Covid 19 thread

[XXXIVwin]

Seem pretty rigid and extreme to me, since the poll didnt ask if they refused, only if they didnt wear.
Alas, you can feel free to block me

I think most of the posters on this thread are reasonable. I don't think it's helpful to think of the posters on this thread as "Anti-Masks Terrorists" (who run around coughing on old people) and"Pro-Mask Nazis" (who insist on wearing masks in the shower).

(And dieter, I'm not saying you personally think that, I'm just making a generalized point).

In the USA, alas, there's a wide range of opinions, including a heck of a lot of people who believe stuff on the extremes, in both directions.

I think many Americans don't wear masks for a huge variety of reasons. Sometimes because it's inconvenient, or they're damn uncomfortable (which they are), or because they're teens and 20-somethings, or maybe because they simply forgot to bring one, or they think the threat is overblown, or they don’t think they work, or they are opposed to government mandates, or maybe they just don't like being told what to do. And a whole host of other reasons.

But yes, I do indeed think that a smaller subset of Americans-- and that number is STILL in the millions-- who "refuse" to wear masks out of principle.

Here is an article from just last week, in Provo Utah. In my opinion, many of the opinions expressed here are not contained to just Provo.

In Provo, over a hundred people gathered together in a small room for over two hours, made a point of ignoring social distancing, refused to wear masks, and shouted their reasons why they are against mask-wearing. Do I think a gathering like this is common. NO! Do I think SOME of the IDEAS they expressed are widespread? YES, I do.

(Edit: not saying these anti-mask rallies are “common”, but I wouldn’t say they are “extremely rare”, either. A quick google search of “anti-mask rallies” shows recent rallies in Boise, Tulsa, Cincinnati, Columbus, Fresno, Baton Rouge, and Windmere FLA, just to name a few. )

Just to b clear-- I do NOT believe that this "anti-mask" rally in Provo is a commonplace thing. But I do indeed believe the IDEAS that many of them expressed-- and especially the less-extreme and slightly watered-down versions of those ideas-- are indeed dangerously common.

In separate rallies, Utahns protest mask mandate and demand in-person classes

<b>Provo •</b> As she walked up to the podium to speak, one of the moms grabbed a face mask and spit her gum out into it. “It’s garbage,” she shrugged, wadding it up. “It doesn’t work anyway. Not for me and not for my kids.”

www.sltrib.com

EDIT: Below are links to articles (that I picked at random) about a handful of anti-mask rallies. There have been dozens more recent rallies like this across the country.

Anti-Mask Rallies Continue In U.S. Amid Rising Coronavirus Cases And Deaths

“Covid is a hoax. It’s a lie. It’s a political stunt,” said Denna Robertson, 65, of Provo, Utah.

www.google.com

Anti-mask crowd rallies at Ohio Statehouse on Saturday, says doctors are wrong

Various groups gathered at the Statehouse, including militia members, supporters of President Trump, prayer proponents and those who champion Black Lives Matter and civil rights organizations.

www.google.com

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.idahostatesman.com/entertainment/ent-columns-blogs/words-deeds/article244436402.html

Anti-mask protesters rally across the nation

Demonstrators say mask mandates “are against freedom” and wearing face coverings is “an act of submission.”

www.google.com

 

[dieterbrock]

Here is an article from just last week, in Provo Utah. In my opinion, many of the opinions expressed here are not contained to just Provo.

Why?
A post of 30 something people in Utah, (who have amongst the lowest hospitalization and mortality rate) is somehow leading you to "millions"? And further "proof" by providing sensationalized photo ops? Thats not America, thats not a representation of America.
All I'm suggesting is to look with your own eyes, make your own opinions. Not from clickbait articles intended to stroke flames, just because the media doesnt have any integrity, doesnt mean we shouldnt have either

 

[XXXIVwin]

is somehow leading you to "millions"?

No. Polling, common sense, and math did.

Mask debates have been roiling this country (and this thread) for many months now. Mask compliance has increased tremendously, especially in the last few weeks. But to think there is universal masking compliance in the entire USA right now is absurd.

 

[dieterbrock]

No. Polling, common sense, and math did.

Mask debates have been roiling this country (and this thread) for many months now. Mask compliance has increased tremendously, especially in the last few weeks. But to think there is universal masking compliance in the entire USA right now is absurd.

Now who's the straw man? Did I say there was universal compliance? Nope.
I merely disputed your claim that you see millions of Americans “refusing to do a simple act that can probably reduce the spread“
The polls dont show that, and as I stated previously, using results from a poll without knowing what questions were asked is just ludicrous. And extrapolating percentages while disregarding that the environment and results from each state are so vastly different is just ignorant.
I am completely compliant in mask (face covering) wearing, however if asked how often I wear in public, my answer would be in the "sometimes" category. Why? I dont wear while running outdoors, I dont wear while driving alone, I remove my mask after leaving grocery store and am outdoors, socially distanced. See the difference? Of course you do, but you'll choose to disagree

 

[XXXIVwin]

Now who's the straw man? Did I say there was universal compliance? Nope.
I merely disputed your claim that you see millions of Americans “refusing to do a simple act that can probably reduce the spread“
The polls dont show that, and as I stated previously, using results from a poll without knowing what questions were asked is just ludicrous. And extrapolating percentages while disregarding that the environment and results from each state are so vastly different is just ignorant.
I am completely compliant in mask (face covering) wearing, however if asked how often I wear in public, my answer would be in the "sometimes" category. Why? I dont wear while running outdoors, I dont wear while driving alone, I remove my mask after leaving grocery store and am outdoors, socially distanced. See the difference? Of course you do, but you'll choose to disagree

Since as you say you are “completely compliant in mask (face covering) wearing”, IMHO it would be reasonable for u to answer that poll question as “always”.

When people are asked if they wear masks “in public”, IMHO it is reasonable to assume that the phrase “in public” is synonymous with “when other people are nearby”. People have enough common sense to know that the phrasing of the question is based on the common knowledge that the virus is spread by people in close contact, and NOT when they are technically “in a public space” but far away from other people (driving alone, walking in woods, etc).

IMHO most people would interpret the question “Do you wear a mask in public?” as to mean, “Do you wear a mask in public, when other people are nearby?”

 

[dieterbrock]

IMHO it would be reasonable for u to answer that question as “always”.

False
Rarely might even be more appropriate. But glad you are making my point. You consider it concrete despite the question (which we dont even know) being full of ambiguity.
But keep going, you're digging a deeper hole

 

[-X-]

IMHO most people would interpret the question “Do you wear a mask in public?” as to mean, “Do you wear a mask in public, when other people are nearby?”

Can you link the poll in question? In most polls outside of Gallup you can find the specific questions being asked in another document.

 

[XXXIVwin]

False
Rarely might even be more appropriate. But glad you are making my point. You consider it concrete despite the question (which we dont even know) being full of ambiguity.
But keep going, you're digging a deeper hole

Lol, I should have known you weren’t capable of a genuine give-and-take of ideas without resorting to angry bluster. You say you are “completely compliant”, with mask wearing, yet because you insist on a TECHNICALLY LITERAL interpretation of the “wearing in public” question, you’d answer “rarely?”

Whatever, dude. I’ve seen u completely lose your crap with 12inbox, and later with bluecoconuts, and I’m not going to subject myself to more of your vitriol. There is just no point in debating with you because you don’t debate fairly, and your attitude is frequently abusive.

 

[1maGoh]

Since as you say you are “completely compliant in mask (face covering) wearing”, IMHO it would be reasonable for u to answer that poll question as “always”.

When people are asked if they wear masks “in public”, IMHO it is reasonable to assume that the phrase “in public” is synonymous with “when other people are nearby”. People have enough common sense to know that the phrasing of the question is based on the common knowledge that the virus is spread by people in close contact, and NOT when they are technically “in a public space” but far away from other people (driving alone, walking in woods, etc).

IMHO most people would interpret the question “Do you wear a mask in public?” as to mean, “Do you wear a mask in public, when other people are nearby?”

To dieterbrock's point, I would struggle with a question like that simply because it's ambiguous. Unless they specifically stated somewhere that when you're alone doesn't count as "in public" it's open to interpretation. You can never assume that everyone will interpret that the same way you did. I mean, there's a reason why formulating poll questions is actually a big deal. This is one of them.

Also, just because something is perfectly reasonable doesn't mean a majority of the people who run into it will realize that.

 

[XXXIVwin]

Can you link the poll in question? In most polls outside of Gallup you can find the specific questions being asked in another document.

Yeah, I was just looking it up. Kinda disappointed with the wording in it.

Polling on this issue has been somewhat sporadic, and I really wish they had been more specific in how they asked the questions related to masks.

Was gonna go into weeds on numbers, but too tired to do so...

Here’s the raw data from Ipsos poll

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-07/axios-ipsos-poll-w17.pdf

 

[-X-]

Yeah, I was just looking it up. Kinda disappointed with the wording in it.

Polling on this issue has been somewhat sporadic, and I really wish they had been more specific in how they asked the questions related to masks.

Was gonna go into weeds on numbers, but too tired to do so...

Here’s the raw data from Ipsos poll

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-07/axios-ipsos-poll-w17.pdf

I hear ya. Once I started digging into polls (mostly political polls) and followed the trail to the actual questions being asked, and WHO they were asking (mostly random calls to landlines and cellphones in a specific region), it was easy to see that in some cases they were looking for a specific answer. For instance:

Why do you need 3 different ways to express concern? It would seem a better representation of this would be to ask the same question, but to give 3 options - not 5. Very, Somewhat, Not. "Somewhat" and "Not very" are essentially the same thing. "Extremely and Very"? lol. To counter that they should have offered, "Not at all" and "Get the fuck outta here".

 

[dieterbrock]

Lol, I should have known you weren’t capable of a genuine give-and-take of ideas without resorting to angry bluster. You say you are “completely compliant”, with mask wearing, yet because you insist on a TECHNICALLY LITERAL interpretation of the “wearing in public” question, you’d answer “rarely?”

Whatever, dude. I’ve seen u completely lose your crap with 12inbox, and later with bluecoconuts, and I’m not going to subject myself to more of your vitriol. There is just no point in debating with you because you don’t debate fairly, and your attitude is frequently abusive.

No need for personal shots, attack the post not the poster right? If you cant control your emotions, then maybe you should step away?
If I am out in public for 6 hours, and wear my mask for 30 minutes, I am both 100% compliant and rarely wearing the mask. Is that really too complicated to understand?
You were the one who stated "I see millions of Americans refusing to do a simple act that can probably reduce the spread", while stating that you are not rigid and extreme. And yet you are unyielding in your opinion though its based off of ambiguous interpretation of poll results where we dont even know the questions for which the poll is based. All of which is quite contradictory of the idea that with numbers, context is everything

 

[-X-]

Most of the BLM protests I've seen have people who are masked and it's gotten to the point that I've seen footage of people either giving out masks or asking people without masks to use social distancing guidelines.

I have seen Open Carry and All Lives Matter protests happen and they're just as you say... no one wearing a mask and no intention. That's just dumb. How many people do we have to see screaming into a camera "I ain't wearin' no damn mask" only to end up dead a month later from COVID??? I'd rather that not happen to anyone.

lol. I don't know how I missed this. I need to read more closely, I guess. I find it amusing (to say the least) that you actually assign mask virtuousness to one group - presumably because of the cause - and find irresponsibility with another - presumably because of the cause. I don't know what protests you're watching, but that's not what's happening (following guidelines). But hey, at least everyone is having a good time in the name of (whatever).


View: https://twitter.com/vashon_photo/status/1286487094291030016

 

[thirteen28]

Taken yesterday.

Example set.

 

[snackdaddy]

That doesn't actually appear to be the case. If you look at Sweden they didn't shut down and their economy took the same type of hit as their neighbors who did shut down, only they had a ton more cases and deaths. The only thing to save the economy is to beat the virus.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I hear ya. Once I started digging into polls (mostly political polls) and followed the trail to the actual questions being asked, and WHO they were asking (mostly random calls to landlines and cellphones in a specific region), it was easy to see that in some cases they were looking for a specific answer. For instance:

View attachment 37674

Why do you need 3 different ways to express concern? It would seem a better representation of this would be to ask the same question, but to give 3 options - not 5. Very, Somewhat, Not. "Somewhat" and "Not very" are essentially the same thing. "Extremely and Very"? lol. To counter that they should have offered, "Not at all" and "Get the fuck outta here".

I feel like I’m gonna piss you off by replying to you all the time now, but since this is stuff I deal sometimes in my work, I feel it’s good to point out.

That’s pretty standard in terms of polling really. The reason why you give scales is to make it easier for people to figure out which side they lean on.

If I say “Do you think Covid is a threat?” and offer you a yes or no, that would be a better example of a bad piece of data sampling, because it’s too vague. Threat to who? Me? Old people? Immune compromised?

Am I concerned, Yes or no? Well, shit most of the days I just do what I do with my masks and gloves, I don’t feel concerned on a day to day basis, that’s my perspective, but I recognize the risk to others.

I‘m currently sitting alone in my lab, secure doors separate me from anyone else, I’m not concerned about getting shot. A few years ago when UCLA had the murder suicide a few doors down from the class I was teaching, I moved everyone into a more securable room, and sat there on a chair near a window because I heard the gunshots and figured what it was immediately before the cops cleared the place. I wasn’t concerned about getting shot there either, but I’d move up a slot on the scale, even if it wasn’t from a no to a yes. I would answer no again when I was taking cover behind a Bradley Fighting Vehicle during a firefight while rounds bounced off the other side of the vic. Small arms fire isn’t gonna scratch the surface let alone punch through. But that was a literal firefight with people shooting at me. My perspective behind cover made me feel safe.

So that’s why they will have a sliding scale, makes it easier for people to plot themselves.

Another example of a poor question would be like a poll I got some some terrible pollster that basically asked the question “do you support ___ or do you hate America?” Obviously a fucking terrible question.

But it’s no worse than “Covid-19 has lead to millions of infections and thousands dying, with tens of thousands of new infections happening every day in various states around the country, how concerned are you?” Which is a question that dumps scary information to try to sway your vote.

Their question seemed pretty flat. How concerned, if at all, are you? Here’s a sliding scale to plot yourself.

 

[-X-]

I feel like I’m gonna piss you off by replying to you all the time now, but since this is stuff I deal sometimes in my work, I feel it’s good to point out.

That’s pretty standard in terms of polling really. The reason why you give scales is to make it easier for people to figure out which side they lean on.

If I say “Do you think Covid is a threat?” and offer you a yes or no, that would be a better example of a bad piece of data sampling, because it’s too vague. Threat to who? Me? Old people? Immune compromised?

Am I concerned, Yes or no? Well, shit most of the days I just do what I do with my masks and gloves, I don’t feel concerned on a day to day basis, that’s my perspective, but I recognize the risk to others.

I‘m currently sitting alone in my lab, secure doors separate me from anyone else, I’m not concerned about getting shot. A few years ago when UCLA had the murder suicide a few doors down from the class I was teaching, I moved everyone into a more securable room, and sat there on a chair near a window because I heard the gunshots and figured what it was immediately before the cops cleared the place. I wasn’t concerned about getting shot there either, but I’d move up a slot on the scale, even if it wasn’t from a no to a yes. I would answer no again when I was taking cover behind a Bradley Fighting Vehicle during a firefight while rounds bounced off the other side of the vic. Small arms fire isn’t gonna scratch the surface let alone punch through. But that was a literal firefight with people shooting at me. My perspective behind cover made me feel safe.

So that’s why they will have a sliding scale, makes it easier for people to plot themselves.

Another example of a poor question would be like a poll I got some some terrible pollster that basically asked the question “do you support ___ or do you hate America?” Obviously a fucking terrible question.

But it’s no worse than “Covid-19 has lead to millions of infections and thousands dying, with tens of thousands of new infections happening every day in various states around the country, how concerned are you?” Which is a question that dumps scary information to try to sway your vote.

Their question seemed pretty flat. How concerned, if at all, are you? Here’s a sliding scale to plot yourself.

You couldn't piss me off. You're my bae.

I wasn't really asking for a binary choice on that one question I posed as an example though. Sliding scales are needed, sure, but not when two answers are basically the same thing and then categorized as one or the other based on the response. And then 3 negative responses pitted against two positives? I could be splitting hairs, I guess. It's possible, pig. I might be bluffing. It's conceivable, you miserable vomitous mass, that I'm only lying here because I lack the strength to stand.

 

[RamBall]

Well whether its karma or just life, covid finally entered my life. I started feeling off last Monday at work, sore throat and just not right. Got home and within an hr was on the phone with an advice nurse. I tested on Friday the 17th, after 3 days of the worst sore throat I have ever had. From Saturday the 18th through today I have had mild flu like symptoms, dizziness and nausea, no fever the entire time. Last night I got my test results, positive for covid. Today I feel the best I have since this started but still not 100%. My wife has been quarantined in the same house the last 2 weeks, she has not had any symptoms. So I'm not quite the bad ass I thought I was, but I expect to fully recover in the next few days. Probably return to work next week. But now we will see what I do about wearing a mask in the grocery store, thats really the only place I go besides work were a mask would be recommended. I was thinking I've had it I'm not worried, but not sure if that means I couldnt bring it back home to my wife, or if she would get it if I did bring it home again.

 

[12intheBox]

Sorry @RamBall - this sucks. We will all be here hoping for a speedy and a full recovery for you.

 

[RamBall]

Sorry @RamBall - this sucks. We will all be here hoping for a speedy and a full recovery for you.

Thank you. This morning I told my wife well now I gotta go eat crow. It was worse on me than I expected, but luckily nowhere near as bad as it is for many people that are in the ICUs in my area currently. Our county is now a major hot spot in NorCal and the deaths have been climbing the past month or so.