Covid 19 thread

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Mackeyser

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I don't disagree with the social contract, but as you say, that's only in good times. There is no smooth flow of an ever increasingly more civil compact with one another. It's an illusion that we all like in Western society. I respect the rights of women and enjoy the equality of our imperfect society, but I know (as do you) how quickly civility goes away when a victor sweeps over conquered territory. Property confiscation, rape, murder by a foreign army through civilian areas dispels the illusion of civility, and there are no "good" guys as far as this goes. Western forces were just as guilty as Soviets in 1945 Europe, among friends and foes.

It's savage, but survival of the fittest still reigns.

I don't disagree with any of that.

My point was that we aren't remotely close to that point and I'd rather we reinforce having a society than get a head start of the post apocalyptic dystopia.
 

dieterbrock

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My only point is... yes, I agree with Old School insofar as numbers are important only when they are interpreted within a specific context.
Thats not what this comment said, or did you forget already?
Yeah, and I *cringe* when I see millions of Americans refusing to do a simple act that can probably reduce the spread. We just disagree on this, man.
So make up your mind
 

dieterbrock

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As usual, you are including personal insults in your posts. Please cut it out. If you are too angry to post without resorting to personal insults, take a break from this thread for awhile.

You asked a direct question, which was this: "you are alone in your car driving, you are out in public. Are YOU wearing a mask? You are outdoors where social distancing of well over 6 feet is easily accomplished, are YOU wearing a mask?"

You asked a direct question, I gave a direct answer: "No. Of course not."
You call me a straw man and then say I’m throwing out personal insults?
That’s rich
 

Corbin

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WTF?! THATS MY DR’s OFFICE!

Great now I won’t be able to get my medications now...

Yeah. If by some miracle, the NBA goes off without a hitch, I think the NFL players will consider it, but if it goes the way I think it will... I mean...they're in FL...as am I... then I think they'll end up scrapping the season because there's no safe way to do it.

Also, as AD said, it's not fun to not play in front of fans and there's simply no way that they will be able to have fans in any kind of venue unless this country belligerently locked down even harder than before for 8 full weeks.

That's not gonna happen, so...

I mean, this is 2020 so, honestly, I've given up trying to use my pattern recognition powers for...anything.

If 2020 were a D&D character, they'd be Chaotic Evil...
Bullshit! I’d say Neutral Evil with a Rune Sword and britches of hardness on!
 

Mackeyser

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*cringe*

Now everybody is intent on making the face mask into a physical badge of tribal identity, and wearing the mask is now about publicly distinguishing the virtuous, even though it does nothing in casual public settings. Fuck sakes. Just to prove a point to my buddy Nick at work today, I wore a mask made of cheese-cloth into Whole Foods (because you can't go in otherwise in Greenville), and nobody said fuck all. It was worthless, but I was nonetheless virtuous.

Why cheesecloth? That's what we use to strain slightly contaminated hydro oil, so I have a ton of it.

Well, I dunno what you mean about the casual settings, but...and I can't stress this enough... masks work.

Are people being tribal and stupid? Well sure, it's a day that ends in 'y'. That doesn't change anything regarding the masks.

As for the "choking on one's CO2" thing earlier... just...c'mon. Surgeons can be in surgery for 12 hours or more without a break and it's no big deal, but fucking Karen has to spend 20 minutes inside a grocery store with one on and she's convinced without any information that she's deprived of oxygen and she's choking on her own CO2?

Maybe I don't get the joke.

Lots of people aren't smart and coupled with our antipathy towards expertise, people devolve into tribalism and inanity? Well, okay. I'm with ya so far.

But them being idiots doesn't change the science.
 

Mackeyser

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Sure, a wide range from asymptomatic to death. However the numbers across the board reflect clearly who is low risk, moderate risk, high risk and extreme risk. As with all things there are outliers and exceptions, especially when using a number as large as the global population.

Michael Jordan won a playoff game with the flu. Lol i joke but lets not pretend that Covid is going to ravage the player population in terms of illness to the point of them dropping like flies or being subject to any long term problems. I mean, CTE is real. No one cares, they continue to play.

My point is that a league full of asymptomatic or a small pocket of slightly ill athletes is not that different from any other year. It's not a big deal, AS LONG AS THEY'RE IN A BUBBLE ENVIRONMENT that doesn't spread to the 60 year old press agent who's 30 lbs overweight, the 50 year old coach who has diabetes, the players 80 year old grandmother etc.

You know where i stand on this. This virus is serious. It's a potentially deadly threat but its also very deliberate and to be honest, quite predictable in terms of who needs to be protected, vigilant and self responsible. 20-30 year old professional athletes aren't those people.

Off the NFL for a minute. It aggravates me when i see blowback media reports of so many children and the 20-45 age range testing positive for Covid as somehow being evidence that everyone needs to be afraid, and evidence that this is not an overwhelmingly deadly virus to the elderly and weak which it is.

Well yeah, of course the 20-45 range is going to be extremely high in terms of Covid positive. This virus is everywhere and the 20-45 age range is the workforce that has been out there in the public since this began. Rising case numbers don't mean anything in terms of how serious this is. Neither do death numbers unless you break it down.

If Covid was killing newborns, children and young people and the risk decreased as the age increased, and instead we had an asymptomatic population of senior citizens, i wonder how this landscape would look. Would it be politicized? I think not. Would we be far more deliberate and surgical in terms of how we combat the virus? I think so. Hard to say though and IMO we are very lucky that this virus does discriminate.

Well, we don't really have tons of data on kids, especially how they interact socially because we closed the schools fairly early on. That's the one thing epidemiologists are concerned with.

In one study, while the overall population positive rate was at the time 11%, the positivity rate among kids 2-18 was 30%. The point wasn't to make any claims about communication rates or anything beyond there is a data set which creates doubt that kids are essentially immune.

And as one who lives in FL, if COVID were killing newborns, children and young adults, you can bet your ass that the elderly here in FL and AZ would be losing their shit at the slightest inconvenience to their day. I mean, there was just a video of an elderly person coughing on a baby. The elderly, especially in FL are freaking savages...

i used to really like and respect old people. After spending 11 years in FL... yeah... not so much, anymore... Even as I'm rapidly approaching being one...
 

Mackeyser

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Over 2000 children die every year in car crashes. Driving is a privilege, so we could solve all of those preventable deaths by just taking the bus? Are you kidding me?

CONTEXT.

C'mon man, we talked about this.

3000 died in 9/11 and 600,000 die every year of heart disease.

Is the impact less because of the body count?

I KNOW you can make better arguments than this...

I say this as an asthmatic who gets claustrophobic in masks bordering on panic attacks which only get worse if I have a migraine at the time... I really, REALLY don't like the masks.

Dying a COVID death is infinitely worse.
 

Loyal

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Well, we don't really have tons of data on kids, especially how they interact socially because we closed the schools fairly early on. That's the one thing epidemiologists are concerned with.

In one study, while the overall population positive rate was at the time 11%, the positivity rate among kids 2-18 was 30%. The point wasn't to make any claims about communication rates or anything beyond there is a data set which creates doubt that kids are essentially immune.

And as one who lives in FL, if COVID were killing newborns, children and young adults, you can bet your ass that the elderly here in FL and AZ would be losing their shit at the slightest inconvenience to their day. I mean, there was just a video of an elderly person coughing on a baby. The elderly, especially in FL are freaking savages...

i used to really like and respect old people. After spending 11 years in FL... yeah... not so much, anymore... Even as I'm rapidly approaching being one...
welp, old New Yorkers are gonna do that
 

Loyal

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Believe it or not, none of us get out of this life alive. Accidents happen, diseases come from seemingly from nowhere, wars happen. We can't live our lives afraid. Get Covid and deal with the symptoms if you can and don't guilt trip people that are living as they always have. Stay at home if you are worried so much.
I'm sure,Mac...
 

Mackeyser

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Oh. I just realized that you think I *cringed* at your post.
No, it was the tweet you linked in your post.

Yes, I know that's the message now. (though, no message on how mass protests are fucking up the plan). That aside, continuously I posted examples of how we were told the opposite earlier in the year. Redfield is among the people who responded with "no" when asked if people should be wearing masks - as seen (here). Redfield also recently stated that kids should go back to school, because "having the schools actually closed is a greater public health threat to the children than having the schools reopen." Do you agree with that? Because the Executive branch used his statement to bolster its position on schools reopening, and now the executive is a potential murderer while Redfield remains a fabled hero of infectious disease.

And I'll say this again. I'm not anti-mask. I wear it when I'm asked to; and even where it's not required, and I see tons of people wearing them, I'll do the same in order to make them feel safer and to foster a sense of community. I'm not the guy causing a scene at a store demanding my liberties remain unmolested. I just want to uncover the truth, and any subsequent untruths I find along the way.

I'll get to the CDC website later today. Just wanted to make those couple of clarifications.

Okay...

Part of the reason that what he said is true (in the blue) is because there is abuse in homes which is mitigated by time at school, so for kids in that situation, more time at home = more abuse.

Also, there are kids in poverty where the ONLY meals they were getting were the school supplied breakfast and lunch.

The answer isn't to send the kids back to school during the pandemic where creating an entirely foreign learning environment is likely to be rife with unintended consequences and trauma, but maybe... I dunno... just maybe ACTUALLY dealing with the abuse and hunger issues.

The Gov't just literally made from thin air and gave away $2T dollars not including the bolstering of the stock market by an additional $4T. But we can't feed the kids of this country or take care of our children.

Why are we only Americans in sports and war, but otherwise, they're YOUR kids... like, their AMERICAN if they win a medal, but someone else's problem if they're hungry?

I don't get that thinking.

Not taking aim at you, just the sentiment. I really struggle with that.

And can we leave the protests out of it? That's squarely political and there are plenty of other examples for everyone to chew on without going down that rabbit hole.
 

Loyal

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CONTEXT.

C'mon man, we talked about this.

3000 died in 9/11 and 600,000 die every year of heart disease.

Is the impact less because of the body count?

I KNOW you can make better arguments than this...

I say this as an asthmatic who gets claustrophobic in masks bordering on panic attacks which only get worse if I have a migraine at the time... I really, REALLY don't like the masks.

Dying a COVID death is infinitely worse.
You missed my point. Driving is a privilege, period. We can get draconian about that and save lives, because it's not essential. We might think it is because it represents liberty to most (especially when the privilege to drive is taken away.)

Like I mentioned earlier in this monstrously long thread, I am enduring the discomfort of restricted breathing at the job. This weekend, I'll be coughing in that damn mask after 4 hours into a 12 hour shift. I am not sure if it was you that quoted a SCOTUS case about strapping down a person that didn't want a vaccine and giving it to them. The very idea that a state could force someone to wear a mask, is utter bullshit and I will always believe that. I am doing it now because I choose to, hoping some vaccine will come, but I will NOT do this in a open ended way without some sort of endgame. Saying that mask wearing for years is insane (not saying you said that, but others have).
 

Mackeyser

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Now this is a lady that takes her masks very serious.

19442.jpg

Well, I dunno her situation, but if she's just an avg person, then yeah... that's just... wasteful. Reminds me of this stupid craze...
popped-collar-2.jpg
 

Mackeyser

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You missed my point. Driving is a privilege, period. We can get draconian about that and save lives, because it's not essential. We might think it is because it represents liberty to most (especially when the privilege to drive is taken away.)

Like I mentioned earlier in this monstrously long thread, I am enduring the discomfort of restricted breathing at the job. This weekend, I'll be coughing in that damn mask after 4 hours into a 12 hour shift. I am not sure if it was you that quoted a SCOTUS case about strapping down a person that didn't want a vaccine and giving it to them. The very idea that a state could force someone to wear a mask, is utter bullshit and I will always believe that. I am doing it now because I choose to, hoping some vaccine will come, but I will NOT do this in a open ended way without some sort of endgame. Saying that mask wearing for years is insane (not saying you said that, but others have).

Yeah, it was me... Jacobson v Massachusetts. The SCOTUS held (and continues to hold) that it is within the police powers of the state to mandate a vaccine if the safety of the community is at risk.

Actually, when I found out about this, I wasn't too happy, either.

I'm not quoting it because I agree with it, but because it's the law of the land.

We'd likely agree that there are plenty of laws that shouldn't be (we'd likely have some in common and some not), but I can't really address that.

It is the law and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't mandate everyone get the COVID vaccine in order to ensure everyone gets back to work... and YES, that would include having zero recourse if you get sick and/or die (I"m a little sensitive on that point for obvious reasons).

I think we agree that we'd like this mask stuff to be over.

The way for it to be over is clear and distinct. EVERYONE has to wear a mask and after 8 weeks of extreme diligence, we should be done with it.

Been saying this since March, iirc, but yeah. Basically, we control our destiny. We can make this end any time we want. Part of the reason other countries are basically over it is because they've done just that.
 

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Yeah, it was me... Jacobson v Massachusetts. The SCOTUS held (and continues to hold) that it is within the police powers of the state to mandate a vaccine if the safety of the community is at risk.

Actually, when I found out about this, I wasn't too happy, either.

I'm not quoting it because I agree with it, but because it's the law of the land.

We'd likely agree that there are plenty of laws that shouldn't be (we'd likely have some in common and some not), but I can't really address that.

It is the law and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't mandate everyone get the COVID vaccine in order to ensure everyone gets back to work... and YES, that would include having zero recourse if you get sick and/or die (I"m a little sensitive on that point for obvious reasons).

I think we agree that we'd like this mask stuff to be over.

The way for it to be over is clear and distinct. EVERYONE has to wear a mask and after 8 weeks of extreme diligence, we should be done with it.

Been saying this since March, iirc, but yeah. Basically, we control our destiny. We can make this end any time we want. Part of the reason other countries are basically over it is because they've done just that.
As far as the SCOTUS case, how can the state enforce that a mask is worn? Staple it to your head? Or put you in the same jail from which law breakers were released because of Covid?
 

XXXIVwin

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You call me a straw man and then say I’m throwing out personal insults?
That’s rich
I assumed you were familiar with the phrase “straw man.”

“Straw man” refers to the argument you put forth, and NOT to you personally.

Here’s one definition:

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.

I have expressed concern that millions of Americans don’t wear masks “in public” when they cannot socially distance AND they have a considerable risk of infection. But are my beliefs so rigid and nonsensical that I believe people should wear masks “in public” when they are driving alone in their cars? No, of course not. Implying so is an example of “setting up a straw man and then knocking it down.”

I think @Memento put it well when he said, it’s ok to attack the argument, but it’s never ok to attack the poster.

Cheers
 
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Mackeyser

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As far as the SCOTUS case, how can the state enforce that a mask is worn? Staple it to your head? Or put you in the same jail from which law breakers were released because of Covid?

How? In the worst, least equitable and very often abused way possible...duh. I can't even blue font that.

Look at seat belts. How many people have been pulled over for that? How much really crappy stuff has started with a seat belt stop?

What I was trying to get to is that we should all jump on this mask deal voluntarily because they could always make it mandatory. That's a thing.

I don't think we're as far off in thinking as this latest bit of exchange may make it seem.

I mean, my idea of what to do with lottery winnings is to buy a legacy ranch with a solidly bougie house/mansion, arm myself to the teeth and only interact with people who don't live on the ranch when it suits me...

I literally joined the Navy to serve...no college. I was the only "idealist" in my company. Everyone else was college or a job except for one guy who was the son of an Army Colonel and he ended up not long after A school at Annapolis.

Honestly, imho, if there were one person who were to represent liberty in this country over the last 20 years... it'd be SCOTT STERLING.

Anyway, not saying anything they could do is a good idea, just reminding everyone that they can, no matter how good or bad an idea it may be, make all these asks mandatory...which turns it into a tell, I guess?
 

Mackeyser

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I'm sure,Mac...

Yeah... I'm not gonna YOLO my way into COVID. I'll pass.

If this were a sickness buffet, my plate is already overflowing. No room on the plate for COVID. And I promised myself only one plate. I made a New Year's resolution and everything...
 

dieterbrock

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I assumed you were familiar with the phrase “straw man.”

“Straw man” refers to the argument you put forth, and NOT to you personally.

Here’s one definition:

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.

I have expressed concern that millions of Americans don’t wear masks “in public” when they cannot socially distance AND they have a considerable risk of infection. But are my beliefs so rigid and nonsensical that I believe people should wear masks “in public” when they are driving alone in their cars? No, of course not. Implying so is an example of “setting up a straw man and then knocking it down.”

I think @Memento put it well when he said, it’s ok to attack the argument, but it’s never ok to attack the poster.

Cheers
Yes I am familiar with The term straw man. And when used incorrectly, and knowingly so, it is an insult. As you applied it.
So grow up and take responsibility for your words and actions.
 
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