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iced

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http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_85ff570a-10a5-5353-8f35-751cbe3857ac.html

Judge hears public vote arguments on St. Louis NFL stadium funding

ST. LOUIS •
Attorneys argued in court Thursday that the Edward Jones Dome could build its replacement stadium nearly anywhere — in Fenton, for example, 20 miles away — and still call it “adjacent” to the downtown dome.

The public board that runs the Dome gets to draw the boundaries of the stadium complex, attorneys said.

The argument — one piece of a 3½-hour hearing — is a central point in the fight to build a new football stadium here.

The Dome authority filed suit against the city in April, challenging a 2002 city ordinance requiring a public vote before spending tax money on a new stadium.

On Thursday, Circuit Court Judge Thomas Frawley heard opening and closing arguments in the case. He drilled Dome attorneys on the use of the city’s hotel-motel tax to pay down the Jones Dome debt. He quizzed City Counselor Winston Calvert on the “vagueness” of the public vote ordinance.

And, while Frawley didn’t rule on any of the issues in front of him, he told attorneys representing a group of citizens, more than once, that they couldn’t intervene in the case simply because they’re city taxpayers.

Attorneys said after the hearing that they didn’t know when to expect a ruling, though several said they expected it to come quickly.

Proponents of a new stadium hope it does. Gov. Jay Nixon’s two-man stadium task force is relying on the city to pay for some of the bonds needed to build the proposed $985 million open-air, riverfront arena. If Frawley rules that city residents must vote before that money can be spent, the city and task force will have to scramble to get the measure on the ballot.


And if residents vote it down, most expect the National Football League to greenlight St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke’s move to Los Angeles.

Frawley didn’t express his opinions at Thursday’s hearing. But his lines of questioning made some of his interests clear:

He dug into the funding sources for the existing Jones Dome. Bob Blitz, Dome attorney and a member of Nixon’s task force, said the city’s portion of stadium funding is covered by a hotel-motel tax. City residents, he said, already voted on the issue when they approved that tax.

The city’s public vote ordinance, he argued, contradicts state law and the city’s own charter.

And state law, he said, trumps city law. “Stadium financing is a matter of statewide impact and concern,” Blitz told the court.

Blitz said he might have to present the riverfront stadium plan to NFL owners as early as August. How will the NFL know the plan is reliable, he asked, if the ordinance says a public vote is required but state law and the city’s charter gives legislative authority to the Board of Aldermen?

This uncertainty, Blitz said, will do continuing damage to the stadium effort until the court rules.

Calvert, the city counselor, countered quickly — his argument took about 10 minutes — that the city’s ordinance does not conflict with state law.

But Frawley drilled him on the meaning of several words in the ordinance.

What governing body is referenced in the ordinance? What financing plan has to be presented to voters? Can aldermen reverse the ordinance? What if a fire truck shows up at the stadium? Isn’t that, Frawley asked, “indirect financial assistance,” forbidden by the city ordinance without a public vote?

Calvert said the ordinance refers to financial assistance toward building a new stadium, not operating one. But he acknowledged that the law is at times difficult to interpret.

The smoothest part of the hearing came over the adjacency issue. Calvert had added the argument to the case in briefs earlier this month.

The state law that allowed for the building of the Jones Dome — and is being used to authorize construction of a new stadium — required the dome to be located “adjacent to an existing convention facility,” the law says. But the proposed new stadium, Calvert argued in the briefs, is “located on the other side of a road” from the America’s Center and Jones Dome, where the city currently hosts conventions.

But Chris Bauman, an attorney at Blitz’s firm, picked apart that logic on Thursday in his presentation to the judge.

The stadium itself doesn’t have to be adjacent to the Jones Dome, Bauman said — the stadium “complex” does. And that includes parking lots, which, he noted, are right across the street from the Dome.

And “adjacent” doesn’t necessarily mean “adjoining,” he continued. It can mean “near” instead of “touching.”

Finally, he showed the judge on a map, the Dome authority owns a plaza directly across from the Dome itself. That plaza, Bauman said, is envisioned to connect to the new stadium by an over-highway path, making it part of the new stadium “complex.”

Therefore, he argued, the new stadium is indeed adjacent to the old.

So could you build it in Fenton, asked Frawley, and draw the complex boundaries to fit the definition of adjacent? Yes, answered Bauman.

In fact, Bauman added, every building the Dome authority builds has to be multi-purpose, by law. So is its own convention center, he said.

Calvert spent less than five minutes rebutting. “The statute just does not contemplate building a stadium that is not next to the convention center,” he concluded.

Frawley asked relatively few questions.

The court spent the last hour hearing the pleas of St. Louis University law professor and legal clinic supervisor John Ammann to allow three city residents to intervene in the case. Ammann expressed concerns that city counselors would not adequately defend the ordinance. Mayor Francis Slay has said repeatedly that he supports the proposed stadium.

Frawley offered little sympathy, but did not turn Ammann down on the spot.
 

OldSchool

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I learned from this day in court that the house a half a mile down the street is adjacent to mine. It was made by the same developer, is the same color, it's connected by a city constructed side walk and I drew a little map of my neighborhood and circled around the houses to include this house a half a mile away as being adjacent to mine. :LOL:

The things you learn when lawyers run wild.
 

Irish

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I learned from this day in court that the house a half a mile down the street is adjacent to mine. It was made by the same developer, is the same color, it's connected by a city constructed side walk and I drew a little map of my neighborhood and circled around the houses to include this house a half a mile away as being adjacent to mine. :LOL:

The things you learn when lawyers run wild.

Was your house erected by the builders/owners of the site/authority that it is a multi use domicile, holding multiple events not just living 365 days a year, and all of the surrounding homes built by that same builder/owners of the site/authority are also multi use domiciles, holding multiple events not just living 365 days a year, and are in fact part of a larger entertainment and multi-functional development using tax payer dollars?

Not quite apples to apples, hombre :rolleyes:
 

OldSchool

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Was your house erected by the builders/owners of the site/authority that it is a multi use domicile, holding multiple events not just living 365 days a year, and all of the surrounding homes built by that same builder/owners of the site/authority are also multi use domiciles, holding multiple events not just living 365 days a year, and are in fact part of a larger entertainment and multi-functional development using tax payer dollars?

Not quite apples to apples, hombre :rolleyes:

Spin it however you need to so you can sleep better at night :D
 

OldSchool

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If the judge rules in favor of the Dome Authority, I know I will sleep like a baby. :sleep::sleep::sleep:(y)(y)

Which is what's funny to a lot of people, if the judge came down with a ruling and bent the meaning of a word like is being proposed here for adjacent, and it caused St Louis to lose the Rams the howls of anger and tears would be heard in Hawaii. It's unfortunate that any stadium in any city can't be done in an honest and straight forward way. Let the people vote how their tax money is being spent and let them have a voice. But so far we see three home cities all trying to avoid as much public input as possible.
 

Rmfnlt

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Which is what's funny to a lot of people, if the judge came down with a ruling and bent the meaning of a word like is being proposed here for adjacent, and it caused St Louis to lose the Rams the howls of anger and tears would be heard in Hawaii. It's unfortunate that any stadium in any city can't be done in an honest and straight forward way. Let the people vote how their tax money is being spent and let them have a voice. But so far we see three home cities all trying to avoid as much public input as possible.
Yup... Inglewood, Carson, St. Louis... they're all trying to fast track their projects.

That's politics... whether St. Louis, New York or L. A.
 

bubbaramfan

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St Louis has done everything possible to avoid letting thier citizens have a say by letting them put it to a vote. Is that because they know the MAJORITY will vote against using THIER money to build ANOTHER stadium?
Put it to a vote and be done with it. Majority rules, let the democratic process play out. I can live with whatever the majority of St. Louisians say. Majority rules, it's the American Way.
 

The Ripper

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Yup... Inglewood, Carson, St. Louis... they're all trying to fast track their projects.

That's politics... whether St. Louis, New York or L. A.

Not a knock on St Louis and SD but at least Inglewood and Carson had a petition that showed support. Inglewood had more signatures than had voted for Butts in the last election for mayor. It's the NFL that's pushing the home markets to circumvent the procedures that would occur normally.
 

ChrisW

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St Louis has done everything possible to avoid letting thier citizens have a say by letting them put it to a vote. Is that because they know the MAJORITY will vote against using THIER money to build ANOTHER stadium?
Put it to a vote and be done with it. Majority rules, let the democratic process play out. I can live with whatever the majority of St. Louisians say. Majority rules, it's the American Way.

Have you been paying attention to where the money is coming from? It's a Hotel/Motel tax. There won't be a tax on the citizens of the state, unless they use those things that are for tourism.

Well the above isn't totally true. The State pays their portion from the general fund. The county and city pay their portion with the Hotel/Motel tax. Are you a St. Louis county or city citizen?
 

The Ripper

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Have you been paying attention to where the money is coming from? It's a Hotel/Motel tax. There won't be a tax on the citizens of the state, unless they use those things that are for tourism.

Well the above isn't totally true. The State pays their portion from the general fund. The county and city pay their portion with the Hotel/Motel tax. Are you a St. Louis county or city citizen?

All tax dollars no matter where they came from are tax dollars of the citizens of the state, city or county but at least they're using them to benefit the city as opposed to wasting them.
 

ChrisW

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All tax dollars no matter where they came from are tax dollars of the citizens of the state, city or county but at least they're using them to benefit the city as opposed to wasting them.

That's true. But, when the dome is paid off, the city and county lose those tax dollars. It's not like they can be used for anything else. Their only benefit is to pay for the dome. So people arguing about new taxes don't really have any idea how the financing works, and should really read about it before they voice their opinion. Or at least ask for clarification.
 

Rmfnlt

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So people arguing about new taxes don't really have any idea how the financing works, and should really read about it before they voice their opinion.

And that's why you don't put the decision in the hands of the people! (j/k... kind of)
 

OldSchool

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Have you been paying attention to where the money is coming from? It's a Hotel/Motel tax. There won't be a tax on the citizens of the state, unless they use those things that are for tourism.

Well the above isn't totally true. The State pays their portion from the general fund. The county and city pay their portion with the Hotel/Motel tax. Are you a St. Louis county or city citizen?

If the tax money isn't spent on a stadium it would go to the general fund and be able to be used for the citizens. So while the money for the most part isn't coming from the citizens it is tax money collected and could be spent in other ways therefore the citizens should have a say in its use. Living in a region that lives off of tourism revenue this is a debate I'm familiar with it.
 

iced

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Which is what's funny to a lot of people, if the judge came down with a ruling and bent the meaning of a word like is being proposed here for adjacent, and it caused St Louis to lose the Rams the howls of anger and tears would be heard in Hawaii. It's unfortunate that any stadium in any city can't be done in an honest and straight forward way. Let the people vote how their tax money is being spent and let them have a voice. But so far we see three home cities all trying to avoid as much public input as possible.

Maybe its just me but I for one have been with the state of mind if St.Louis doesn't come through with the financing then the Rams will leave.

Will it suck? Absolutely. Did they at least try? yep.

however if it comes through and if they still leave or try to, completely different can of worms
 

ChrisW

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If the tax money isn't spent on a stadium it would go to the general fund and be able to be used for the citizens. So while the money for the most part isn't coming from the citizens it is tax money collected and could be spent in other ways therefore the citizens should have a say in its use. Living in a region that lives off of tourism revenue this is a debate I'm familiar with it.

Revitalizing that part of downtown STL isn't worth the 6 mil a year to you? STL is the biggest form of income in the state, you would think you'd want to strengthen the city as much as possible.

Then we throw in the abysmally low turnout for special elections, and you'd have such a small turnout that less than half of the people get their say. Maybe Rams fans can take over the election and push it over the edge.
 

dbrooks25

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St Louis has done everything possible to avoid letting thier citizens have a say by letting them put it to a vote. Is that because they know the MAJORITY will vote against using THIER money to build ANOTHER stadium?
Put it to a vote and be done with it. Majority rules, let the democratic process play out. I can live with whatever the majority of St. Louisians say. Majority rules, it's the American Way.
NOPE, that's not why. Nixon and Co. want to have the financing wrapped up as fast as possible and instead of scrambling to put it to a vote, he wants to extend the bonds, which is something that was voted on by the people long ago (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Are you a St. Louisan?
 
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