - essentially you're arguing that if the city didn't meet the NFL stadium criteria on the first try they're free to leave no matter what changes a city comes up with..

If it happens, watch that argument be used

Pretty much the same relocation guidelines that allowed the Rams, Browns and Oilers to relocate.
 

bubbaramfan

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The Stub Hub seating of 27,000 is for soccer matches. In football configuration, an additional 12,000 temporary seats can be installed. this was done when the Chargers had pre-season games here when it was called the"Home Depot Center". (Bleachers in the end zones and club seating on the field). Trying to get a print-out put up so you can see soccer seating vs football seating. Football field isn't as big as a soccer field. they could put up 40,000 for a football game. Still small, but if you were only needing it for a year or two.....
 

iced

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Pretty much the same relocation guidelines that allowed the Rams, Browns and Oilers to relocate.

20 years ago -

the same guidelines they're going to apply to oakland and san diego? I mean this important for those who put stock in Roggin's "connections" or "opinion"

Still can't wait to see what happens if the financing comes through and the NFL allows a move.. a finger to St.Louis twice in 25 years especially with that much public money on the table?

Lol good luck with future public funding

wouldn't be a shock at all to see future owners have to negotiate less or none at all...particularly those in smaller markets
 

The Ripper

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20 years ago -

the same guidelines they're going to apply to oakland and san diego? I mean this important for those who put stock in Roggin's "connections" or "opinion"

Still can't wait to see what happens if the financing comes through and the NFL allows a move.. a finger to St.Louis twice in 25 years especially with that much public money on the table.

Makes no difference if the long term revenues aren't there. SD has more public money and Raiders have a viable NFL stadium in there home market so it will come down to the non-guaranteed revenues
 

ramfan46

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I think the temp site will be the Rose Bowl. With parking on the golf courses they provide a great tailgating experience in a much more pleasant neighborhood than the Coliseum. Also the Rose Bowl has been undergoing improvements for a couple of years now and they just cleared a local law suite that now allows them to be a NFL temporary site. I've been to a bunch of UCLA games and it would be the ideal location for 2 years. With so many transplants I would expect the visiting team to have a decent amount of fans show up to help fill the 90,000. No coincidence to me that the blackout rules were nixed.
 

RamBill

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Official: Rose Bowl will consider use of stadium as temporary home for NFL team
By Vincent Bonsignore, Los Angeles Daily News

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/201...use-of-stadium-as-temporary-home-for-nfl-team

A Rose Bowl official confirmed Friday that it has been contacted by the NFL about the possibility of the stadium’s potential use as temporary home for a team or teams if one or more were relocated here for the 2016 season.

It marks the first time the league has officially reached out to any Southern California venue and is a clear sign that the league is on the verge of returning to Los Angeles soon.

“We will examine it, analyze it and then determine whether it’s something we will respond to or submit a proposal for,” said Rose Bowl CEO Darryl Dunn.

The league has also inquired about the use of the Los Angeles Coliseum, according to two NFL sources.

The NFL is contemplating two Los Angeles area sites for eventual permanent relocation — the Oakland Raiders and San Diego Chargers sponsored Carson project and St. Louis Rams’ owner Stan Kroenke backed Inglewood — and with the league determined to make a decision by the end of 2015 or in early 2016 on who will move here and what site they will play at, it would be necessary to find temporary homes while the new stadiums are being constructed.

As first reported by the Los Angeles News Group on Monday, the league began the process this week to gauge interest if local stadiums would be interested in serving as a temporary home.

Dodger Stadium and the StubHub Center in Carson will likely be considered.

But before any decision is made there are still a number of issues that need to be addressed.

All of which sets up a fascinating scene next month in Chicago when all 32 owners gather to hear the latest on what’s going on in each team’s local market and get updates on the Rams’ Inglewood stadium project and the Raiders’ and Chargers’ Carson proposal.

So what should we be focused on moving forward?

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

• Does the NFL proceed to negotiate interim facilities leases in Los Angeles?

The league officially reach out to Los Angeles venues this week or next to begin assessing temporary homes while either the Inglewood or Carson stadiums are being built. The Rose Bowl, Coliseum, Dodgers Stadium and StubHub Center are among the sites being considered, and if the NFL moves ahead and leases are signed, then this is a huge signal that activity in L.A. is likely. Last year, for instance, there was no organized effort to find interim facilities.

• Do the owners establish a new, more expedited schedule at the Aug. 11 meeting?

Obviously, there are great expectations in Los Angeles leading into the special owners meeting in Chicago. Not just among fans, but the Chargers, Raiders and Rams, one or two of whom might soon be setting up shop in the second-biggest market in the county. By moving up the current Jan. 1 window for relocation — as has been discussed — the league will be signaling an obvious desire to speed up the process and reach a decision on who will be relocating to Los Angeles and where they will play by the end of the year.

If so, that will be consistent with the view that for a team or teams to be successful in L.A., they need to get started before the late March 2016 annual owners meeting vote.

On the other hand, if the NFL keeps the Jan. 1 relocation window intact, and the March 2016 owners vote intact, that signals they are not absolutely decided on a move to L.A. in 2016.

• What does St. Louis/State of Missouri do?

If St. Louis comes through with a viable stadium plan, and the Rams hopes to relocate to Los Angeles are stalled as a result, it could change the dynamics moving forward. For instance, what if the NFL then tells the Chargers and Raiders that, with the Rams no longer a threat to move to Los Angeles, we urge you to take another year to try to work things out in your home markets?

Thus putting off relocation until 2017.

That scenario seems highly unlikely, but certainly not inconceivable.

• Will San Diego and Oakland deliver stadium plans in time?

Assuming Rams owner Stan Kroenke pulls the trigger on relocation to Los Angeles — regardless of what’s going on in St. Louis — the Chargers and Raiders have little choice but to do the same.

Which means San Diego and Oakland have their work cut out for them over the next few months delivering viable plans in time to keep their teams.

San Diego officials have reached out directly to the NFL about plans to help build the Chargers a new home on the Mission Valley land where their current home sits. The city faces a huge deadline completing an environmental impact report by Aug. 3, which is when the document has to be completed and submitted for public comment.

At that point, a 45-day window opens for public comment, and once that window closes the city is proposing to take 13 days to incorporate the public comments into the document.

Technically there is enough time to complete the written report, but expediting the process comes with huge risk.

With time of such an essence, and San Diego getting such a late start on the process, everything is on fast forward. And while the city isn’t skipping any elements, it’s clearly squeezing what is normally a much longer process into a decidedly smaller window. The risk, of course, is it won’t hold up to public and legal scrutiny and the entire process gets stalled in court.

And even if the EIR passes muster — as hoped — a public vote on any agreed upon stadium plan between the Chargers and San Diego won’t happen until late January.

• Can the Chargers afford to wait out the uncertainty of a vote — and perhaps lose Los Angeles as a result?

Unless the NFL delays the process, that seems risky.

Similar uncertainty exists for the Raiders.

The good news is, Oakland city officials finally have their hands on a preliminary financing plan for a new Raiders stadium.

The bad news is, a ton of questions remain.

According to the San Jose Mercury News, the financing plan, one of several reports submitted Monday by San Diego-based businessman Floyd Kephart, is bound by a confidentiality agreement and has not yet been released.

As the Mercury News explains, Kephart has until Aug. 21 to provide a final stadium proposal, but top city officials and Raiders owner Mark Davis have described the preliminary financing plan as a potential make-or-break moment in the long-running effort to transform the sprawling 120-acre Coliseum site into a privately-developed urban center with sports facilities, apartment buildings, offices, shops and a hotel.

A number of issues stand in the way as it relates to the Raiders and NFL needing assurances this plan will work. As the Mercury News points out, with the Raiders and the NFL offering $500 million, Kephart must come up with a proposal to fully finance stadium construction without an outright public subsidy. Funding mechanisms used for other stadiums have included hotel tax surcharges, ticket surcharges, and stadium parking surcharges.

Complicating the situation is Oakland A’s owner Lew Wolff has said he doesn’t want to be neighbors with the Raiders in the proposed development. So Oakland officials could be deciding on whether to appease the A’s or the Raiders.

In addition to the stadium financing plan, Kephart told the Mercury News he also submitted required reports Monday on the feasibility of the housing and commercial components of the project, along with proposals on dealing with the nearly $100 million of debt remaining on the Coliseum and public financing of needed infrastructure improvements expected to cost about $150 million.

If public officials don’t like the plan, writes the Mercury News, they can opt not to renew their agreement with Kephart, who has claimed to have hedge fund connections, to finance the project when it expires in August.

With the NFL demanding quick results, stadium experts said Oakland will have to keep working on a Raiders deal even though it could hinder its chances of getting a new baseball stadium built.

The hope is they can pull it off.

But with NFL owners meeting again in August, and chances looking good an expedited Los Angeles process might come out of the meeting, Oakland is running out of time.
 
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