Jameis Winston Just Doesn't Get It

[jrry32]

Define known. I like to think myself as fairly knowledgable about FBS ball. Never heard of the guy. And I'm a baseball fanatic and never heard of him getting drafted by the Rangers. So what you're saying is, either the girl was a crazy sports aficionado or she meticulously planned this? Please....She'd have to dumb then to start the allegations now if A. She wanted money or B. Wanted to ruin his career.

And the reason it smells even worse is because Winston can't help but make headlines for being an idiot and brushing up against either the law or school policy or common sense behavior.

Athos, I don't know where you live but at a school like Florida or Florida State, if you pull the #1 QB prospect, they're going to be well known at that college to anyone that likes football. I don't know if that girl was a football fan or not. But if she was, odds are that she had heard his name before.

That all said, I'm not accusing her of wanting money or to ruin his career. I just dismissed money as a motivation at the time in my previous point so there's no argument here on that. I said she might have been number chasing(trust me, I've seen plenty of that). Was she? I don't know.

I completely agree. As fans we flip flop on draft picks all the time.

Remember how awesome everyone said it was if we were in a position to take Clowney? Well, some bad things come out about him, and all of the sudden nobody wants him. Alshon? Oh no...he's too lazy.

Now we are going through the same thing with Winston. I love his game, and he'd have to have a bad year ON THE FIELD for him to not be worthy of a top pick in my eyes. If we get him midway through the first, all the better.

Agreed. And ironically, I defended both those guys too. Guess I'm just the Rams Forum Defense Attorney of Scorned Athletes haha.

 

[jrry32]

Athos I don't know if you agree with me on this but like the case in Ohio doesn't this smell like date rape drug to you?

Here's my issue with it, Les. The girl is 19 years old, she's blonde and she's attractive enough for a guy like Winston to take home. Which means that she's probably in good shape(thin). She admitted that "she 'shared' 5 or 6 mixed drinks with friends". Even assuming that she didn't understate the amount of drinks she had, that's a lot for a 19 year old female. A female friend of mine got drunk on 2 Mang-o-ritas. Which are basically the equivalent of a strong beer. After 4 Mang-o-ritas, she could barely walk.

If this girl is a lightweight, 5 or 6 mixed drinks is going to put her in black out territory.

 

[LesBaker]

Here's my issue with it, Les. The girl is 19 years old, she's blonde and she's attractive enough for a guy like Winston to take home. Which means that she's probably in good shape(thin). She admitted that "she 'shared' 5 or 6 mixed drinks with friends". Even assuming that she didn't understate the amount of drinks she had, that's a lot for a 19 year old female. A female friend of mine got drunk on 2 Mang-o-ritas. Which are basically the equivalent of a strong beer. After 4 Mang-o-ritas, she could barely walk.

If this girl is a lightweight, 5 or 6 mixed drinks is going to put her in black out territory.

Blackout territory is a stretch but so that makes it okay for two guys to fuck her..... that's no different than giving her a date rape drug sorry

 

[jrry32]

Blackout territory is a stretch but so that makes it okay for two guys to freak her..... that's no different than giving her a date rape drug sorry

It's not really a stretch. Feed a skinny blonde freshman 5-6 mixed drinks(if not more) in a couple hours and she'll be absolutely wasted.

Makes it okay? Depends on their level of intoxication. If they're drunk too, yea, as long as she isn't passed out...I don't have an issue with it. The law would disagree but I think the law promotes a sexist double standard. If the idea is that a party cannot give consent when they're extremely intoxicated, if both are conscious and having sex but extremely intoxicated...both the man and the woman are being raped by that standard...and yet the man is the one charged with it. That idea has never sat well with me.

And it's very different than giving her a date rape drug. The girl made her own choice to get drunk. If you gave her a date rape drug, that means you are making a premeditated attempt to put her in a position where you can take advantage. Giving her a date rape drug means you create a plan with the intent to rape her. Both parties getting wasted and fucking is not a premeditated intent to rape. In my book, you're extreme culpable for the former and not culpable at all for the latter.

 

[ChrisW]

Blackout territory is a stretch but so that makes it okay for two guys to freak her..... that's no different than giving her a date rape drug sorry

You feed me 6 jack and cokes and i'm on a whole new level. Blackout isn't far from there.

 

[Athos]

It's not really a stretch. Feed a skinny blonde freshman 5-6 mixed drinks(if not more) in a couple hours and she'll be absolutely wasted.

Makes it okay? Depends on their level of intoxication. If they're drunk too, yea, as long as she isn't passed out...I don't have an issue with it. The law would disagree but I think the law promotes a sexist double standard. If the idea is that a party cannot give consent when they're extremely intoxicated, if both are conscious and having sex but extremely intoxicated...both the man and the woman are being raped by that standard...and yet the man is the one charged with it. That idea has never sat well with me.

And it's very different than giving her a date rape drug. The girl made her own choice to get drunk. If you gave her a date rape drug, that means you are making a premeditated attempt to put her in a position where you can take advantage. Giving her a date rape drug means you create a plan with the intent to rape her. Both parties getting wasted and freaking is not a premeditated intent to rape. In my book, you're extreme culpable for the former and not culpable at all for the latter.

Assuming the other party is drunk. Now, I sincerely HOPE you aren't insinuating that it is ok so fuck a passed out, sloppy drunk, incapacitated female OR male, if you're a damn sight near sober. If you are.....there are so many things I'd like to say, but just wouldn't be appropriate.

-----

Regardless, if someone is incapacitated or drunk to the point of coercion, I don't give a damn. It's safer for all parties to sober up first. Drunk sex sucks anyway.

 

[Dodgersrf]

Blackout territory is a stretch but so that makes it okay for two guys to freak her..... that's no different than giving her a date rape drug sorry

Spot on.
Taking advantage of intoxicated women is fucking disturbing. Scum bag move.
It can actually be considered rape here in CA.

 

[jrry32]

Assuming the other party is drunk. Now, I sincerely HOPE you aren't insinuating that it is ok so freak a passed out, sloppy drunk, incapacitated female OR male, if you're a damn sight near sober. If you are.....there are so many things I'd like to say, but just wouldn't be appropriate.

-----

Regardless, if someone is incapacitated or drunk to the point of coercion, I don't give a damn. It's safer for all parties to sober up first. Drunk sex sucks anyway.

I've already addressed the bolded point in the post you quoted.

Makes it okay? Depends on their level of intoxication. If they're drunk too, yea, as long as she isn't passed out...I don't have an issue with it.

If the idea is that a party cannot give consent when they're extremely intoxicated, if both are conscious and having sex but extremely intoxicated...both the man and the woman are being raped by that standard...and yet the man is the one charged with it.

 

[Alan]

jrry32 increasing the depravity:
If this girl is a lightweight, 5 or 6 mixed drinks is going to put her in black out territory.

That would make the rape even more heinous to me, and more likely it would be non-consensual.
I agree with Les for sure.

 

[Athos]

That would make the rape even more heinous to me, and more likely it would be non-consensual.
I agree with Les for sure.

Yea, at that point, if she's blackout drunk and he's just drunk but still conscious, that's sure as hell rape.

 

[jrry32]

That would make the rape even more heinous to me, and more likely it would be non-consensual.
I agree with Les for sure.

Not to me. If both are drunk and she's still conscious, I don't think it should be considered rape if she's actively taking part in the sex. If she's out cold, non-responsive, or not wanting to have sex...it's a different story.

But even still, I would always consider giving a girl a date rape drug to be the much more heinous offense. It's like first degree murder vs. second degree murder. One is spur of the moment while one is planned. Neither are acceptable but just like the legal system, I think planning it is much more heinous than doing something in the spur of the moment.

As far as rape goes, unless it's statutory, isn't it always non-consensual?

 

[Alan]

jrry32 with this:
Not to me. If both are drunk and she's still conscious, I don't think it should be considered rape if she's actively taking part in the sex. If she's out cold, non-responsive, or not wanting to have sex...it's a different story.

But it's not a different story is it? Here's what you said that I responded to:
"If this girl is a lightweight, 5 or 6 mixed drinks is going to put her in black out territory. "

That's sort of in the "non-responsive" territory isn't it? So yes actually, it is to you too.

 

[jrry32]

But it's not a different story is it? Here's what you said that I responded to:
"If this girl is a lightweight, 5 or 6 mixed drinks is going to put her in black out territory. "

That's sort of in the "non-responsive" territory isn't it? So yes actually, it is to you too.

Sorry, the language here has different meanings. I can understand where you'd draw that conclusion if you're going by the common usage of the word. However, in college, black out drunk isn't used to refer to passing out. It's more of a slang meaning to refer to being so drunk that you don't remember what you did that night. Sometimes, you pass out due to the alcohol...but usually, you had a crazy night but you were so drunk that your memory is blacked out and people have to fill you in on what you did.

That's my mistake, Alan. I can see why you'd interpret it the way you did because black out also means pass out.

In the way I'm using it, the girl would still be conscious and able to function/be responsive...she'd just be really drunk and not remember some or most of the details in the morning. Does a person have the capacity to give consent in that situation? I doubt it. But my opinion is if the guy is also similarly drunk, it shouldn't be considered rape. I'd consider it rape if the guy was sober or near sober. Because he's taking advantage of her weakened mental condition. But if he's also in similarly weakened condition mentally, I can't call it rape.

 

[LesBaker]

You feed me 6 jack and cokes and i'm on a whole new level. Blackout isn't far from there.

Wanna go out drinking with me and jrry?

 

[Thordaddy]

You feed me 6 jack and cokes and i'm on a whole new level. Blackout isn't far from there.

Back in the day ,that much and I'd be charming,not yet brilliant,double it and I'd be at invisible

 

[Alan]

jrry32 with clarification:
Sorry, the language here has different meanings. I can understand where you'd draw that conclusion if you're going by the common usage of the word. However, in college, black out drunk isn't used to refer to passing out. It's more of a slang meaning to refer to being so drunk that you don't remember what you did that night. Sometimes, you pass out due to the alcohol...but usually, you had a crazy night but you were so drunk that your memory is blacked out and people have to fill you in on what you did.

That's my mistake, Alan. I can see why you'd interpret it the way you did because black out also means pass out.

In the way I'm using it, the girl would still be conscious and able to function/be responsive...she'd just be really drunk and not remember some or most of the details in the morning. Does a person have the capacity to give consent in that situation? I doubt it. But my opinion is if the guy is also similarly drunk, it shouldn't be considered rape.

Well that's interesting. Is that a regional thing? I ask that because when I googled "black out college drinking" I couldn't find any definitions that didn't agree with mine.

Let me ask you this then, if you're in a condition that renders your memory of the anything that happens blank, do you really believe that you could be responsible for making an informed decision to giving their consent? Or even know what they were doing. Doesn't sound like sex between two consenting adults to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't defendants who claim temporary insanity also claim they have no memory of committing the crime? My eyes are getting tired so I'm about to hit the sack but I'll give this some more thought tomorrow.

 

[ChrisW]

Well that's interesting. Is that a regional thing? I ask that because when I googled "black out college drinking" I couldn't find any definitions that didn't agree with mine.

Let me ask you this then, if you're in a condition that renders your memory of the anything that happens blank, do you really believe that you could be responsible for making an informed decision to giving their consent? Or even know what they were doing. Doesn't sound like sex between two consenting adults to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't defendants who claim temporary insanity also claim they have no memory of committing the crime? My eyes are getting tired so I'm about to hit the sack but I'll give this some more thought tomorrow.

I use it the way @jrry32 uses it. Was born and raised in the STL area.

 

[jrry32]

Well that's interesting. Is that a regional thing? I ask that because when I googled "black out college drinking" I couldn't find any definitions that didn't agree with mine.

I don't know. That's how people at South Carolina used it. If you lost consciousness, you'd say that you "passed out". "Blackout drunk" was used to mean that you lost parts or all of your memory after a certain point due to the drunkenness but continued on partying.

Here's an article that discusses it with a psychiatrist's definition:
http://www.hercampus.com/health/physical-health/blacking-out-why-it-s-more-dangerous-you-think

“A blackout is alcohol-induced amnesia, wherein the person cannot recall some, or all of the events that occurred while she was intoxicated,” Dr. Smith says. “It is not the same as ‘passing out’, which is loss of consciousness due to excessive alcohol consumption. In a blackout, the individual is conscious and awake, and engaging in activities, but later has only partial or no recall for those activities.”

Let me ask you this then, if you're in a condition that renders your memory of the anything that happens blank, do you really believe that you could be responsible for making an informed decision to giving their consent? Or even know what they were doing. Doesn't sound like sex between two consenting adults to me.

That would be one of the points I was making. It depends on the level of intoxication of the other party. If they're also very intoxicated, I think it's unfair to punish them when they also lack that ability to make an informed decision. In essence, neither can give consent and neither can make an informed decision about whether consent could be given. If we are to argue rape, it's reciprocal to me. Both are raping each other or neither are committing rape.

Now, that doesn't include situations where one party forces sex onto another. It has to be something both parties wanted in their drunkenness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't defendants who claim temporary insanity also claim they have no memory of committing the crime? My eyes are getting tired so I'm about to hit the sack but I'll give this some more thought tomorrow.

That's certainly one way to argue it.

 

[Alan]

jrr32 with good info:
Here's an article that discusses it with a psychiatrist's definition:
http://www.hercampus.com/health/physical-health/blacking-out-why-it-s-more-dangerous-you-think
“A blackout is alcohol-induced amnesia, wherein the person cannot recall some, or all of the events that occurred while she was intoxicated,” Dr. Smith says. “It is not the same as ‘passing out’, which is loss of consciousness due to excessive alcohol consumption. In a blackout, the individual is conscious and awake, and engaging in activities, but later has only partial or no recall for those activities.”

Good stuff jrry, thanks! Unfortunately, they didn't really say what the practical difference was other than you're probably still ambulatory to some degree.

That would be one of the points I was making. It depends on the level of intoxication of the other party. If they're also very intoxicated, I think it's unfair to punish them when they also lack that ability to make an informed decision. In essence, neither can give consent and neither can make an informed decision about whether consent could be given. If we are to argue rape, it's reciprocal to me. Both are raping each other or neither are committing rape.

Well to went to some length to describe the effects the alcohol would have on a 5'6" lightweight. I doubt the man would fit that description (of course Rice wouldn't for sure) so unless he started drinking much earlier than her or at a much faster pace the issue of reciprocity is probably not germane.

Some of your statement is laughable though. I wish I'd met a woman who fit that description. Not in may wildest dreams would I ever think a woman would, in that condition, try and rape me because A) it's not rape if I want it and no matter the amount of alcohol ingested I would want it and B) it's not rape if I want it and no matter the amount of alcohol ingested I would want it and C) I've never met a woman who wanted to have sex that much. Or maybe it was that I've never met a woman who wanted sex that much with me.

Thanks for giving me some new information. I had heard of the distinction before but I had been under the impression it was something that immediately preceded unconsciousness and thus just part of the process. I still disagree with where you're taking that because your scenario is a one in a million and I couldn't ever imagine myself coming to/forming a conclusion about something based on some highly unlikely scenario. So I guess we're just gonna disagree on this.

 

[LesBaker]

In the way I'm using it, the girl would still be conscious and able to function/be responsive...she'd just be really drunk and not remember some or most of the details in the morning. Does a person have the capacity to give consent in that situation? I doubt it. But my opinion is if the guy is also similarly drunk, it shouldn't be considered rape. I'd consider it rape if the guy was sober or near sober. Because he's taking advantage of her weakened mental condition. But if he's also in similarly weakened condition mentally, I can't call it rape.

That is kinda the definition of rape.

If you had a daughter and she was drunk enough that she passed out or was given a date rape drug then two guys had unprotected sex with her how would you define that series of events?

It's rape. And he knows it, that's why if you read the report about how the investigation unfolded he got a lawyer ASAP and the rest of the cover up wasn't well done. That's why this story has surfaced, they botched the cover up and botched rigging the investigation.