Jameis Winston Just Doesn't Get It

[ChrisW]

That is kinda the definition of rape.

If you had a daughter and she was drunk enough that she passed out or was given a date rape drug then two guys had unprotected sex with her how would you define that series of events?

It's rape. And he knows it, that's why if you read the report about how the investigation unfolded he got a lawyer ASAP and the rest of the cover up wasn't well done. That's why this story has surfaced, they botched the cover up and botched rigging the investigation.

Well of course if it was your daughter, you'd probably want to kill the dude that did it. But, that's why you can't convict somebody based on your emotions.

It's a fuck up on both parties fault. Did he do all this with the intention of raping her anyway? I don't know, it's more like a gray area between rape and consensual. He's drunk, she's drunk. Sex happens, and immediate regret is felt. I can see how that would lead to feelings of being violated, but it's a bad decision. Now, if he had the intention of getting her drunk just to sexually assault her, then it's rape.

I don't know the full details of the story, so I can't comment to his intentions, but I know how it feels to wake up the next day after a memory blackout, look over next to me and say, "Oh, Shit..."

 

[LesBaker]

Well of course if it was your daughter, you'd probably want to kill the dude that did it. But, that's why you can't convict somebody based on your emotions.

It's a freak up on both parties fault. Did he do all this with the intention of raping her anyway? I don't know, it's more like a gray area between rape and consensual. He's drunk, she's drunk. Sex happens, and immediate regret is felt. I can see how that would lead to feelings of being violated, but it's a bad decision. Now, if he had the intention of getting her drunk just to sexually assault her, then it's rape.

I don't know the full details of the story, so I can't comment to his intentions, but I know how it feels to wake up the next day after a memory blackout, look over next to me and say, "Oh, crap..."

Somewhere in this thread there is a link to the article about the investigation/coverup and it's worth reading, it'll probably change your mind about this. One of the guys filmed a little bit of it and then later deleted it and the only reason he would do that is because the vid would show her passed out. If it was showing her riding him she has no case and all this is finished. Pretty much everything points to rape and cover up.

I don't know if he got her drunk in order to have sex with her or not, so I can't say "intent". But I know if she is passed out/blacked out or unresponsive having sex with her IS rape. And two different guys did it, yet the other two guys (there were 3 guys in the place counting Winston) who were in the apartment that night haven't been asked for DNA samples. This is perhaps the worst attempt at a cover up imaginable.

I still think she was slipped a date rape drug. This is practically the model of how it goes down.

Take a few to read the article.

 

[jrry32]

Well to went to some length to describe the effects the alcohol would have on a 5'6" lightweight. I doubt the man would fit that description (of course Rice wouldn't for sure) so unless he started drinking much earlier than her or at a much faster pace the issue of reciprocity is probably not germane.

Some of your statement is laughable though. I wish I'd met a woman who fit that description. Not in may wildest dreams would I ever think a woman would, in that condition, try and rape me because A) it's not rape if I want it and no matter the amount of alcohol ingested I would want it and B) it's not rape if I want it and no matter the amount of alcohol ingested I would want it and C) I've never met a woman who wanted to have sex that much. Or maybe it was that I've never met a woman who wanted sex that much with me.

Thanks for giving me some new information. I had heard of the distinction before but I had been under the impression it was something that immediately preceded unconsciousness and thus just part of the process. I still disagree with where you're taking that because your scenario is a one in a million and I couldn't ever imagine myself coming to/forming a conclusion about something based on some highly unlikely scenario. So I guess we're just gonna disagree on this.

Women rarely keep up with men when drinking in college. So you'll usually find guys end up getting to a similar level because they drink more heavily and typically make stronger drinks.

How is my statement laughable? You can't call it rape from a lack of consent due to capacity if NEITHER SIDE HAS CAPACITY AND BOTH WANTED THE SEX WHILE DRUNK. If it's rape, both parties are being raped.

My scenario isn't really one in a million. Females being able to claim rape(especially in college) after getting drunk and having consensual(while drunk) sex with drunken males does happen...a lot more often than you're letting on.

That is kinda the definition of rape.

If you had a daughter and she was drunk enough that she passed out or was given a date rape drug then two guys had unprotected sex with her how would you define that series of events?

It's rape. And he knows it, that's why if you read the report about how the investigation unfolded he got a lawyer ASAP and the rest of the cover up wasn't well done. That's why this story has surfaced, they botched the cover up and botched rigging the investigation.

I've explicitly addressed your question in my posts in this thread.

 

[jrry32]

One of the guys filmed a little bit of it and then later deleted it and the only reason he would do that is because the vid would show her passed out.

The guy videoed it from outside the room through the open door and deleted it before the girl had ever identified Winston...so Winston had no idea the rape accusations were being brought when it was deleted.

It's much more likely to me that he later deleted it because Winston found out and wasn't happy his roommate filmed him having sex.

Why would he voluntarily film a rape? Seems like an unbelievably stupid thing to do...right?

 

[Alan]

jrry32 vying with Adonis for females attention:
How is my statement laughable? You can't call it rape from a lack of consent due to capacity if NEITHER SIDE HAS CAPACITY AND BOTH WANTED THE SEX WHILE DRUNK. If it's rape, both parties are being raped.

My scenario isn't really one in a million. Females being able to claim rape(especially in college) after getting drunk and having consensual(while drunk) sex with drunken males does happen...a lot more often than you're letting on.

Two misunderstandings here:
First, I've never had a woman or heard of a woman who wanted to have sex when either "blacked out" or almost "blacked out". Maybe you're just better looking than I am. To think that would actually happen is what I meant by laughable.

Second, I wasn't saying that females don't make false accusations of rape. That happens all the time and there was a recent case where the woman recanted and a former LB was let out of prison and given a second chance by one of the teams in the NFL. Forget which. Where did you read that in what I said? can you quote it for me? What I was saying is a one in a million scenario was a woman, in an almost comatose condition due to alcohol abuse (blacked out), wanting to have sex with me. Or anyone else with the possible exception of yourself.

Really jrry, either I'm an incredibly bad writer (possible) or you're not actually reading what I write. I re-read what I wrote and I can't see how you could have gotten anything like what you thought I said from what I actually said. Are you really seriously saying that a huge man and a much smaller woman would start drinking together and both manage to reach the "black out" stage simultaneously AND the woman would want sex with him? As I think about this again, I'd put it at more like one in a trillion chance. But that's just my opinion. Whooosh!

Frankly, I think you're mixing some of what I said with some of what others are saying. That's the only explanation I can come up with.

 

[ChrisW]

Two misunderstandings here:
First, I've never had a woman or heard of a woman who wanted to have sex when either "blacked out" or almost "blacked out". Maybe you're just better looking than I am. To think that would actually happen is what I meant by laughable.

Second, I wasn't saying that females don't make false accusations of rape. That happens all the time and there was a recent case where the woman recanted and a former LB was let out of prison and given a second chance by one of the teams in the NFL. Forget which. Where did you read that in what I said? can you quote it for me? What I was saying is a one in a million scenario was a woman, in an almost comatose condition due to alcohol abuse (blacked out), wanting to have sex with me. Or anyone else with the possible exception of yourself.

Really jrry, either I'm an incredibly bad writer (possible) or you're not actually reading what I write. I re-read what I wrote and I can't see how you could have gotten anything like what you thought I said from what I actually said. Are you really seriously saying that a huge man and a much smaller woman would start drinking together and both manage to reach the "black out" stage simultaneously AND the woman would want sex with him? As I think about this again, I'd put it at more like one in a trillion chance. But that's just my opinion. Whooosh!

Once you get drunk enough it doesn't matter. It's not like the girl is like, "Oh, I'm blacked out right now...I can't do this." You function just as if you were plastered drunk, but just have no memory of it.

So if they were both drunk enough, then there isn't any inhibitions for either of them to say no.

 

[LesBaker]

The guy videoed it from outside the room through the open door and deleted it before the girl had ever identified Winston...so Winston had no idea the rape accusations were being brought when it was deleted.

It's much more likely to me that he later deleted it because Winston found out and wasn't happy his roommate filmed him having sex.

Why would he voluntarily film a rape? Seems like an unbelievably stupid thing to do...right?

jrry that's his side of the story so we don't know if he is lying or not.

As far as filming a rape read about the Steubenville high school players, they did just that and IMO should have been tried as adults and locked away for a long, long time. One of the turds had the audacity to cry in court that he wouldn't be wanted by any colleges anymore. That's a little bit of a problem when the culture creates that type of mentality. I believe colleges foster it a million times more.

This takes about 3 minutes to read but it's a solid summary. This type of thing is more common that you may think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case

Again, I don't know if he did it or not 100% because I wasn't there and there is a whole litanny of shit that oddly has been swept under the rug........but this smells like rape and clearly there has been a botched coverup and if nothing happened why try to cover it up?

 

[LesBaker]

Once you get drunk enough it doesn't matter. It's not like the girl is like, "Oh, I'm blacked out right now...I can't do this." You function just as if you were plastered drunk, but just have no memory of it.

So if they were both drunk enough, then there isn't any inhibitions for either of them to say no.

Generally the law will consider it rape if the woman is incapacitated and can't/didn't consent. Clearly Winston WAS NOT incapacitated since he got it up and penetrated her. He cannot make that claim, and in fact hasn't.

 

[Alan]

ChrisW with only half of the scenario:
Once you get drunk enough it doesn't matter. It's not like the girl is like, "Oh, I'm blacked out right now...I can't do this." You function just as if you were plastered drunk, but just have no memory of it.

So if they were both drunk enough, then there isn't any inhibitions for either of them to say no.

So that's half the scenario. What about the part where the huge guy and the small girl reach that state simultaneously?

After you answer that then we'll start in on the finding a woman who wants sex while in that condition part of this equation.

Next up will be the discussion about the coincidence of having two people who can actually reach the "blacked out" condition. I've been very drunk many times and I've never blacked out nor have I ever been with a friend who has blacked out. I have known alcoholics who've reached that state and then shortly after passed out.

Then we'll talk about how a guy can actually get it up and keep it up long enough to rape a girl while in the "blacked out" condition.

One in a quadrillion.

 

[Athos]

So that's half the scenario. What about the part where the huge guy and the small girl reach that state simultaneously?

After you answer that then we'll start in on the finding a woman who wants sex while in that condition part of this equation.

Yea, that's a key component. Also....interesting hypothetical on the note as well.

So, you know the girl generally gets drunk waaaayyy sooner than you do, whether you know this personally as fact because you know her or because the general knowledge that women will get plastered sooner.

And you reach that same level with significantly more booze in your system.

Now, is it rape if you see she's getting fucking shit-faced and can't make a conscious decision, so you get yourself to "black out drunk" as well so you can use the excuse "well, we both got shit-faced, it isn't rape." That'd be rape in my eyes.

Intent certainly matters. And two parties being drunk and fucking isn't a black and white issue. Tons of gray in that area.

 

[Alan]

Too quick for me @Athos . You only got half of my post.

 

[LesBaker]

Yea, that's a key component. Also....interesting hypothetical on the note as well.

So, you know the girl generally gets drunk waaaayyy sooner than you do, whether you know this personally as fact because you know her or because the general knowledge that women will get plastered sooner.

And you reach that same level with significantly more booze in your system.

Now, is it rape if you see she's getting freaking crap-faced and can't make a conscious decision, so you get yourself to "black out drunk" as well so you can use the excuse "well, we both got crap-faced, it isn't rape." That'd be rape in my eyes.

Intent certainly matters. And two parties being drunk and freaking isn't a black and white issue. Tons of gray in that area.

I'm not sure if intent matters, sometimes crimes are committed because of opportunity.

This may be that kind of thing. It could be simply one of the guys saying to the others (remember there were three of them counting Winston) "hey this chick is so fucked up we can do anything and she'll never know, lets take her back to the apartment and fuck her". That does happen, and it is exactly what happened in the case I linked.

A lot of guys wouldn't think they are committing rape in this situation because the woman didn't say no or stop them, which is sick and fucked up, but I'd bet it's true.

 

[jrry32]

jrry that's his side of the story so we don't know if he is lying or not.

As far as filming a rape read about the Steubenville high school players, they did just that and IMO should have been tried as adults and locked away for a long, long time. One of the turds had the audacity to cry in court that he wouldn't be wanted by any colleges anymore. That's a little bit of a problem when the culture creates that type of mentality. I believe colleges foster it a million times more.

This takes about 3 minutes to read but it's a solid summary. This type of thing is more common that you may think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case

Again, I don't know if he did it or not 100% because I wasn't there and there is a whole litanny of crap that oddly has been swept under the rug........but this smells like rape and clearly there has been a botched coverup and if nothing happened why try to cover it up?

A botched cover-up? By the police or who? Seems like a shitty investigation by the police. But was it a cover-up or just shitty work? TPD has been taking a lot of heat for their treatment of rape victims and investigation of rape. I'm not sure we can just assume cover-up because they did a poor job of investigating it.

That is the other side of the story(not Winston's, Casher's). But it seems to me that people take the girl's story at full face value and assume everyone on the other side is lying.

Doesn't seem like an objective way of looking at it.

 

[jrry32]

Two misunderstandings here:
First, I've never had a woman or heard of a woman who wanted to have sex when either "blacked out" or almost "blacked out". Maybe you're just better looking than I am. To think that would actually happen is what I meant by laughable.

Gotcha. I've definitely seen it. Never chosen to do it because there's no honor in screwing a girl that can barely walk much less make a rational decision. But a lot of college girls get really promiscuous(trying to say it in a neutral way) when they get sloppy drunk.

Second, I wasn't saying that females don't make false accusations of rape. That happens all the time and there was a recent case where the woman recanted and a former LB was let out of prison and given a second chance by one of the teams in the NFL. Forget which. Where did you read that in what I said? can you quote it for me? What I was saying is a one in a million scenario was a woman, in an almost comatose condition due to alcohol abuse (blacked out), wanting to have sex with me. Or anyone else with the possible exception of yourself.

Almost comatose? Definitely not what I'm meaning here by blackout drunk.

Really jrry, either I'm an incredibly bad writer (possible) or you're not actually reading what I write. I re-read what I wrote and I can't see how you could have gotten anything like what you thought I said from what I actually said. Are you really seriously saying that a huge man and a much smaller woman would start drinking together and both manage to reach the "black out" stage simultaneously AND the woman would want sex with him? As I think about this again, I'd put it at more like one in a trillion chance. But that's just my opinion. Whooosh!

A couple things here:
1. Why would they have to start drinking together? The girl was at a club late at night. There's nothing in the facts of this case that support such an assertion.
2. Who says anything about reaching blackout stage simultaneously? I'm not even saying they have to be at the EXACT SAME level. Both just have to be very intoxicated.
3. As I said before, many college girls get promiscuous when they get sloppy drunk. Is that true of the girl in this case? I have no idea and wouldn't make such an assertion.

 

[LesBaker]

A botched cover-up? By the police or who? Seems like a crappy investigation by the police. But was it a cover-up or just crappy work? TPD has been taking a lot of heat for their treatment of rape victims and investigation of rape. I'm not sure we can just assume cover-up because they did a poor job of investigating it.

That is the other side of the story(not Winston's, Casher's). But it seems to me that people take the girl's story at full face value and assume everyone on the other side is lying.

Doesn't seem like an objective way of looking at it.

Not sure if you read the article written by the reporter that was posted in this thread.

Security tape disappeared, no cab records show them getting a cab even though they did those records are not there, her attorney was told her client would be "raked over the coals", the detective then closed the case......thee is a lot of stuff. Read this real quick it'll add some info for you.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...egations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html?_r=2

 

[Alan]

jrry32 with clarification:
2. Who says anything about reaching blackout stage simultaneously? I'm not even saying they have to be at the EXACT SAME level. Both just have to be very intoxicated.

So I'm still very hazy on your definition of "blacked out" because now you're using sloppy drunk as a synonym for "blacked out" and I know that's wrong. I and my friends have been sloppy drunk before and never had black outs. So they are not the same and that means I'm still not fully understanding what your definition is. You have my head spinning and I'm getting too dizzy to talk about that anymore but I will ask you one more question. The quote I posted above doesn't seem to jibe with your earlier statement which I'll post now:

In the way I'm using it, the girl would still be conscious and able to function/be responsive...she'd just be really drunk and not remember some or most of the details in the morning. Does a person have the capacity to give consent in that situation? I doubt it.

You say you doubt they would have the capacity to give consent which would make it rape and yet in the 2. quote above you're using the same state to say it's mutual consent because they somehow managed to reach that state or close to that state at the same time or around the same time and thus are both equally unable to give consent which would make it consensual. Or maybe they raped each other.

I'm sure I missed something but that convoluted (IMO) logic is just way beyond my abilities to understand. Or I'm just in a state of total confusion. Probably the latter.

Still, I'm sure you're going to have a good answer and I'm sure I will enjoy reading it. Hit me with it when you're ready because I think I'm as ready as I ever will be. Or at least I will be after I hit my herb garden. I'll be right back.

 

[ChrisW]

In the way I'm using it, the girl would still be conscious and able to function/be responsive...she'd just be really drunk and not remember some or most of the details in the morning. Does a person have the capacity to give consent in that situation? I doubt it.

If they gave out rape convictions based on this then 90% of men that had sex at a college party would be convicted of rape.

 

[Alan]

ChrisW reminiscing about his past:
If they gave out rape convictions based on this then 90% of men that had sex at a college party would be convicted of rape.

OK, now I'm armed and semi-dangerous.
You do realize that you're responding to a quote of what jrry said right? I'll let him defend what he said.

 

[LesBaker]

If they gave out rape convictions based on this then 90% of men that had sex at a college party would be convicted of rape.

in her report to the police she was trying to resist him and he pinned her arms down..... guys don't do that

 

[Alan]

BTW, just to be clear, I'm not talking about the Winston incident. I know nothing about it except what I've picked up in Les's last few posts. I am merely responding to something I read and disagreed with in one of jrry's posts as I was skimming over some of the later posts in this thread. I frequently do that when threads get really long, just to see what everybody is so interested in. I'm talking in general about the logic being used to back up some of the viewpoints being expressed here.