Manziel “Instant Quarterback Controversy” for Rams

[jrry32]

I'm OK with Manziel at 13, but I live in Fort Worth Texas, so I'm a big Manziel fan. I know Saint Louis Sam's fans would barf, if it happened.

Sometimes I wonder if Rams fans are fundamentally different from other football fans. It's a thought that nags me. For example, some fan bases seem totally cool, bring in the Young Gun to compete with the current starter. Jet's fans for instant. Rams fans are extremely loyal. Rams fans tend to be deep thinkers. I know a bunch of Dallas Cowboy fans. We're not like them.

Eh, depends on the board. There are a good bit of people on other boards that want nothing to do with Bradford and/or are ready to move on from players if they underwhelm in their first or second year with the team.

I think every fan-base tends to have the patient, loyal types and the instant gratification types.

 

[RmsLegends]

I was thinking more about the 7 interceptions in 2 games last post season. But if you look at Luck's career so far, it's very similar to Bradford's first two full seasons and there is absolutely no talk of trying to make Luck better by drafting a QB in the first round just in case.

If one thinks that competition will bring out more from Bradford that's just a nice way of saying that he isn't trying hard enough or doing everything that he can. Which is ludicrous IMO. I don't think his desire or work ethic is in question at all.

I would have to say the only difference is Luck, has provided wins and under Sam we have not yet reached a winning season. So if one guy has the production why would there be talk as such and if another guy has not yet reached that mark it would only be natural there is gonna be talk as such. I have to disagree with the second part of your statement as some folks thrive under pressure. Perhaps ya are one of those or know someone who is, but when in a situation of no one over their shoulder they just don't produce as well as they do by feeling footsteps behind them. So do I personally think Sam is a sloucher heavens no by any means I do believe he gives it his best and puts in the time. Do I think Sam could elevate his game by feeling pressure or footsteps behind him? I have no clue as so far he has never faced that situation of someone over his shoulder. So how he would react is a mystery to me as he has not faced such a situation. So I don't think saying he needs competition is a indictment he is a slacker since we all have seen or know as well as could be one ourselves, a person who thrives under pressure and in the fire per say.

 

[moklerman]

I would have to say the only difference is Luck, has provided wins and under Sam we have not yet reached a winning season. So if one guy has the production why would there be talk as such and if another guy has not yet reached that mark it would only be natural there is gonna be talk as such. I have to disagree with the second part of your statement as some folks thrive under pressure. Perhaps ya are one of those or know someone who is, but when in a situation of no one over their shoulder they just don't produce as well as they do by feeling footsteps behind them. So do I personally think Sam is a sloucher heavens no by any means I do believe he gives it his best and puts in the time. Do I think Sam could elevate his game by feeling pressure or footsteps behind him? I have no clue as so far he has never faced that situation of someone over his shoulder. So how he would react is a mystery to me as he has not faced such a situation. So I don't think saying he needs competition is a indictment he is a slacker since we all have seen or know as well as could be one ourselves, a person who thrives under pressure and in the fire per say.

We've been having this discussion lately around here so I'll put it to you to give an example or even a few examples of QB's who've benefited from having a 1st round pick or expensive FA brought in to "push" them. I wasn't able to come up with one myself but I keep getting told it's a really good way to approach the QB situation.

 

[LesBaker]

We've been having this discussion lately around here so I'll put it to you to give an example or even a few examples of QB's who've benefited from having a 1st round pick or expensive FA brought in to "push" them. I wasn't able to come up with one myself but I keep getting told it's a really good way to approach the QB situation.

And you can look and look and look and you won't find a single one.

 

[-X-]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my reasoning had very little to do with Bradford being pushed. All I ever wanted was a better contingency plan than Feeley, Clemens, Lewis, Davis, or Hill.

 

[moklerman]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my reasoning had very little to do with Bradford being pushed. All I ever wanted was a better contingency plan than Feeley, Clemens, Lewis, Davis, or Hill.

Fair enough but I also think we have a very good #2 QB right now. Hill's a borderline starter with a lot of NFL success and he isn't vying for the starters' job. The Rams are set up perfectly for this season at QB IMO.

 

[FRO]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my reasoning had very little to do with Bradford being pushed. All I ever wanted was a better contingency plan than Feeley, Clemens, Lewis, Davis, or Hill.

I don't think you draft contingency plans in the first round unless you are a pretty established team. I think there are some solid contingency types to be had in rounds 3-5.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I would think I have been fair in my assessment of why there is controversy with Sam as if he had a season or two of a winning record under his belt I doubt there would be the controversy there is concerning him. However I will use a team stat for a team sport 2010 (7/9)........2011 (1/9).........2012 (7/8/1)......2013 (3/4). See not a winning record in the bunch so I think I can state in all fairness that his controversy comes from a lack of a winning record or if he had posted a winning record in the same time period we would not see the controversy concerning him.

2013 was a shame as he when he exited had still put forth the same type of record as he had been doing in other words subpar and not a winning record. However there were games yet to be played so can we have positive assurance of what the outcome would have been other than using speculation and we coulda or we shoulda or we woulda, but the fact is since the games were not played by him the true outcome can never been known. So I find it easy to also fairly say he is still a question mark as we have yet to post a winning season under him and his best chance for one was snapped short last year so absent the evidence of it actually being done, I am left to speculate what he might have done. If I use speculation though I don't have a true metric to base my statement upon and it becomes opinion rather than a assessment of the situation.

So I think I gave a fair assessment as to why the controversy is around Sam, because he has yet to produce a winning record. Now do I blame him alone for the lack of that heck no as it is a team sport so it falls upon the team. However since it is a team sport he bears as much responsibility for the wins as well as the losses as every member on the team does as well as the coaching and front office.

I also said that Sam has had no competition and I think is also a fair assessment as if he has I have no clue who it could have been?

Well then by your measure every player on the team that has been around a few years is culpable and a candidate for replacement or competition. Bye bye Quinn and Long. Seriously, if you could base everything on one dimension of a multi faceted game, such as winning then GMs would never get fired because their job would be so easy.

 

[-X-]

I don't think you draft contingency plans in the first round unless you are a pretty established team. I think there are some solid contingency types to be had in rounds 3-5.

Perhaps. And I hope you're right. But could any be considered "the answer" if something very bad happens to Bradford? Because that's where my line of reasoning is coming into play. That, and the fact that the Rams have what I consider to be a 'free' pick in the first round of this draft. They could (again, by my reasoning) use it on anything they want and it would be considered a bonus.

 

[SierraRam]

I'm OK with Manziel at 13, but I live in Fort Worth Texas, so I'm a big Manziel fan. I know Saint Louis Sam's fans would barf, if it happened.

Sometimes I wonder if Rams fans are fundamentally different from other football fans. It's a thought that nags me. For example, some fan bases seem totally cool, bring in the Young Gun to compete with the current starter. Jet's fans for instant. Rams fans are extremely loyal. Rams fans tend to be deep thinkers. I know a bunch of Dallas Cowboy fans. We're not like them.

I wouldn't barf, but I would be disappointed. We have other needs to address early and I'm not ready to give up on Sam yet. After we fix the line once and for all, he should be fine. We're going in the right direction and JM could possibly distract us right now. Jets fans have good reason to go with the "young gun."

As far as being "deep thinkers" and different from Cowboy fans, uh, Ima thankin' ya

 

[Mojo Ram]

Perhaps. And I hope you're right. But could any be considered "the answer" if something very bad happens to Bradford? Because that's where my line of reasoning is coming into play. That, and the fact that the Rams have what I consider to be a 'free' pick in the first round of this draft. They could (again, by my reasoning) use it on anything they want and it would be considered a bonus.

Eh, i think if you're a playoff team it would be considered a free pick(a second 1st).
I think it's more of a very timely and fortunate to have it type pick for a team like us.
Rams don't have any room to fuck around with first rd picks.

 

[moklerman]

Perhaps. And I hope you're right. But could any be considered "the answer" if something very bad happens to Bradford? Because that's where my line of reasoning is coming into play. That, and the fact that the Rams have what I consider to be a 'free' pick in the first round of this draft. They could (again, by my reasoning) use it on anything they want and it would be considered a bonus.

But can any of the first rounders this year truly be considered "the answer". It's a big assumption to say that if Bradford goes down, any of these guys would salvage the Rams situation. It's a much better bet overall, IMO, to continue surrounding Bradford with as good a team as possible. Which means the Rams 1st round pick(s) go toward players who are going to contribute under best case scenarios rather than sit on the bench under the same.

It all depends on POV. I don't feel Sam is a question mark or will be limited this year so my approach is based on that. I'm aware of his past injuries and that he's coming off of an ACL but I don't think he's been Culpeppered or even Palmered so it's not an issue for me.

 

[-X-]

But can any of the first rounders this year truly be considered "the answer". It's a big assumption to say that if Bradford goes down, any of these guys would salvage the Rams situation. It's a much better bet overall, IMO, to continue surrounding Bradford with as good a team as possible. Which means the Rams 1st round pick(s) go toward players who are going to contribute under best case scenarios rather than sit on the bench under the same.

It all depends on POV. I don't feel Sam is a question mark or will be limited this year so my approach is based on that. I'm aware of his past injuries and that he's coming off of an ACL but I don't think he's been Culpeppered or even Palmered so it's not an issue for me.

I know. Your point is equally as valid. As you said, it's all POV.

And to be clear, I have no expectation that Bradford will be anything short of healthy and remarkable.

 

[RmsLegends]

But there is perception and then there's reality. I think you were being given credit for the latter. So, if you know better than to assign all responsibility to one player why bring it up in a discussion/comparison?

Because also it is reality that sometimes replacing one guy ya hold accountable can produce the desired result. First one that pops in my head is Grant. He was involved in the ultimate team play where if ya have a bad day next time ya say we will get them next week ya are absent some players. History is full of such examples across all walks of life the current one I also think of is Alan Mulally of Ford and how he made his comeback with their brand absent government help. Thing is sometimes it is unfair to hold people accountable as some things just might be outta their control. However we have a history of doing such and it has had many great benefits for us we have won wars by doing such in sports a team has gone from a zero to a hero and in business it has created financial opportunities.

I would have to say since Sam played football before and was well aware of the environment. He knew full well that he would shoulder a big burden by electing to play the position and saying yes to a contract. So am I being harsh or unfair when he already knew from years of playing the position and watching the sport and reading and seeing what happened to QB's? Did he expect he would feel this heat or did he think I am able to get the job done so my accomplishments will be many?

So the reality is we do hold people accountable and responsible and Sam was aware of this and said I can do it I can get the job done. An so far has not. However I would say the Rams think he has not had a fair shake and why going into his 5th year they are willing to stick with him and say yea we never put a great cast around ya and so we are gonna endeavour to do so.

So in my honest opinion he has been treated most fair by the Rams and even us as fans as both keep saying ok what if we do this or that will it give him a chance to excel. So he has longer opportunities that most and even the understanding and sympathy of his organizations and the fan base that even know the attitude is we did not do enough for him to excel and he can do so if we only place all the right pieces in place for him.

So have I been unfair in my assessment of what he has done to date I don't think so. Did he maybe bite off more than he realized by coming here that can only be determined in this coming year and perhaps next. As for sure we have not been a ideal team, but even under less than ideal situations some folks still emerge and for us I would say Quinn would be one.

 

[Mojo Ram]

I would say a good example of a team owning free picks was the 2001 Rams team with three firsts.

 

[-X-]

I would say a good example of a team owning free picks was the 2001 Rams team with three firsts.

Yuck. I mean, seriously.

YUCK.

Way to screw the pooch with THAT draft.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Yuck. I mean, seriously.

YUCK.

Way to screw the pooch with THAT draft.

I know right?
Talk about an opportunity wasted. Although Pickett did have a "nice" career. He might still be playing...

 

[moklerman]

Because also it is reality that sometimes replacing one guy ya hold accountable can produce the desired result. First one that pops in my head is Grant. He was involved in the ultimate team play where if ya have a bad day next time ya say we will get them next week ya are absent some players. History is full of such examples across all walks of life the current one I also think of is Alan Mulally of Ford and how he made his comeback with their brand absent government help. Thing is sometimes it is unfair to hold people accountable as some things just might be outta their control. However we have a history of doing such and it has had many great benefits for us we have won wars by doing such in sports a team has gone from a zero to a hero and in business it has created financial opportunities.

I would have to say since Sam played football before and was well aware of the environment. He knew full well that he would shoulder a big burden by electing to play the position and saying yes to a contract. So am I being harsh or unfair when he already knew from years of playing the position and watching the sport and reading and seeing what happened to QB's? Did he expect he would feel this heat or did he think I am able to get the job done so my accomplishments will be many?

So the reality is we do hold people accountable and responsible and Sam was aware of this and said I can do it I can get the job done. An so far has not. However I would say the Rams think he has not had a fair shake and why going into his 5th year they are willing to stick with him and say yea we never put a great cast around ya and so we are gonna endeavour to do so.

So in my honest opinion he has been treated most fair by the Rams and even us as fans as both keep saying ok what if we do this or that will it give him a chance to excel. So he has longer opportunities that most and even the understanding and sympathy of his organizations and the fan base that even know the attitude is we did not do enough for him to excel and he can do so if we only place all the right pieces in place for him.

So have I been unfair in my assessment of what he has done to date I don't think so. Did he maybe bite off more than he realized by coming here that can only be determined in this coming year and perhaps next. As for sure we have not been a ideal team, but even under less than ideal situations some folks still emerge and for us I would say Quinn would be one.

You're kind of all over the place here. One point I don't agree with though, your opinion that Bradford has not gotten it done. I think he has done relatively well. He doesn't cost the Rams games with stupid plays and he has been productive as circumstances have improved.

Much of what you're saying doesn't seem to be supported in context of the Rams though. Other QB's have not come in and outproduced Bradford at his position. The team's record may have been similar in cases but individual production has not. So, just arbitrarily replacing Bradford because he plays QB and the general perception is to hold the QB position responsible for a team's wins and losses does not seem like a sound approach to me.

 

[jrry32]

I know right?
Talk about an opportunity wasted. Although Pickett did have a "nice" career. He might still be playing...

He was last year. He's a FA, I think.

 

[-X-]

I know right?
Talk about an opportunity wasted. Although Pickett did have a "nice" career. He might still be playing...

Look at the picks immediately after the Rams picked...

Marcus Stroud (3x pro bowler)
Nate Clements (pro bowler)
Reggie Wayne (6x pro bowler)

Our picks .... zip.