Why Did Belicheat Not Call a Time Out?

[Mojo Ram]

Marshawn Lynch is one of the best short yardage backs in the league. Everyone in the world thinks they are going to pound it in with Lynch. They have 1-timeout, that easily gives them 2-plays to punch it in. Really, you going to opt to give yourself less time to drive down for a game-tying field goal? Makes absolutely no sense. I don't think Martz would even have taken such a chance.

If the Seahawks don' t pass there, then we're all talking today about that great catch in the final drive and why Belicheat let the clock run down.

I agree that the Seattle playcall at the goal line wasn't smart(answered that in another thread). I'm answering the question of the OP here.

IMO when you're up by a TD(more than 3 points) and there's under a minute to go you don't play games with the clock when you're on defense(especially when the other team doesn't have a full set of timeouts). This idea that NE should try to leave themselves time to score again IF Seattle gets a TD is silly.

If i'm HC i want to force the losing team to make a play. The dwindling clock is on MY SIDE in that situation.

 

[Stranger]

I agree that the Seattle playcall at the goal line wasn't smart(answered that in another thread). I'm answering the question of the OP here.

IMO when you're up by a TD(more than 3 points) and there's under a minute to go you don't play games with the clock when you're on defense(especially when the other team doesn't have a full set of timeouts). This idea that NE should try to leave themselves time to score again IF Seattle gets a TD is silly.

If i'm HC i want to force the losing team to make a play. The clock is on MY SIDE in that situation.

If there is one thing that Belicheat does, and that is play the odds. His entire football strategy is run by a statistical back-office headed by Ernie Adams. The probability there was very high that the Seacocks would score a TD.... much higher than them NOT scoring a TD. If one is playing the odds, then one leaves time to tie-up the game in a follow-up drive.

The Seacock's coaching staff tried to get smart and opted to run a play that wasn't expected in an effort to catch the cheatriots offguard. Otherwise, we're not having this discussion.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Marshawn Lynch is one of the best short yardage backs in the league. Everyone in the world thinks they are going to pound it in with Lynch. They have 1-timeout, that easily gives them 2-plays to punch it in. Really, you going to opt to give yourself less time to drive down for a game-tying field goal? Makes absolutely no sense. I don't think Martz would even have taken such a chance.

If the Seahawks don' t pass there, then we're all talking today about that great catch in the final drive and why Belicheat let the clock run down.

I saw someone do a breakdown of the play. They said, given the personnel the Patriots used it gave the Seahawks a lot of incentive to pass. They put themselves in man (which Seattle confirmed by motioning a player and seeing Revis move with him), which then gave a lot of incentive for a quick slant.

Then it was down to the individual players. Seattles receiver (starting with a K, I forget the names) was supposed to get in the way of Butler and the other Pats player, leaving the intended receiver free for the quick slant and an easy TD. Wilson was going to throw it to him regardless, he didn't have time to go through his reads, it was snap and throw.

However the Patriots jammed Seattle at the line, so Butler was not only not interfered with, but had speed to make the play. Wilson should have either thrown it low or behind, but instead he led his receiver, which gave Butler the chance for the pick.

So essentially New England gave Seattle a look they felt they could beat easier, then outplayed them on the player level, and got a little lucky when Wilson threw it wrong instead of going for an incompletion or TD type throw.

Essentially Pete got out coached. If NE called a TO then that gives Seattle more time to draw something up that would have more of a chance to succeed. Instead they put pressure on and tricked them into doing what they wanted. Fisher has a tendancy to do this against Seattle, I think it was just a simple case of being out coached. Having the play broken down kind of cleared things up for me though.

 

[Mojo Ram]

If there is one thing that Belicheat does, and that is play the odds. His entire football strategy is run by a statistical back-office headed by Ernie Adams. The probability there was very high that the Seacocks would score a TD.... much higher than them NOT scoring a TD. If one is playing the odds, then one leaves time to tie-up the game in a follow-up drive.

The Seacock's coaching staff tried to get smart and opted to run a play that wasn't expected in an effort to catch the cheatriots offguard. Otherwise, we're not having this discussion.

I would imagine, and again if i'm coaching NE i look at:
1) The time remaining(under a minute)
2) The opponent has only 1 timeout
3) I like my defense
4) I'm winning by 4 points

I'd have done the exact same thing Belichik did. Now if i was only winning by 3 points or less...yeah i'm going to stop the clock while on defense.

 

[Stranger]

I saw someone do a breakdown of the play. They said, given the personnel the Patriots used it gave the Seahawks a lot of incentive to pass. They put themselves in man (which Seattle confirmed by motioning a player and seeing Revis move with him), which then gave a lot of incentive for a quick slant.

Then it was down to the individual players. Seattles receiver (starting with a K, I forget the names) was supposed to get in the way of Butler and the other Pats player, leaving the intended receiver free for the quick slant and an easy TD. Wilson was going to throw it to him regardless, he didn't have time to go through his reads, it was snap and throw.

However the Patriots jammed Seattle at the line, so Butler was not only not interfered with, but had speed to make the play. Wilson should have either thrown it low or behind, but instead he led his receiver, which gave Butler the chance for the pick.

So essentially New England gave Seattle a look they felt they could beat easier, then outplayed them on the player level, and got a little lucky when Wilson threw it wrong instead of going for an incompletion or TD type throw.

Essentially Pete got out coached. If NE called a TO then that gives Seattle more time to draw something up that would have more of a chance to succeed. Instead they put pressure on and tricked them into doing what they wanted. Fisher has a tendancy to do this against Seattle, I think it was just a simple case of being out coached. Having the play broken down kind of cleared things up for me though.

That's an interesting perspective. So, Belicheat knew of Carroll's tendency to collapse under time pressure and used that as well as his defensive alignment to force the play. They would have discussed this in advance, as no way Belicheat processes all of that in the moment. Thanks blue, this is the only other explanation that makes sense to me.

 

[bluecoconuts]

That's an interesting perspective. So, Belicheat knew of Carroll's tendency to collapse under time pressure and used that as well as his defensive alignment to force the play. They would have discussed this in advance, as no way Belicheat processes all of that in the moment. Thanks blue, this is the only other explanation that makes sense to me.

Honestly I have no idea, it just made sense to me. I can certainly understand that trying to trick the offense into running the plays you want them to do is part of the game. We did that against the 49ers two years ago, watched tape and figured out signals and were able to draw out certain plays that we knew how to beat (the Jenkins FF recovery for a TD being one)... Seattle has always been a bit predictable in my opinion, that's how we got them with a fake punt return of all things.

Given the distance, personnel, and formation (receivers bunched and offset to the right) they probably figured it was a short quick slant over the middle. As soon as (Baldwin?) was motioned out they probably knew for sure it was a pass. If they didn't see something they were familiar with maybe they call the time out?

I don't really know, just guessing that they went back and looked at a lot of Seattle film, probably were doing it all offseason to be honest, just to see how the (then) champs were able to steamroll so many teams. Seattle isn't really a tricky play, I've always felt that Fisher out coaches him nearly every game, we just have a large talent discrepancy. But we always make Wilson look pretty shitty, and I would put money that the Pats watched a lot of Rams vs Seattle film from the last 3 years.

 

[LesBaker]

I would imagine, and again if i'm coaching NE i look at:
1) The time remaining(under a minute)
2) The opponent has only 1 timeout
3) I like my defense
4) I'm winning by 4 points

I'd have done the exact same thing Belichik did. Now if i was only winning by 3 points or less...yeah i'm going to stop the clock while on defense.

And having the D on the field he wanted was really important.

He played the odds, granted they were not in his favor at all at all but he did what was best.

Unless of course we just want to go with the "he cheated" theme, in which case I'm gonna laugh.

I'd MUCH rather as the HC for NE face a Wilson pass play versus a Lynch running play when the O is feeling pressure to get off a play quickly.

 

[mike_2133]

Successful at what?
Cheating?

I care a lot less about this than the people who post here, that's for sure. If BB was the Rams coach and led them to 4 SBs, no one here would care 1 bit about how he did it.

But I am not a conspiracy theorist and I think the deflating balls fiasco is dumb and a waste of time. I highly doubt the other 31 teams were following this rule.

 

[shaunpinney]

I recon (as others have said) that it was to put urgency on Seattle's offense.

I wouldn't be surprised that he was playing mind-games, the way I look at it, it's a "come on, score your TD, because we'll get the ball right back and you know what, I have total faith in my offense to win the match...

 

[Mojo Ram]

I recon (as others have said) that it was to put urgency on Seattle's offense.

I wouldn't be surprised that he was playing mind-games, the way I look at it, it's a "come on, score your TD, because we'll get the ball right back and you know what, I have total faith in my offense to win the match...

Check your PM's

 

[thirteen28]

Because after the Patriots picked up the playcall from the Seahawk's radio (or hand signals), Belichek was in shock and didn't have the presence of mind to call the timeout.

 

[Boffo97]

I care a lot less about this than the people who post here, that's for sure. If BB was the Rams coach and led them to 4 SBs, no one here would care 1 bit about how he did it.

But I am not a conspiracy theorist and I think the deflating balls fiasco is dumb and a waste of time. I highly doubt the other 31 teams were following this rule.

1. Quite a few of us, me included, would not have followed a Bill Belichick-coached Rams team with all this cheating no matter how many Super Bowls it resulted in. I would have stopped following the NFL until he was gone and refused to acknowledge the Super Bowls as valid. And I think I'm far from alone here.

2. If the other teams are cheating, they need to get caught, exposed and punished. And I mean real punished, not Goodell punished. I would want the Rams disqualified from games for cheating just as much as I want the Patriots disqualified for it. If the game has no integrity, why bother following it?

 

[mike_2133]

1. Quite a few of us, me included, would not have followed a Bill Belichick-coached Rams team with all this cheating no matter how many Super Bowls it resulted in. I would have stopped following the NFL until he was gone and refused to acknowledge the Super Bowls as valid. And I think I'm far from alone here.

2. If the other teams are cheating, they need to get caught, exposed and punished. And I mean real punished, not Goodell punished. I would want the Rams disqualified from games for cheating just as much as I want the Patriots disqualified for it. If the game has no integrity, why bother following it?

1 is easy to say - but if BB had started coaching the Rams in 2001 and he led them to 4 SBs, I have doubts that what you say is true.

Football is a game - I guess I don't care if there's integrity. Cheating is involved in every game ever created. I do agree that the video taping is beyond what I think is reasonable. But they were caught and punished and moved on. The deflated balls and other moves (ie changing the ineligible player around) to me is a waste of time to give so much coverage to. I highly doubt those things are worse than anything the Rams or any other team do, or would do.

BB is the best coach in the league, and up there as one of the best coaches of all-time. His outside of the box thinking is something I wish there was a lot more of in football.

I've been reading these forums for awhile and I definitely know I am in the minority that cares very little about this hate for the Patriots. I think Tom Brady is the best QB of this era and is up there in the best of all-time. The BB-Brady combo is the best HC-QB combination of all-time.

 

[Boffo97]

1 is easy to say - but if BB had started coaching the Rams in 2001 and he led them to 4 SBs, I have doubts that what you say is true.

You may not care when it's "your" team cheating. Many here do. And it's kind of insulting for you to assert other people wouldn't have that integrity.

Football is a game - I guess I don't care if there's integrity. Cheating is involved in every game ever created. I do agree that the video taping is beyond what I think is reasonable. But they were caught and punished and moved on.

Football is a game. That is why it becomes pointless when people cheat.

The Patriots were not "punished" for the video taping because what they gained from it was so much more than what they lost in the "punishment" that it was ridiculous.

The deflated balls and other moves (ie changing the ineligible player around) to me is a waste of time to give so much coverage to. I highly doubt those things are worse than anything the Rams or any other team do, or would do.

The changing the eligible player around (so long as they didn't sub before doing that) is fine, but might want to be looked at to also give defenses a chance to sub. If the Rams ARE doing things worse than the deflated footballs though, I want them caught and punished because that's a huge advantage in easier weather. Deflated footballs are noticeably easier to grip.

BB is the best coach in the league, and up there as one of the best coaches of all-time. His outside of the box thinking is something I wish there was a lot more of in football.

I've been reading these forums for awhile and I definitely know I am in the minority that cares very little about this hate for the Patriots. I think Tom Brady is the best QB of this era and is up there in the best of all-time. The BB-Brady combo is the best HC-QB combination of all-time.

Belichick deserves to be banned for life, Brady too if he knew about Spygate. I'd also ban Brady for the next year at least over Deflategate.

 

[mike_2133]

You may not care when it's "your" team cheating. Many here do. And it's kind of insulting for you to assert other people wouldn't have that integrity.


Football is a game. That is why it becomes pointless when people cheat.

The Patriots were not "punished" for the video taping because what they gained from it was so much more than what they lost in the "punishment" that it was ridiculous.


The changing the eligible player around (so long as they didn't sub before doing that) is fine, but might want to be looked at to also give defenses a chance to sub. If the Rams ARE doing things worse than the deflated footballs though, I want them caught and punished because that's a huge advantage in easier weather. Deflated footballs are noticeably easier to grip.


Belichick deserves to be banned for life, Brady too if he knew about Spygate. I'd also ban Brady for the next year at least over Deflategate.

Do you have proof that Brady or Belichick knew about the deflated balls? You may think you do based on past information but that's not how these things work. Otherwise, if someone does something wrong once, they are then guilty of everything you accuse of them of, even without proof.

To me, the Patriots are way too smart to purposely deflate the balls to the point that a player on the other team would notice. They know that other players and the refs touch the football after every play. Their past cheating was far more secretive than that.

We obviously have different opinions on what football is to us. I don't care if Ray Rice or AP or Aldon Smith or whoever play football. Especially prior to actually being convicted of anything. Football is not where I pull my moral compass from.

 

[Stranger]

Do you have proof that Brady or Belichick knew about the deflated balls? You may think you do based on past information but that's not how these things work. Otherwise, if someone does something wrong once, they are then guilty of everything you accuse of them of, even without proof.

To me, the Patriots are way too smart to purposely deflate the balls to the point that a player on the other team would notice. They know that other players and the refs touch the football after every play. Their past cheating was far more secretive than that.

We obviously have different opinions on what football is to us. I don't care if Ray Rice or AP or Aldon Smith or whoever play football. Especially prior to actually being convicted of anything. Football is not where I pull my moral compass from.

These things don't and can't happen in a vacuum.

But I am not a conspiracy theorist

So, you always and only think within the boundaries provided to you by the media and institutionalized academia, church, state and business? How 1984 of you. Glad to see you're keeping up on your SOMA doseage.

 

[Boffo97]

Do you have proof that Brady or Belichick knew about the deflated balls? You may think you do based on past information but that's not how these things work. Otherwise, if someone does something wrong once, they are then guilty of everything you accuse of them of, even without proof.

The proof is in common sense, especially with Brady. When a football is deflated to that point, it feels NOTICEABLY different. You can push in on it quite a bit, where you can't do so at all on an inflated one (which is the point of doing it in inclement weather). There is no way a professional QB doesn't notice that... which many professional QBs have pointed out. And Belichick has a lot more to gain than some random ballboy doing it on his own.

To me, the Patriots are way too smart to purposely deflate the balls to the point that a player on the other team would notice. They know that other players and the refs touch the football after every play. Their past cheating was far more secretive than that.

They apparently got away with it up until that game (there are reports suggesting that this wasn't the first time they did this.) And their owner is Goodell's buddy, so they know they'll probably skate on this.

We obviously have different opinions on what football is to us. I don't care if Ray Rice or AP or Aldon Smith or whoever play football. Especially prior to actually being convicted of anything. Football is not where I pull my moral compass from.

Now you're going apples to oranges. I'm talking here about cheating in the game (although I've stated quite a few times I would not support the Rams if they were ever stupid enough to sign Michael Vick). Imagine if we were playing Monopoly, and I was the banker, and I kept slipping money from the bank into my money piles when I thought you weren't looking. Do you still want to play with me? Of course not. Because if there's cheating, there's no point in having a game with other people.

 

[Rambitious1]

I care a lot less about this than the people who post here, that's for sure. If BB was the Rams coach and led them to 4 SBs, no one here would care 1 bit about how he did it.

But I am not a conspiracy theorist and I think the deflating balls fiasco is dumb and a waste of time. I highly doubt the other 31 teams were following this rule.

Oh, so the other teams 'may' be doing it so it's okay. In other words two wrongs make a right. - Uh no.

And to your point about winning, I would care. Cheating is NOT acceptable. Even when you benefit from it.
And I agree that dealing with the inflated balls is a waste of time.

I care more about their taping of walk throughs of opponent teams in Super Bowls, taping and bugging opposing teams locker rooms when they play in NE, having an extra radio frequency in Tom Brady's helmet to speak to him AFTER the league rules say the communication must end, jamming opposing teams radios - to prevent communication between the coaches and players when they play at NE.

So ya, in light of the COLOSSAL amount of cheating that they are doing, yes I agree that the deflating of footballs is just the tip of the iceberg and a waste of time.

Nice try.

 

[mike_2133]

The proof is in common sense, especially with Brady. When a football is deflated to that point, it feels NOTICEABLY different. You can push in on it quite a bit, where you can't do so at all on an inflated one (which is the point of doing it in inclement weather). There is no way a professional QB doesn't notice that... which many professional QBs have pointed out. And Belichick has a lot more to gain than some random ballboy doing it on his own.


They apparently got away with it up until that game (there are reports suggesting that this wasn't the first time they did this.) And their owner is Goodell's buddy, so they know they'll probably skate on this.


Now you're going apples to oranges. I'm talking here about cheating in the game (although I've stated quite a few times I would not support the Rams if they were ever stupid enough to sign Michael Vick). Imagine if we were playing Monopoly, and I was the banker, and I kept slipping money from the bank into my money piles when I thought you weren't looking. Do you still want to play with me? Of course not. Because if there's cheating, there's no point in having a game with other people.

Common sense isn't proof. They had proof that the Pats videotaped practices. As of now, I've seen no definitive proof that the Pats did anything on purpose. You may subscribe to the "once a cheater, always a cheater" theory but I don't.

But the overall idea is that I don't look to morals when I watch sports. I'm also not into conspiracy theories. There's 31 other owners and 1000s of other people involved in the NFL. The league doesn't revolve around NE.

 

[mike_2133]

I would. Cheating is NOT acceptable. Even when you benefit from it.
And I agree that dealing with the inflated balls is a waste of time.

I care more about their taping of walk throughs of opponent teams in Super Bowls, taping and bugging opposing teams locker rooms when they play in NE, having an extra radio frequency in Tom Brady's helmet to speak to him AFTER the league rules say the communication must end, jamming opposing teams radios - to prevent communication between the coaches and players when they play at NE.

So ya, in light of the COLOSSAL amount of cheating that they are doing, yes I agree that the deflating of footballs is just the tip of the iceberg and a waste of time.

Nice try.

I'm totally on board with caring about the taping and etc. But what are we supposed to do - assume now that every possible thing they are accused of is true and take away all of the success they've had?

There has been cheating rampant in every sport forever. I can't imagine how any person who cares this much about the NE situation could ever watch a baseball game.