Debating which team will win the NFC West: Rams, Seahawks, 49ers or Cardinals? | First Take

[dang]

So does every team that traded two firsts to move up and draft a QB have to win a Super Bowl too? It’s just a move to get a better QB.

No but their offense better be significantly better and their ability to come from behind better no longer be a problem.

 

[RAMSinLA]

The loss of the coaches and assistants we lost worries me more than the loss of a couple of defensive players.

 

[Ram65]

IMO even if the Rams never win a Super Bowl with Stafford at QB I don't see McVay, Snead, the entire organization, and most fans second-guessing the move. It is the right move.It is going to be a great division battle all around. I think the Rams should be the favorites with the Whiners a close second. I hope more media types make the Rams the underdog in the division. The Rams defense is going to be better this year and so is the offense. Even though the hopes of a SB Championship are extremely high it takes more than a QB to make it happen. Stafford simply increases the odds and expectations greatly.

 

[CoachAllred]

Not to pile on but just to compare: Jared has 8 GWDs. It was an area of diminishing confidence for and from Goff.

Some may disagree but, unless the lions have some superior offensive coaching and scheme.
That is not overly complicated. Next years Goff is gonna look a lot more like Fishers Goff than McVays Goff.
The Rams generally give up low to mid 20's per year in sacks. Detroit on the other hand have averaged giving up 40+ sacks a year.

Detroits first three games. They will be fortunate to start 1-2 with 0-3 being my prediction.

 

[oldnotdead]

I prefer to see some evidence before touting rookies as upgrades over very good NFL players.

We have seen both Johnson and Hill play in both Staley's zone-heavy scheme and in a more conventional man/zone 3-4 hybrid scheme. Johnson and Hill are both scheme dependent, i.e. zone DBs. They lack the speed to play outside of those schemes. With Burgess and Rochell the Rams now have DBs with the speed to play sideline to sideline or matchup with better receivers. Snead understands that the speed of the game is increasing and team speed is very important now more than ever. Hill and Johnson are examples of good enough type players. Use them within their limited skillset and they can be productive. Outside of that limited box not so much. Both of the aforementioned players are at their peak now and that is a problem for a team that needs to be more.

Rochell and Burgess have much higher ceilings. Yes, it needs to be realized, but the fact remains that potential is there with them whereas it isn't with Hill and Johnson. If Morris wants to play a single high alignment he can with Burgess. With Johnson's speed 4.61 he would need to shade to one side and play shallower. Burgess has true sideline to sideline speed at 4.46 allowing him to play deeper and not favor one side or the other. It may not seem like much of a difference but it is. People say with Ramsey on one side what's the problem shading to William's side? That assumes Ramsey doesn't drop into the StarCB position putting David Long at RCB. That's what was shown as a weakness last year. It's much harder to hide your defensive play when you have limited DBs. Hill couldn't hold up on his own outside. It's much easier for the OC to scheme Ramsey out of the play.

What I like about Morris is that he has proven he can get more with less. Now he has the best roster he's ever had in his career so I would expect this defense to remain one of the NFL's best. What I do expect is that Morris will shore up that leaky run defense. That is why the Niners beat the Rams last year. Staley's defense was pass-centric in its emphasis. That works when your offense forces the opposition to play from behind. I never liked Staley's philosophy of run defense on the way to the QB. The Niners proved that it doesn't work with a team that has both a good passing game and especially a strong run attack.

Bobby Brown, Earnest Brown, and Ernest Jones were drafted specifically to plug that run defense hole. Bobby Brown is the ultimate replacement for Robinson and E. Brown is the early-down rotational guy at the DE position. I see Jones as an early-down option alongside Reeder. If Young has a weakness it's in run defense. So I can see an early-down rotation between Young and Jones. On early downs, Jones would be your A gap plug freeing Reeder to flow to the POA or drop into coverage on an early down pass.

It's clear to me that Snead feels they might not be able to keep D. Williams next year. I see Rochell as his eventual replacement. That could come as early as next year if Rochell shows improvement. It's normally the second year that CBs begin to realize their potential and have their breakout year in their 3rd year. If Rochell follows that developmental trajectory he could be the LCB next year.

 

[oldnotdead]

Next years Goff is gonna look a lot more like Fishers Goff than McVays Goff.

I respectfully disagree. Detroit is handling Goff much differently than he was treated as a Ram. He was expected to fill a pre-determined role. In Detroit, they are designing the offense to fit Goff's skillset something McVay wouldn't do. The problem is Goff doesn't have the receivers and possibly the RBs. He has St Brown a rookie WR who projects as a possession type receiver and a good veteran TE in Hockenson. De'Andre Swift has the potential to be a solid RB, and will be in his 3rd year. Goff should be playing behind an OL that looks like it could be pretty good. They have a good Center, a good LT and they just drafted a 1st round RT.

I don't see a pending dumpster fire in Detroit. I think they are two years away from being at least a wildcard contender and perhaps a division contender as well. I think Goff is in the best situation he could be in. He's with a HC who is willing to listen and build an offense around Goff, and a FO that believes in him. I really believe Holmes when he says Goff is not a bridge QB and wants him to be their QB of the future.

With two first round picks the next two years Holmes can rebuild quickly and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of those first round picks aren't WRs.

I can easily see Holmes snapping up any Ram receivers that hit the wire like Webster might.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

We have seen both Johnson and Hill play in both Staley's zone-heavy scheme and in a more conventional man/zone 3-4 hybrid scheme. Johnson and Hill are both scheme dependent, i.e. zone DBs. They lack the speed to play outside of those schemes. With Burgess and Rochell the Rams now have DBs with the speed to play sideline to sideline or matchup with better receivers. Snead understands that the speed of the game is increasing and team speed is very important now more than ever. Hill and Johnson are examples of good enough type players. Use them within their limited skillset and they can be productive. Outside of that limited box not so much. Both of the aforementioned players are at their peak now and that is a problem for a team that needs to be more.

Rochell and Burgess have much higher ceilings. Yes, it needs to be realized, but the fact remains that potential is there with them whereas it isn't with Hill and Johnson. If Morris wants to play a single high alignment he can with Burgess. With Johnson's speed 4.61 he would need to shade to one side and play shallower. Burgess has true sideline to sideline speed at 4.46 allowing him to play deeper and not favor one side or the other. It may not seem like much of a difference but it is. People say with Ramsey on one side what's the problem shading to William's side? That assumes Ramsey doesn't drop into the StarCB position putting David Long at RCB. That's what was shown as a weakness last year. It's much harder to hide your defensive play when you have limited DBs. Hill couldn't hold up on his own outside. It's much easier for the OC to scheme Ramsey out of the play.

What I like about Morris is that he has proven he can get more with less. Now he has the best roster he's ever had in his career so I would expect this defense to remain one of the NFL's best. What I do expect is that Morris will shore up that leaky run defense. That is why the Niners beat the Rams last year. Staley's defense was pass-centric in its emphasis. That works when your offense forces the opposition to play from behind. I never liked Staley's philosophy of run defense on the way to the QB. The Niners proved that it doesn't work with a team that has both a good passing game and especially a strong run attack.

Bobby Brown, Earnest Brown, and Ernest Jones were drafted specifically to plug that run defense hole. Bobby Brown is the ultimate replacement for Robinson and E. Brown is the early-down rotational guy at the DE position. I see Jones as an early-down option alongside Reeder. If Young has a weakness it's in run defense. So I can see an early-down rotation between Young and Jones. On early downs, Jones would be your A gap plug freeing Reeder to flow to the POA or drop into coverage on an early down pass.

It's clear to me that Snead feels they might not be able to keep D. Williams next year. I see Rochell as his eventual replacement. That could come as early as next year if Rochell shows improvement. It's normally the second year that CBs begin to realize their potential and have their breakout year in their 3rd year. If Rochell follows that developmental trajectory he could be the LCB next year.

JJ was a third round pick and played corner for Boston College. Many considered him a pro bowl snub. He doesn’t have Earl Thomas Speed but he’s played man coverage without being a liability in the past.

Hill is what he is but we have no way to know if Rochell will reach his ceiling or not. He has a long way to go.

 

[PARAM]

So does every team that traded two firsts to move up and draft a QB have to win a Super Bowl too?

In a word? YES.

SF traded up to get Lance. Did they do that "to get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

The Rams traded 2 firsts and then some to get Goff. To "get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

The Eagles traded 2 firsts and more to get Wentz. To "get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

No team makes a huge move just "to get better". They do it to win a Superbowl.

Or they just don't "get it"

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I respectfully disagree. Detroit is handling Goff much differently than he was treated as a Ram. He was expected to fill a pre-determined role. In Detroit, they are designing the offense to fit Goff's skillset something McVay wouldn't do. The problem is Goff doesn't have the receivers and possibly the RBs. He has St Brown a rookie WR who projects as a possession type receiver and a good veteran TE in Hockenson. De'Andre Swift has the potential to be a solid RB, and will be in his 3rd year. Goff should be playing behind an OL that looks like it could be pretty good. They have a good Center, a good LT and they just drafted a 1st round RT.

I don't see a pending dumpster fire in Detroit. I think they are two years away from being at least a wildcard contender and perhaps a division contender as well. I think Goff is in the best situation he could be in. He's with a HC who is willing to listen and build an offense around Goff, and a FO that believes in him. I really believe Holmes when he says Goff is not a bridge QB and wants him to be their QB of the future.

With two first round picks the next two years Holmes can rebuild quickly and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of those first round picks aren't WRs.

I can easily see Holmes snapping up any Ram receivers that hit the wire like Webster might.

Goff is a first read QB that struggles to read defenses. He doesn’t see receivers until they are open. What offensive scheme can capitalize on that?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

In a word? YES.

SF traded up to get Lance. Did they do that "to get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

The Rams traded 2 firsts and then some to get Goff. To "get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

The Eagles traded 2 firsts and more to get Wentz. To "get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

No team makes a huge move just "to get better". They do it to win a Superbowl.

Or they just don't "get it"

So if San Fran doesn’t get to the Super Bowl in a year the trade is a flop and Shanahan’s rep takes a big hit?

 

[PARAM]

So if San Fran doesn’t get to the Super Bowl in a year the trade is a flop and Shanahan’s rep takes a big hit?

Who said "in a year"? They have to win a SB. If that's 2021, fine. Or.2022, 2023 or 2024. But as a HC/QB combo, they have to win a Superbowl or it's a disappointment.

 

[Ram65]

In a word? YES.

SF traded up to get Lance. Did they do that "to get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

The Rams traded 2 firsts and then some to get Goff. To "get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

The Eagles traded 2 firsts and more to get Wentz. To "get a better QB" or to win a Superbowl?

No team makes a huge move just "to get better". They do it to win a Superbowl.

Or they just don't "get it"

I guess you can say every move a team makes is to win a Super Bowl.

 

[CoachAllred]

In Detroit, they are designing the offense to fit Goff's skillset something McVay wouldn't do.

Not even remotely true. McVay changed a huge portion of the offense last year to play to Goffs Strength.
Or rather to hide his weakness's

I don't see a pending dumpster fire in Detroit. I think they are two years away from being at least a wildcard contender and perhaps a division contender as well. I think Goff is in the best situation he could be in. He's with a HC who is willing to listen and build an offense around Goff, and a FO that believes in him. I really believe Holmes when he says Goff is not a bridge QB and wants him to be their QB of the future.

This entire paragraph is nothing more but pure conjecture.

With two first round picks the next two years Holmes can rebuild quickly and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of those first round picks aren't WRs.

Will not be surprised if one of those picks will be a QB. Or they will be used to acquire a qb.

Don't take my word for it, Just sit back and watch it.
It's gonna take a major adjustment to Goff's mental dedication and preparation for him to thrive.

 

[PARAM]

I guess you can say every move a team makes is to win a Super Bowl.

Sure.

But when you trade 2 first.round picks for a player be it a vet or rookie, its definitely to win a SB

 

[kurtfaulk]

Goff is a first read QB that struggles to read defenses. He doesn’t see receivers until they are open. What offensive scheme can capitalize on that?

so you're saying he was going to his first read every time in 2017 and 2018? haha, c'mon man, you're better than that.

.

 

[Giles]

Not even remotely true. McVay changed a huge portion of the offense last year to play to Goffs Strength.
Or rather to hide his weaknesses.

I dont know how you came to this conclusion but I bet you anything that the offensive play calling will be 90% the same since 2017 with Stafford. Mcvay isn't gonna change his offense for any player. Look no further than Goff having one of the highest % of snaps under center since 2017 when he never did that in college as proof. I don't even need to look up statistics to know mcvay run very little plays out of the gun. Stafford is just a better fit for mcvays offense than Goff was but let's not pretend like mcvay catered his offense to fit Goff strengths.....he didn't. Mcvay ran his offense and put players in it that fit and Goff didn't fit.

 

[Giles]

Goff is a first read QB that struggles to read defenses. He doesn’t see receivers until they are open. What offensive scheme can capitalize on that?

Yea that's simply not true.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

That was a late throw. Brandin Cooks was wide open and Jared was late. But it did hit Brandin in the hands and to quote Torry Holt if it touches your hands you better catch it. But it shouldn't have been as difficult as it was. Doesn't get that much easier than that in NFL.


View: https://youtu.be/_QO55-KqgZo

It was catchable, very catchable, late by a fraction of a second, perhaps, yet that was perfectly on target imo

so I guess we agree? Lol

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

So if San Fran doesn’t get to the Super Bowl in a year the trade is a flop and Shanahan’s rep takes a big hit?

How in the hell can a football smart guy like yourself (and I seriously mean that) can accurately call the inadequacies of the Rams OLine preseason last year (And you nailed it, especially the interior) and not seemingly comprehend the effect such inadequacies would have...consequences, on a 25 year old classic drop back QB is most puzzling

 

[Angry Ram]

It was catchable, very catchable, late by a fraction of a second, perhaps, yet that was perfectly on target imo

so I guess we agree? Lol

You can make a case for either way. First half 2018 Jared would've nailed that pass. But the one post Chiefs 2018 game...not so much.

Oh glob, I actually watched the vid again. That ball was indeed a wobbler. It hung in the air (you can tell how Brandin had to wait for it and climb back up for it). I place 60/40 Jared/Brandin on that play. It's unreal and unfortunate how Jared's development became stagnant.