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dbrooks25

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I really don't care about how it gets done in Stl as long as it gets done. From reading local articles, listening to local stations, and talking to the locals the feel around St. Louis is the vast majority either want or don't mind the stadium being built. If Nixon and the task force want to extend the bonds without a vote, I don't give a shit and from what I have read the past few months, the majority of folks who will not be happy reside on the left coast.

When the judge rule, this back and forth about letting the people vote and whatever else should be put to rest.
 

The Ripper

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NOPE, that's not why. Nixon and Co. want to have the financing wrapped up as fast as possible and instead of scrambling to put it to a vote, he wants to extend the bonds, which is something that was voted on by the people long ago (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Are you a St. Louisan?

Extending of bonds isn't something that was voted on. In the statute that set up the STLRSA, the authority was given the power to extend the bonds. Extending them for a new project is not typically done. It's usually done to renovate the existing project or lower payments.

This is speculation. The NFL may be satisfied on the financing if Nixon is allowed to extend the bonds. The issues is the underwriting side which may end up being more difficult than the lawsuits so I think in the end they might just issue new bonds and follow the process as intended. Goldman won't be able to underwrite the bonds because they have already advised the state.
 

dbrooks25

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Extending of bonds isn't something that was voted on. In the statute that set up the STLRSA, the authority was given the power to extend the bonds. Extending them for a new project is not typically done. It's usually done to renovate the existing project or lower payments.

This is speculation. The NFL may be satisfied on the financing if Nixon is allowed to extend the bonds. The issues is the underwriting side which may end up being more difficult than the lawsuits so I think in the end they might just issue new bonds and follow the process as intended. Goldman won't be able to underwrite the bonds because they have already advised the state.
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. It is still my understanding that Nixon wanting to extend the bonds without a vote is more of a time thing and not the fear that the voters won't approve.
 

ChrisW

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Extending of bonds isn't something that was voted on. In the statute that set up the STLRSA, the authority was given the power to extend the bonds. Extending them for a new project is not typically done. It's usually done to renovate the existing project or lower payments.

This is speculation. The NFL may be satisfied on the financing if Nixon is allowed to extend the bonds. The issues is the underwriting side which may end up being more difficult than the lawsuits so I think in the end they might just issue new bonds and follow the process as intended. Goldman won't be able to underwrite the bonds because they have already advised the state.

Goldman Sachs is the underwriting the bonds, I think. They are either advising or underwriting, but I know they can't do both. But they've said everything is gravy.

Another point to extending the bonds. The bonds can be extended, but cannot go past 50 years.
 

iced

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The issue with the vote I think is timing - it would delay it, which in turn the delay could kill the chances of keeping of the team.
 

bluecoconuts

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Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. It is still my understanding that Nixon wanting to extend the bonds without a vote is more of a time thing and not the fear that the voters won't approve.

Probably a little of collumn A, and a little of collumn B. Votes are an uncertainty, and there wasn't total overwhelming support, especially when you extended out past the city. If only the city was responsible, I think a vote would have been more likely, but with the state involved as well, thats where question marks come up
 

RamFan503

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Revitalizing that part of downtown STL isn't worth the 6 mil a year to you? STL is the biggest form of income in the state, you would think you'd want to strengthen the city as much as possible.

Then we throw in the abysmally low turnout for special elections, and you'd have such a small turnout that less than half of the people get their say. Maybe Rams fans can take over the election and push it over the edge.
The revitalization, I would think, would be very popular to the city residents and probably the state itself. That kind of thing is still generally voted on in most areas. I can certainly see those in favor of the Rams staying would want the extension. It just appears that it is really stretching the intent of the bond issue because it is now extremely time sensitive.

I have been involved in many elections. The elections you want to target for getting your issue passed are specifically the low voter turn out elections. This thing about it being difficult because of it being a low turn out, special election is a pure fabrication.

We actually passed an initiative that stated that taxes and bonds could NOT be put on anything but the general elections where voter turn-out was higher. The reason being was that every gov't entity and special interest new that they could get their tax measures passed much more easily and less expensively in those elections where they only needed to marshal a modicum of support to go out and vote for their issue in order to pass it.

As you in St Louis do not have such a law in place, the stadium proponents could have gone the special election route when they had time - and they did - and at least been able to show public support through a vote.

I want the stadium built too but I think the way the funding is being devised is plain slimy.

NOPE, that's not why. Nixon and Co. want to have the financing wrapped up as fast as possible and instead of scrambling to put it to a vote, he wants to extend the bonds, which is something that was voted on by the people long ago (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Are you a St. Louisan?
So when you voted on the Dome, you were thinking, "and if they need another stadium they can just use this same money."? I'm not saying you wouldn't be ok with it. I just highly doubt anyone who voted for building the Dome had any thoughts of building another stadium through extending those same bonds.

When the judge rule, this back and forth about letting the people vote and whatever else should be put to rest.
Except that there are two more cases to be ruled upon. There is a counter suit relating to this suit and the suit being pressed by the state senate. So while it would be nice to have the issue behind us, I don't believe it will be for a while yet.

The issue with the vote I think is timing - it would delay it, which in turn the delay could kill the chances of keeping of the team.
At this point, it seems you may be correct. However, they could have had a special election by now if they wanted to go that route. They are using the timing excuse now but IMO that is BS as the excuse was only made valid by not doing it earlier in the process.
 

RamFan503

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BTW - when the new ballpark for the Cards was built, who is in charge of that project? Is it also the stadium authority?
 

iced

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At this point, it seems you may be correct. However, they could have had a special election by now if they wanted to go that route. They are using the timing excuse now but IMO that is BS as the excuse was only made valid by not doing it earlier in the process.

Entirely depends on when the vote could be held and presented. Look at San Diego as an example - for months they've said it wouldn't be able to put to a vote until December, and even that timeline is too late.

And also with the way Law is written, I don't think there's a reason to assume they would have needed it.
 

RamFan503

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And also with the way Law is written, I don't think there's a reason to assume they would have needed it.
If that is truly their rationale then I would personally like them to stop using the "no time" excuse. Because much like Fabiani asserts with the SD proposal, if they had done it earlier, they would have had the time.

Sorry but they are trying to say out of one side of their face that they have been working on this for more than a year and then out of the other side that the reason they didn't put it up for a vote was because they had no time to do it. I just hate the duplicity.

Stick with the bond being legally extendable and don't act like you would have liked to put it to a vote because you didn't try.
 

RamFan503

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All I could find was " the Cardinals entered into an agreement with the City of St. Louis to have a stake in the completion of the development." And a mention of a developer that is Cordish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Ballpark_Village
Looks like mostly private $. The stadium appears to be owned by the Cardinals and the city and state kicked in infrastructure and land. Appears that bonds weren't really much of an issue with Busch III.
 

bubbaramfan

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How did the bonds to finance the ED Jones get put in place? By the voters. And they were voting for one stadium, not two. Now the city wants another stadium, but this time voters don't get a say? Hotel/Motel tax? So why do they keep saying they want to extend the original bonds (that were voter approved) to cover another stadium?
Looks like they're changing the rules. You can vote for bonds for the first stadium, but you can't vote to extend them to build another one. I'm for the democratic process, and the citizens should have a say on where their money is spent.
And no, I'm not a citizen of St. Louis, I'm a citizen of Carson, so you know what pony I have in this race. And I'm as sick of the BS being fed the public here as I am of the BS getting fed the citizens of St Louis and San Diego.
I'm a Ram fan, first and foremost, and I will always be, no matter where they play. they could move to London, I'd still be a Ram fan. (though if they moved to San Francisco, I'd have to think hard on that one).
They had their chance to put it to a vote, they didn't because everyone knows how that would turn out. So they're trying to cut the public out of the loop.
 

iced

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If that is truly their rationale then I would personally like them to stop using the "no time" excuse. Because much like Fabiani asserts with the SD proposal, if they had done it earlier, they would have had the time.

Sorry but they are trying to say out of one side of their face that they have been working on this for more than a year and then out of the other side that the reason they didn't put it up for a vote was because they had no time to do it. I just hate the duplicity.

Stick with the bond being legally extendable and don't act like you would have liked to put it to a vote because you didn't try.

I disagree - you look at multiple scenarios and see which one yields you the best result. Time isn't on their side and hasn't been since the moment arbitration ruled in favor of the Rams. A viable plan has to be on the table before the NFL will rethink letting a team move - at this juncture, no one has it yet. And the degree of uncertainty involving a vote may turn off the NFL, even if the it appeals to be a lock or done deal that it would pass.

Let's not downplay the fact either that only 6 out of a 193 legislators have taken issue with it - I'd be inclined to believe they may believe they have some legal standing ground, and with the way the law appears to be written, I think they may too
 

RamFan503

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I disagree - you look at multiple scenarios and see which one yields you the best result. Time isn't on their side and hasn't been since the moment arbitration ruled in favor of the Rams. A viable plan has to be on the table before the NFL will rethink letting a team move - at this juncture, no one has it yet. And the degree of uncertainty involving a vote may turn off the NFL, even if the it appeals to be a lock or done deal that it would pass.

Let's not downplay the fact either that only 6 out of a 193 legislators have taken issue with it - I'd be inclined to believe they may believe they have some legal standing ground, and with the way the law appears to be written, I think they may too
They could have had a vote done by May and actually another one sooner than that if they have been working on it as long as they say.
 

beej

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I'm for the democratic process, and the citizens should have a say on where their money is spent.

for one thing America is not a true democracy it is a republic. The citizens do get a say in how their money is spent when they elect officials, and again in a couple years if those officials go against their will.

most of the time people on REALLY want a true democracy when they are in some majority.
 

The Ripper

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I disagree - you look at multiple scenarios and see which one yields you the best result. Time isn't on their side and hasn't been since the moment arbitration ruled in favor of the Rams. A viable plan has to be on the table before the NFL will rethink letting a team move - at this juncture, no one has it yet. And the degree of uncertainty involving a vote may turn off the NFL, even if the it appeals to be a lock or done deal that it would pass.

Let's not downplay the fact either that only 6 out of a 193 legislators have taken issue with it - I'd be inclined to believe they may believe they have some legal standing ground, and with the way the law appears to be written, I think they may too

6 out of 193 is just talking point and it doesn't measure support because your not going to have every legislator join the suit. There were 26 Senators who passed the bill in the Senate and it was stalled in the house by John Diehl who as it turned out was in the meetings last year on the proposed stadium.
 

bubbaramfan

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Right on beej, and the ONLY reason they didn't want the bond extension put to a vote is they knew that it would lose. And I'm guessing everyone here knows that too.
 

iced

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They could have had a vote done by May and actually another one sooner than that if they have been working on it as long as they say.

Hard to have a vote on something that isn't completed - renders weren't made public and ready til earlier on this year. Which even they still had to go back and make changes too.

Working on doesn't mean they had everything laid out back then, and if they feel didn't need a public vote with the way its written, why add more obstacles?
 
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