Manziel “Instant Quarterback Controversy” for Rams

[jjab360]

God people want watkins... I want a damn good offensive line so Sam doesn't get Bulgeritis this year!

You say they're "God people", I say they're Devil people.

 

[kurtfaulk]

You're moving the goal-posts, Mokler. You can't ask for an example and then disregard the example when it meets your criteria based on your own theory for the cause.

Regardless, I'm not worried about it. Whatever happens, happens. As long as they don't take Manziel at #2.

sorry Jerry, he didn't move the goalposts. The chargers had given up on brees. As was the thinking back then teams gave their rookie qbs a few games to watch and learn. Brees then started to play lights out. If it had happened now rivers would have started from game 1.

.

 

[kurtfaulk]

I love defending Sam Bradford because I like the guy and he's talented.. but I wonder if we had Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc... would we be more than a 7-9 team? A playoff team? I think we would. So it circles back to Bradford, other than not being healthy what is Sam doing wrong? Because I saw Tom Brady do quite a bit with not much around him last year.

Brady can stand like a statue for 5 seconds and choose which receiver gets open. Any time he has ever been put under pressure he looks like Jake Plummer. And apparently his oline never holds. Have the Packers ever beaten the whiners? How did the Saints go against the nfc West?

.

 

[jrry32]

So if they take Manziel at 2 it doesn't happen?

I'll do my best to pretend not...and I'll certainly be worried about it.

sorry Jerry, he didn't move the goalposts. The chargers had given up on brees. As was the thinking back then teams gave their rookie qbs a few games to watch and learn. Brees then started to play lights out. If it had happened now rivers would have started from game 1.

.

He asked when it benefited a QB's performance to have competition drafted. Well, Brees certainly played better after they drafted Rivers.

 

[kurtfaulk]

I'll do my best to pretend not...and I'll certainly be worried about it.



He asked when it benefited a QB's performance to have competition drafted. Well, Brees certainly played better after they drafted Rivers.

you're right but he did ask for an example where a qb was brought in to push the starter, not replace him. And in the end the chargers wasted the #1 pick because rivers isn't better than brees.

.

 

[jrry32]

you're right but he did ask for an example where a qb was brought in to push the starter, not replace him. And in the end the chargers wasted the #1 pick because rivers isn't better than brees.

.

I wouldn't say that's true either. They found a Pro Bowl caliber QB. That's not wasting a first round pick.

 

[kurtfaulk]

I wouldn't say that's true either. They found a Pro Bowl caliber QB. That's not wasting a first round pick.

It is when they already had a pro bowl caliber qb on the roster.

.

 

[moklerman]

I wouldn't say that's true either. They found a Pro Bowl caliber QB. That's not wasting a first round pick.

Even if they knew Rivers was going to be a pro-bowler, they essentially got rid of one pro-bowl Qb to replace him with another. They had to use a pick to do that. That's a wasted pick in my book. That #1 overall pick could have been used to improve the team more than they did.

 

[jrry32]

Even if they knew Rivers was going to be a pro-bowler, they essentially got rid of one pro-bowl Qb to replace him with another. They had to use a pick to do that. That's a wasted pick in my book. That #1 overall pick could have been used to improve the team more than they did.

Well, if that's a wasted pick in your book, I don't put much weight in the opinion of that book. A pick that nets you a Pro Bowl caliber QB can never be a wasted pick.

I guess the 49ers wasted two picks trading for Steve Young.

 

[moklerman]

Well, if that's a wasted pick in your book, I don't put much weight in the opinion of that book. A pick that nets you a Pro Bowl caliber QB can never be a wasted pick.

I guess the 49ers wasted two picks trading for Steve Young.

Drew Brees and Deangelo Hall or Philip Rivers?

But you got me, I should have written that's a wasted first round pick in my book. Obviously, if you can get a starting QB for a 7th rounder then it isn't a wasted pick. But in the Chargers case, they had to spend a #1 overall to get a QB when they didn't actually need one. They could have vastly improved their overall team and still had the better QB. That's still a waste in my book. They made a bad evaluation and bad decision and in no way should the Rams emulate what the Chargers did as a course of action IMO.

 

[Rams and Gators]

Even if they knew Rivers was going to be a pro-bowler, they essentially got rid of one pro-bowl Qb to replace him with another. They had to use a pick to do that. That's a wasted pick in my book. That #1 overall pick could have been used to improve the team more than they did.

Exactly this, when you can have Drew Brees+Larry Fitzgerald for example or just Phillip Rivers, that can't be classed as anything other than a waisted pick.

 

[moklerman]

Exactly this, when you can have Drew Brees+Larry Fitzgerald for example or just Phillip Rivers, that can't be classed as anything other than a waisted pick.

I was going to suggest this but that would mean the Chargers would have had to have taken Larry #1 overall. He wasn't quite worth that at the time. In retrospect? Maybe. But trading out of the #1 spot when Eli refused to play for them and gaining picks from NYG and then still being able to get DeAngelo Hall and keeping Brees? Yeah, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat.

Whoever was evaluating talent for the Chargers was really quite good. Whoever was deciding who to keep was a bit questionable. Look at some of the guys the made the wrong call on. Wes Welker, Drew Brees, Darren Sproles, Vincent Jackson(his might have been money), probably more that I'm forgetting. They just needed to trust their instincts and they'd have had a helluva team.

Which is exactly the risk that the Rams would take now if they gave up on Bradford for a grass is greener college hotshot.

 

[jrry32]

Drew Brees and Deangelo Hall or Philip Rivers?

But you got me, I should have written that's a wasted first round pick in my book. Obviously, if you can get a starting QB for a 7th rounder then it isn't a wasted pick. But in the Chargers case, they had to spend a #1 overall to get a QB when they didn't actually need one. They could have vastly improved their overall team and still had the better QB. That's still a waste in my book. They made a bad evaluation and bad decision and in no way should the Rams emulate what the Chargers did as a course of action IMO.

Or...Drew Brees leaves and they're left with no decent QBs.

So the 49ers wasted picks when they traded for Steve Young? After all, Montana was still playing at a high level and they replaced a HOF QB with a HOF QB.

And the absolutely laughable thing here is you're acting like they knew Brees would become the guy he did. What happens if he didn't? They didn't get hindsight.

What happens if Bradford gets hurt again? What happens if Bradford, like RGIII, comes back and doesn't play well coming off his ACL?

But the Rams should just assume that he's perfect and that it's dumb to hedge their bets? Frankly, I think it's ludicrous that anyone is actually arguing that the Chargers made the wrong move and that it didn't pan out for them.

Exactly this, when you can have Drew Brees+Larry Fitzgerald for example or just Phillip Rivers, that can't be classed as anything other than a waisted pick.

Or they could have ended up starting Charlie Whitehurst when Drew Brees opted to leave.

Philip Rivers is a "wasted" pick? Come on now. That's nuts.

 

[jrry32]

Which is exactly the risk that the Rams would take now if they gave up on Bradford for a grass is greener college hotshot.

If that's the risk, the Rams should do it FOR SURE. If the risk is that Bradford pans out and the QB they drafted pans out, that's a win-win in my book. You choose who you want to keep. If it's Bradford, you trade Bridgewater and get good compensation. If it's Bridgewater, you trade Bradford or let him go in FA. You save ~$15 million dollars a year to spend on players to add to the team.

 

[moklerman]

Or...Drew Brees leaves and they're left with no decent QBs.

So the 49ers wasted picks when they traded for Steve Young? After all, Montana was still playing at a high level and they replaced a HOF QB with a HOF QB.

And the absolutely laughable thing here is you're acting like they knew Brees would become the guy he did. What happens if he didn't? They didn't get hindsight.

What happens if Bradford gets hurt again? What happens if Bradford, like RGIII, comes back and doesn't play well coming off his ACL?

But the Rams should just assume that he's perfect and that it's dumb to hedge their bets? Frankly, I think it's ludicrous that anyone is actually arguing that the Chargers made the wrong move and that it didn't pan out for them.

Or they could have ended up starting Charlie Whitehurst when Drew Brees opted to leave.

Philip Rivers is a "wasted" pick? Come on now. That's nuts.

Was a 2nd and a 4th a "waste" in the 49ers case? No, it worked out for them but it wasn't really necessary IMO. Just about any starting caliber QB would have had success withe the 49ers during that era so I don't think they had to plan almost 5 years in advance for when Montana got hurt. Maybe they thought he'd get hurt sooner or something but they could have just as easily just reacted once it did happen and still had success. Young wasn't any great shakes in the post season.

But, we can't really say that this is a reliable plan of action can we? Burning early picks just in case the heavily invested starter doesn't work out? Are we assuming if this action is taken that we're going to get Steve Young? Look at all the QB's taken in the first 3 rounds of any draft from the last 10 years. It doesn't paint a portrait of a good plan being to stuff one of them in your back pocket for a rainy day. Maybe...MAYBE Bridgewater pans out. But isn't it a lot better idea to just build up the team as much as possible while you've got a young starter already in place? There's no guarantee that Bridgewater will stay healthy much less become starting caliber. There are just too many "ifs" involved with using this 1st round pick for a QB. More importantly, it's planning around the negative. It's assuming there's good chance Bradford won't pan out. Which I actually acknowledge. But I think it's a very poor plan to not go all in with one's QB. If he's your guy and you plan on him being the future, you dedicate all your resources to making that a reality.

Sometimes it doesn't work out and you go bust. But that has to be the approach with QB's IMO.

 

[kurtfaulk]

If that's the risk, the Rams should do it FOR SURE. If the risk is that Bradford pans out and the QB they drafted pans out, that's a win-win in my book. You choose who you want to keep. If it's Bradford, you trade Bridgewater and get good compensation. If it's Bridgewater, you trade Bradford or let him go in FA. You save ~$15 million dollars a year to spend on players to add to the team.

This isn't 2004 anymore. If you're drafting a qb at #13 you're starting him right away. And then you're hoping he pans out. If they believe in Sam it's a wasted pick. If they take a qb at #13 then it's all over for Sam at the rams.

.

 

[jrry32]

Was a 2nd and a 4th a "waste" in the 49ers case? No, it worked out for them but it wasn't really necessary IMO. Just about any starting caliber QB would have had success withe the 49ers during that era so I don't think they had to plan almost 5 years in advance for when Montana got hurt. Maybe they thought he'd get hurt sooner or something but they could have just as easily just reacted once it did happen and still had success. Young wasn't any great shakes in the post season.

I believe it's called foresight. The 49ers saw an incredibly talented kid that had too much value to pass up for that price. So they acquired him despite having Montana in case Montana got hurt. And eventually, Montana's injuries piled up, they moved on. And it worked out well for them.

But, we can't really say that this is a reliable plan of action can we? Burning early picks just in case the heavily invested starter doesn't work out? Are we assuming if this action is taken that we're going to get Steve Young? Look at all the QB's taken in the first 3 rounds of any draft from the last 10 years. It doesn't paint a portrait of a good plan being to stuff one of them in your back pocket for a rainy day. Maybe...MAYBE Bridgewater pans out. But isn't it a lot better idea to just build up the team as much as possible while you've got a young starter already in place? There's no guarantee that Bridgewater will stay healthy much less become starting caliber. There are just too many "ifs" involved with using this 1st round pick for a QB. More importantly, it's planning around the negative. It's assuming there's good chance Bradford won't pan out. Which I actually acknowledge. But I think it's a very poor plan to not go all in with one's QB. If he's your guy and you plan on him being the future, you dedicate all your resources to making that a reality.

Sometimes it doesn't work out and you go bust. But that has to be the approach with QB's IMO.

I don't consider it to be burning an early pick. We're lucky enough to have an extra first round pick and if a guy like Bridgewater falls FAR further than he should, we should be thanking our lucky stars for that.

The problem with going "all in" is when you lose, you're done. Now we're back to the drawing board. I like Bradford. I think a lot of him. But I also think a lot of Bridgewater. And if teams are dumb enough to let him fall to #13...he should likely be our pick. Because if things end up poorly with Bradford, we'll be kicking ourselves when we realize we had a shot at Bridgewater.

This isn't 2004 anymore. If you're drafting a qb at #13 you're starting him right away. And then you're hoping he pans out. If they believe in Sam it's a wasted pick. If they take a qb at #13 then it's all over for Sam at the rams.

.

That logic doesn't fly with me. You can draft a QB at #13 to groom him. Packers were smart enough to draft a kid at #24 in 2005 to groom. Yes, I realize Favre was older.

The point of the matter is the idea that you can't sit a QB is completely flawed. You can sit a QB. Most teams just don't out of necessity. And that's nothing new.

There are shades of gray in the world. This isn't black and white. Choosing a QB at #13 does not mean giving up on Bradford or that it's a wasted pick if you believe in Bradford. It's called hedging your bets with a player that is great value. You're preparing for the worst. And if things workout with Bradford, you trade the QB. Which isn't hard to do.

 

[Rams and Gators]

Or...Drew Brees leaves and they're left with no decent QBs.

So the 49ers wasted picks when they traded for Steve Young? After all, Montana was still playing at a high level and they replaced a HOF QB with a HOF QB.

And the absolutely laughable thing here is you're acting like they knew Brees would become the guy he did. What happens if he didn't? They didn't get hindsight.

What happens if Bradford gets hurt again? What happens if Bradford, like RGIII, comes back and doesn't play well coming off his ACL?

But the Rams should just assume that he's perfect and that it's dumb to hedge their bets? Frankly, I think it's ludicrous that anyone is actually arguing that the Chargers made the wrong move and that it didn't pan out for them.



Or they could have ended up starting Charlie Whitehurst when Drew Brees opted to leave.

Philip Rivers is a "wasted" pick? Come on now. That's nuts.

When was the last time a team came to a contract agreement with a QB they really wanted? I don't recall a single time, possibly Eli Manning and the Chargers?

Is it laughable to assume that people who worked with Drew Brees every day were capable of doing their jobs and identifying talent, and believing they were capable of moulding that talent into the QB Brees is today?

Snead and Fisher should make a decision on what's best for the franchise, if they end up picking a Pro Bowl QB but Bradford becomes a superior elsewhere it will be a waste.

And I think it's ludicrous that such a poor decision can be construed in any way as being a success. So I'll stop.

 

[jrry32]

When was the last time a team came to a contract agreement with a QB they really wanted? I don't recall a single time, possibly Eli Manning and the Chargers?

Is it laughable to assume that people who worked with Drew Brees every day were capable of doing their jobs and identifying talent, and believing they were capable of moulding that talent into the QB Brees is today?

Considering how Brees played his first couple years. I think it's laughable to assume they should have KNOWN that he'd be the guy he is today.

Snead and Fisher should make a decision on what's best for the franchise, if they end up picking a Pro Bowl QB but Bradford becomes a superior elsewhere it will be a waste.

No, it won't be. Especially considering that Bridgewater would be making around $20 million over his five years on his rookie contract while Bradford, if he turned out to be a Pro Bowl Caliber QB, would be making $20 million PER YEAR. So the money we save is pretty substantial. Plus, Bridgewater is five years younger.

Those two reasons alone would negate the superiority...unless Bridgewater turns out to be Tony Romo/Matt Schaub while Bradford is Brady.

And I think it's ludicrous that such a poor decision can be construed in any way as being a success. So I'll stop.

Please do. Because I can't take this seriously any more. Arguing that they made a mistake? Fine. That's certainly arguable. Arguing that picking one of the top 10 QBs in the NFL, a multiple time Pro Bowler, and a guy who had MVP caliber seasons was a wasted pick...that's outrageous. It's looney toons. No, it's LONEY toons. That's how crazy and bad it is.

 

[moklerman]

I don't consider it to be burning an early pick. We're lucky enough to have an extra first round pick and if a guy like Bridgewater falls FAR further than he should, we should be thanking our lucky stars for that.

I don't think the Rams are "lucky", they generated that extra round pick. They used the resources, players and plan that they have to make the trade that got them an additional(not extra) 1st round pick. A big part of everything they've done and the reason they were able to do it is because they have and believe in Bradford.

I just can't put that much faith in the idea that Bridgewater's a safe pick or that having a spare QB is a better plan than building the rest of the roster spots that actually need it. For every Rodgers, there's at least twice as many Leinart's.