Single Biggest Factor Holding this Team Back

[iced]

i'm really trying to understand you iced.. you keep arguing that our WR core sucks across this board... what if we draft Watkins and he didn't produce?

Well, for starters lets address this. Sure I was Pro watkins - guess what, I was also Pro Evans...And I also said I had hoped, at the very least, we address the position somehow even if we don't go Watkins or Evans... I also had hoped for Beckham at #13, but he went before that.. I had hoped for Jordan Matthews as a possibility in the 2nd or 3rd..he was snatched up quick...Even Monte Crief, Martavis Bryant,etc. There were a number of receivers that I felt would be an improvement in production over the current corps. Especially since we know what we have in certain players (pettis).

 

[iced]

Givens ceiling is Mike Wallace... he is not the kind of WR that will win battles. Hes TY Hilton... he has to have the ball put on him. Hes not physical... thats not his game. Clemens was crazy bad at times just limited and didn't have the arm that teams respected. Oh boy Clemens was a huge factor in the passing game issues last year

Ty Hilton is way more than just a deep threat - he showed that when Reggie Went down... And Givens is ceiling is not Wallace imo, thats a bit high.

 

[scifiman]

Nobody gets banned for that. I will say it again. There is a HUGE difference of being critical of a player and railing on one. I think we both know the difference.

Has anyone been banned for railing on "one" player? I see plenty of railing on Pead for example or Quick or Givens or Richardson. I see this regarding Schotty too. Is Bradford off limits? I am not anti Bradford but if stats and injuries and other deficiencies are pointed out on in his game is this railing against him? I know this may seem like nit picking but playing favorites with players is not what I am about. I am an equal opportunity critic when it comes to the players. Sure I would like to see some succeed more than others due to their background story etc. but I realize it is a business and you have to evaluate with logic and common sense too and not become emotionally attached to any player.

 

[iced]

Has anyone been banned for railing on "one" player? I see plenty of railing on Pead for example or Quick or Givens or Richardson. I see this regarding Schotty too. Is Bradford off limits? I am not anti Bradford but if stats and injuries and other deficiencies are pointed on in his game is this railing against him? I know this may seem like nit picking but playing favorites with players is not what I am about. I am an equal opportunity critic when it comes to the players. Sure I would like to see some succeed more than others due to their background story etc. but I realize it is a business and you have to evaluate with logic and common sense too and not become emotionally attached to any player.

The only people I've seen get banned are blatant trolls and those who continue to resort to attacking posters individually vs the actual content

 

[ED_29]

Ty Hilton is way more than just a deep threat - he showed that when Reggie Went down... And Givens is ceiling is not Wallace imo, thats a bit high.

not IMO he is a carbon copy of Givens... again I think what you are missing is he had Andrew Luck delivering the ball to him and capable of putting the ball on him and utilizing his speed and Givens had Clemens. You have to know that Clemens is physically incapable of doing the same things right?

 

[iced]

not IMO he is a carbon copy of Givens... again I think what you are missing is he had Andrew Luck delivering the ball to him and capable of putting the ball on him and utilizing his speed and Givens had Clemens. You have to know that Clemens is physically incapable of doing the same things right?

Well first off, I'd argue Wallace is faster, better route runner, gaining separation, and sadly even has better hands (lower drop percentage).

Love how we blame all this on Clemens - but yet Givens still has 0 Td's in his last 12 or 13 games with Bradford as starting QB. You telling me that's the production you want from the receiver that's on the field the most?

BTW - There are plenty of other starting receivers in the NFL that had different back ups, including even worse qb's at times, yet still managed to get into the endzone... Rod Streater from Oakland is an Example - and he's not even considered a #1 threat... Matt Mcgloin/Pryor/etc.

 

[PhxRam]

Has anyone been banned for railing on "one" player? I see plenty of railing on Pead for example or Quick or Givens or Richardson. I see this regarding Schotty too. Is Bradford off limits? I am not anti Bradford but if stats and injuries and other deficiencies are pointed on in his game is this railing against him? I know this may seem like nit picking but playing favorites with players is not what I am about. I am an equal opportunity critic when it comes to the players. Sure I would like to see some succeed more than others due to their background story etc. but I realize it is a business and you have to evaluate with logic and common sense too and not become emotionally attached to any player.

No Bradford is not off limits, and the entire quote from the start suggesting it, should be removed because it has been misconstrued.

 

[ED_29]

Well first off, I'd argue Wallace is faster, better route runner, gaining separation, and sadly even has better hands (lower drop percentage).

Love how we blame all this on Clemens - but yet Givens still has 0 Td's in his last 12 or 13 games with Bradford as starting QB. You telling me that's the production you want from the receiver that's on the field the most?

You mean Wallace runs a better go route than Givens? Wallace is also a one trick pony. So was Flipper Anderson (don't know how long you have been a Ram fan)... so one trick ponies are what they are. Some are really good at being one trick ponies.

IDK man <shrug> I really do think you are underestimating how limited Clemens was. As far as Givens with Bradford and still not having any TDs I recall that early on Givens was primaryly being used as a decoy to run defense off to open up that spread offesnse underneath... and teams respected Givens and his speed and were rolling coverage to account for him. I like to think Givens rookie season showed what he is truly capable of when he has a QB that can take advantage of his very obvious strength and that is getting vertical

 

[iced]

You mean Wallace runs a better go route than Givens? Wallace is also a one trick pony. So was Flipper Anderson (don't know how long you have been a Ram fan)... so one trick ponies are what they are. Some are really good at being one trick ponies.

If Givens were on the same level as Wallace, it would be reflected in his stats, especially with Bradford. But that's not the case. Givens is not really good at being one trick pony, and even if he were, I don't believe a one trick pony should be your #1 starter..he should be a role player, a'la Kenny Stills in new orleans.

IDK man <shrug> I really do think you are underestimating how limited Clemens was. As far as Givens with Bradford and still not having any TDs I recall that early on Givens was primaryly being used as a decoy to run defense off to open up that spread offesnse underneath... and teams respected Givens and he speed and were rolling coverage to account for him. I like to think Givens rookie season showed what he is truly capable of when he has a QB that can take advantage of his very obvious strength and that is getting vertical

I think overestimate Givens' ability. I've watched him plenty, both with and without Bradford. Givens was not used as a "decoy" - he wasn't getting open... Which reminds me of a another big reason why we need better starting caliber receivers.... look at who covered him week 1 - patrick peterson... The Talent Gap between those two is laughbale.

I noticed safeties accounting for Tavon more often than I did Givens...The Fact that Tavon out produced Givens in almost half as many snaps should really say volumes about your starting receiver.

 

[scifiman]

The only people I've seen get banned are blatant trolls and those who continue to resort to attacking posters individually vs the actual content

Now that I understand. Not acceptable to personally attack.

 

[-X-]

I noticed safeties accounting for Tavon more often than I did Givens...The Fact that Tavon out produced Givens in almost half as many snaps should really say volumes about your starting receiver.

All you did was make his point. Were it not for Givens being a deep threat, and teams having to account for that by rolling coverage, Tavon Austin doesn't have the opportunities underneath. I don't think you're getting what people are saying about a team full of role players being as effective as having what people subjectively identify as a "true #1." There are plenty of ways to do it in this league. We're doing it one of those ways.

 

[iced]

All you did was make his point. Were it not for Givens being a deep threat, and teams having to account for that by rolling coverage, Tavon Austin doesn't have the opportunities underneath. I don't think you're getting what people are saying about a team full of role players being as effective as having what people subjectively identify as a "true #1." There are plenty of ways to do it in this league. We're doing it one of those ways.

No you misunderstood what I was saying. The Safeties leaned toward Covering Tavon, especially when he went deep - they weren't as concerned with Givens.

Givens does not separate well, and i don't recall him getting a ton of double coverage. I saw Tavon get it more

 

[scifiman]

Found an article for a year and a half ago about the Seattle offense that I think sums it up. Are we going down the same road and really what is the difference between our personnel and theirs? I thought our OL was superior to theirs last year. I also thought our receivers were better overall. So what was the difference offensively between Seattle and the Rams? The qb was. Wilson can make a botched play a positive one. He can improvise. It is what is needed in today's game. A qb who can extend plays. See the article here http://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/12/27/3808788/an-old-favorite-returns-to-the-seahawks-offense

 

[scifiman]

No you misunderstood what I was saying. The Safeties leaned toward Covering Tavon, especially when he went deep - they weren't as concerned with Givens.

Givens does not separate well, and i don't recall him getting a ton of double coverage. I saw Tavon get it more

I know everyone says they saw this and saw that during the games and am wondering if you are watching the games on tv or have coaches film. Watching on tv does not isolate and so you cant see everything happening on the filed and who is open etc. I would love to get a hold of the real game film to analyze to see if what people are saying is really true.

 

[ED_29]

If Givens were on the same level as Wallace, it would be reflected in his stats, especially with Bradford. But that's not the case. Givens is not really good at being one trick pony, and even if he were, I don't believe a one trick pony should be your #1 starter..he should be a role player, a'la Kenny Stills in new orleans.


I think overestimate Givens' ability. I've watched him plenty, both with and without Bradford. Givens was not used as a "decoy" - he wasn't getting open... Which reminds me of a another big reason why we need better starting caliber receivers.... look at who covered him week 1 - patrick peterson... The Talent Gap between those two is laughbale.

I noticed safeties accounting for Tavon more often than I did Givens...The Fact that Tavon out produced Givens in almost half as many snaps should really say volumes about your starting receiver.

Again think about what Givens does and think about what Wallace does and then imagine Clemens trying to get him the ball. IDK man if you don't understand that part or we can't even agree that Clemens stregths are not a match for what Givens does well then we really don't have much to go on about <shrug>

It becomes pointless. Bradford has the arm to go vertical to Givens. Clemens does and did not. Again all you have to do is go back to those road games against SF and AZ

In any case it doesn't matter what we think... Fisher likes Givens and believes in him just like he believes in Sam. Also for the record I do believe Givens could be a 2 and will be until Bailey can beat him out... and I haven't seen a large enough sample to go there yet

 

[iced]

I know everyone says they saw this and saw that during the games and am wondering if you are watching the games on tv or have coaches film. Watching on tv does not isolate and so you cant see everything happening on the filed and who is open etc. I would love to get a hold of the real game film to analyze to see if what people are saying is really true.

Yes I have all-22 film on game rewind. But on a fair amount of plays the do enough different angles to see whats going on down field.

 

[iced]

Again think about what Givens does and think about what Wallace does and then imagine Clemens trying to get him the ball. IDK man if you don't understand that part or we can't even agree that Clemens stregths and not a match for what Givens does well then we really don't have much to go on about.

It becomes pointless. Bradford has the arm to go vertical to Givens. Clemens does and did not

So then whats the excuse when Bradford is his qb? Givens hasn't scored since Week 12 in the 2012 season, or in his last 12 with Bradford...and is on a current 22 game scoreless streak

Hell Kenny Britt found the redzone more recently than him.

 

[ED_29]

how many TDs wen

So then whats the excuse when Bradford is his qb? Givens hasn't scored since Week 12 in the 2012 season, or in his last 12 with Bradford...and is on a current 22 game scoreless streak

Hell Kenny Britt found the redzone more recently than him.

I'm not sure ... the Rams sure didn't throw the ball a ton deep last year until about game 5 or so right?

I mean you want to kick the guy because of his 2nd season but what about what he did in the first. I mean to dismiss his first season seems drastic. In fact google his fist season and compare it to Wallace. I think you might find it pretty interesting

 

[lockdnram21]

I don't buy it because I remember the team with Bradford. Plenty of drops, were #2 in the league went bradford went down. Givens couldn't separate, Quick missed countless sight adjustments and hot reads in additions to his drops, etc.

And don't give me the Clemens holding them back excuse - Givens and Hakeem Nicks were the only starting receivers in the league to go without a touchdown..Plenty of other receivers managed to find themselves into the end zone - hell their own teammates did with less opportunities.

Givens is what he is - a role player, a one trick Pony. He should not be a starter. Quick is not there yet and there's no telling if he'll ever put it together because he shows occasional flashes, but is so inconsistent. Pettis is what he is, a JAG. Bailey? 2 or 3 games is not enough for me, especially since he was filling in for Tavon's role.

Clemens sucks throwing the ball down the field. Quick had 2 drops and missed 1 hot read.

 

[iced]

Clemens sucks throwing the ball down the field. Quick had 2 drops and missed 1 hot read.

you really believe quick only had 1 missed hot read/sight adjustment?