UFOs

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Elmgrovegnome

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These things are pulling thousands of G's. Think about that. Just from a metallurgy perspective there is nothing we make that can take that. Depending on the weight of our aircraft we are talking max G's being somewhere just short of 10. More than that and you have aircraft falling apart.

People don't realize this. Only way that is possible is if you have full control of gravity in a sphere around your craft. Artificial gravity that can counter the G's and allow for that movement.

But then you also need a propulsion system that has no jets or exhaust. Even we don't have that. If we did we would see that tech rendered in a thousand different ways in our cutting edge warfighting machines.
I read one article a few years ago claiming that what has been thought to be impossible UFO movements are possible. They've been recreated in labs using vacuums. A vacuum would cancel gravity. They have not figured out how they can generate an external vacuum that surrounds their ships though. In the labs it was done on a small scale. The vacuum manipulation sucks the model ship from place to place at incredible speeds and would cancel the sonic boom effect. So they believe that UFOs use that type of technology to defy gravity. Inside a vacuum the passengers would not feel the G forces that our pilots and astronauts deal with.
How do we explain that UFO’s have morphed from mostly saucers to mostly tic tacs?

I also find myself skeptical as to why they visit and hide, all the time? If this has been going on for 50+ years... same visitors? Different? But only observe?

Maybe humans are stupid (if that’s the explanation) but if we could do this... we’d attempt to contact, right?

I watched a documentary about channeling. This guy channels an alien. He claims that we could not handle being in their presence. They reached such a high level of mental capacity in their society that the ESP powers of their brains would damage our own. Their society had reached a state of technological advancement so advanced that they unlocked the full capacity of the brain. They became so consumed with these discoveries and their powers that they reached a level where they can achieve things that were physically impossible, so their bodies devolved as all of their physical resources were channeled to feed their brains. He said maybe in another 50 years we could possibly be able to be in their presence but even then it would be dangerous for humans. TIFWIW.
 

bluecoconuts

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A vacuum would cancel gravity.

Gravity still exists in a vacuum. If we're talking conventional physics, we can easily demonstrate this with the ol feather and the bowling ball experiment.

If we're trying to dabble a bit into quantum physics with the idea of a perfect vacuum, I.E. a state with zero particles, and therefore zero energy, it's not so simple as it violates the uncertainty principle as we would know the value is zero. Unfortunately there are always some particles around somewhere, which negates this. Essentially this means it's impossible to create a perfect vacuum. Even if we're diving into the world of crazy advanced alien technology, that wouldn't really apply.

The reason why our astronauts experience weightlessness in orbit, for example, isn't due to a lack of gravity but rather because the space station is constantly falling back to earth. It's just moving fast enough that it never lands, so the actual sensation that they feel is the same stomach drop feeling you experience when on a rollercoaster. Zero G planes are just planes that climb high and then drop fast, which would essentially be what they needed to do. Figure out a way to artificially recreate that velocity to negate the effects of gravity, without actually increasing the velocity.

It also needs to be a highly customizable thing that would allow them to adjust the amount of velocity for different celestial bodies.

Essentially it's impossible with our current understanding of physics. And while science is an ever evolving thing allowing for weaker theories to hang around (time traveling to the past for example is a weaker theory because of the paradoxes), this one is pretty far beyond our current understanding, that there are more far more reasonable explanations.

The movements of the ships can be recreated in a vacuum if they were to have some sort of crazy large invisible one around the ship that moves with them while also giving them the ability to dart around within it as if there was no resistance. However that wouldn't remove the G's from being felt, it would only allow the movement to take place as it could in open space. The G-forces would be applied to the engines and passengers alike.
 

Merlin

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Blue beat me to it lol. Yeah vacuum has zero effect on gravity. What vacuum would provide for the ship is a frictionless environment to move in.

The Moon is our satellite due to the Earth's gravity. The entire solar system and the universe for that matter operates largely on gravity which is dictated by mass of the objects. Now we don't know where all the gravity comes from to hold things together or why the galaxies are accelerating apart and we're currently blaming dark matter but it's still just as powerful whether it's operating in a vacuum or in an atmosphere.
 

Merlin

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One interesting thing re: levitation and magnetic fields is that they've been levitating non-magnetic objects since the late 30s through the use of intense magnetic fields. Basic idea is that all matter is in fact magnetic with sufficient field strength. This to me at least insinuates an undeniable connection between magnetic fields and suspension of gravity. Or overcoming it. But either way my bet is the next great propulsion advance will be electromagnetic regardless of whether UFOs are proven to be aliens or future humans or whatever.

 

Merlin

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AT LAST, HOW MANY ALIEN CIVILIZATIONS ARE THERE?​

Categories:Alien Life Feature Stories
By Bruno Martini - Nov 30, 2012

aby.jpg
Frank Drake writes out his formula for estimating alien life in the galaxy, the Drake Equation.​


During the space age, 1961 was a special year: the Russian cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin became the first man to orbit Earth, while the American astronomer Frank Drake developed the now famous Drake Equation. This equation estimates the number of detectable extraterrestrial civilizations in our Milky Way galaxy, supposing our present electromagnetic detection methods. The Drake equation states:

N = Ns x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x fL

N
= number of alien civilizations in the Milky Way
Ns = estimated number of stars in the Milky Way;
fp = fraction or percentage of these stars with planets on its orbits;
ne = average number of these planets with potential to host life as we know it;
fl = percentage of these planets that actually develop life;
fi = percentage of these planets that actually develop intelligence on human level;
fc = percentage of these civilizations that actually develop electromagnetic radiation emitting technologies;
fL = percentage of these civilizations that keep emitting electromagnetic signals to space. This factor is extremely dependent on the lifetime a civilization remains electromagnetic communicative.

Looking to the Drake equation factors, it is obvious that none can be precisely determined by modern science. More than that, as we move from the left to right in the equation, estimating each factor becomes more controversial. The later terms are highly speculative, and the values one may attribute to each of them might tell more about a person’s beliefs than about scientific facts.


Gallery_Image_9902.jpg
Claudio Maccone revisits the Drake Equation. Image Credit: SETI League


But the Drake equation must not be evaluated only by the numerical values it produces. Some say the Drake equation is a way to organize our ignorance. By exposing the extraterrestrial intelligence hypothesis mathematically, we limit the real possibilities to each term and approach the final answer: how many alien civilizations are there?

The L term is considered the most important one in Drake equation. We have no idea how long a technological civilization can last. Even if only one extraterrestrial civilization lasts for billions of years, or becomes immortal, the L factor would be enough to reduce Drake’s equation to N = L. Actually, Frank Drake recognizes this in his license plate:

NEQLSL

Among dozens of papers written about the Drake Equation, some have suggested new considerations for the formula. One such paper stands out for adding well-established probabilistic principles from statistics. In 2010, the Italian astronomer Claudio Maccone published in the journal Acta Astronautica the Statistical Drake Equation (SDE). It is mathematically more complex and robust than the Classical Drake Equation (CDE).

The SDE is based on the Central Limit Theorem, which states that given the enough number of independent random variables with finite mean and variance, those variables will be normally distributed as represented by a Gaussian or bell curve in a plot. In this way, each of the seven factors of the Drake Equation become independent positive random variables. In his paper, Maccone tested his SDE using values usually accepted by the SETI community, and the results may be good news for the “alien hunters”.

Although the numerical results were not his objective, Maccone estimated with his SDE that our galaxy may harbor 4,590 extraterrestrial civilizations. Assuming the same values for each term the Classical Drake Equation estimates only 3,500. So the SDE adds more than 1,000 civilizations to the previous estimate.

Gallery_Image_9903.jpg
Gaussian or bell curve showing the probability of finding the nearest extra terrestrial civilization from Earth. Credit: Maccone (2010)


Another SDE advantage is to incorporate the standard variation concept, which shows how much variation exists from the average value. In this case the standard variation concept is pretty high: 11,195. In other words, besides human society, zero to 15,785 advanced technological societies could exist in the Milky Way.

If those galactic societies were equally spaced, they could be at an average distance of 28,845 light-years apart. That’s too far to have a dialogue with them, even through electromagnetic radiation traveling in the speed of light. So, even with such a potentially high number of advanced civilizations, interstellar communication would still be a major technological challenge.

Still, according to SDE, the average distance we should expect to find any alien intelligent life form may be 2,670 light-years from Earth. There is a 75% chance we could find ET between 1,361 and 3,979 light-years away.

500 light-years away, the chance of detecting any signal from an advanced civilization approaches zero. And that is exactly the range in which our present technology is searching for extraterrestrial radio signals. So, the “Great Silence” detected by our radio telescopes is not discouraging at all. Our signals just need to travel a little farther – at least 900 light years more – before they have a high chance of coming across an advanced alien civilization.
 

Merlin

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Irt the above one thing of note is time. When the stars in the galactic center were in their heyday our own was dust. Thus life in the galaxy is separated by time as well as space. This insinuates we are more likely to encounter alien life in our neighborhood IMO.
 

RAMSinLA

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Back in the early 80's I was a weapons tech on a helicopter while serving in the Marine Corps. one night off the coast of San Diego we saw something very strange on our radar. It was moving like nothing man made that we had ever seen. Turned out our 1960's equipment went haywire. LOL
 

RamsAndEwe

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1. I believe intelligent aliens exist. If we exist, the odds are life arose somewhere else in the Universe.
2. I don't believe Aliens have visited Earth. Why?
A. Because they're spacecraft could not exceed the speed of light.
B. The massive Alien (resources and time) expense that Aliens spent to visit Earth would negate any Alien curiosity.

3. If Aliens did visit Earth, I think it more likely that Aliens would send machines and not Alien biology. It's possible that Aliens could disperse self-replicating Von Neumann Machines throughout the galaxy. VNM could use starlight for energy and plentiful space metals for replication. I suspect future Humans will continue to send unmanned craft out into the galaxy before attempting to send manned space craft beyond our solar system.
 

nighttrain

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1. I believe intelligent aliens exist. If we exist, the odds are life arose somewhere else in the Universe.
2. I don't believe Aliens have visited Earth. Why?
A. Because they're spacecraft could not exceed the speed of light.
B. The massive Alien (resources and time) expense that Aliens spent to visit Earth would negate any Alien curiosity.

3. If Aliens did visit Earth, I think it more likely that Aliens would send machines and not Alien biology. It's possible that Aliens could disperse self-replicating Von Neumann Machines throughout the galaxy. VNM could use starlight for energy and plentiful space metals for replication. I suspect future Humans will continue to send unmanned craft out into the galaxy before attempting to send manned space craft beyond our solar system.
wormholes and FTL will make interstellar trips viable, think of what our technology will be if we make it through the next 1000 years without nuking ourselves
train
 

MachS

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wormholes and FTL will make interstellar trips viable, think of what our technology will be if we make it through the next 1000 years without nuking ourselves
train
Yea exactly, and it's not just that- but we are saying that FTL travel is not currently possible, or aliens couldn't visit from other galaxies solely based on our current understanding of physics. For anyone that has studied physics they know how little we actually understand about quantum mechanics. Especially when it comes to quantizing gravity and trying to reconcile QM with General Relativity. We don't understand what happens at the singularity of a black hole, because all our math breaks down and goes to infinity. We do not understand what happened right before the moment of the big bang for the same exact reason. Quantum Mechanics is only 100 years old, approx. the same with Relativity. If alien civilizations have existed for hundreds of thousands, or millions of years, they certainly have a far far far advanced understanding of the universe. Humans are so ignorant. 95% of our known universe is made of of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, both of which we have no clue at all what they are. How is the universe not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion? How are galaxies held together by an invisible sort of gravity that doesn't interact with itself and that we cannot perceive? We're just not smart enough currently to understand these things. Maybe AI will help us get these answers.

These advanced civilizations are very likely living and/or traveling into completely other dimensions, and have advanced so far in their understanding of the universe that we could probably hardly comprehend. It's so incredibly arrogant and naïve when people think we could understand their technology or their understanding of the universe.

You're going to tell me that in one of these galaxies, or the billions of other galaxies, there aren't countless civilizations that have been around far longer than us?? The known universe is 13.8 billion years old.

1622935046961.png
 

CGI_Ram

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wormholes and FTL will make interstellar trips viable, think of what our technology will be if we make it through the next 1000 years without nuking ourselves
train

(y) That’s just it. We need to make it to Type 1 before destroying ourselves.

If there are alien visitors, that might be the message they are sending to us.


Type 0

A civilization that harnesses the energy of its home planet, but not to its full potential just yet.

As you might have guessed, that’s our good old human selves. We’re currently at about 0.73 on the Kardashev Scale. It is presumed we’ll reach type I in about 100 years, give or take, depending on how fast our technology advances and how diligently we procreate.

Type I

A civilization that is capable of harnessing the total energy of its home planet.

This is where we’re heading, whether we want it or not. The good part would be that we’d achieve an ultimate peak, the bad part is that we’d then soon have more energy demand than supply, because evolution can’t be so easily halted. We’d have to leave Earth and start pumping other planets for their worth, or even milk our own star directly for its power.

Regardless, becoming a type I civilization is overall a good thing. At least in fiction.

As a type I civilization, we would be capable of controlling Earth entirely. Maybe even influence the weather, control volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, influence global flora and fauna, geological makeup, plate tectonics, etc. That’s pretty awesome! On the flipside, we’d have to recycle everything to get by.

Type II

An interstellar civilization, capable of harnessing the total energy output of a star.

This is the next stage in the evolution of a civilization, and presumes a level of technological development that allows for gigantic constructions and utmost efficiency. Dyson structures come to mind here, which are gigantic constructs meant to harness the energy of stars.

I imagine a type II civilization would not just built these megastructures, but also inhabit them and completely control what goes on inside them. It would control the orbit of all planets in that system, harvest asteroids and comets at its leisure, and basically consume the entire solar system. An intimidating power to behold.

Type III

A galactic civilization, capable of inhabiting and harnessing the energy of an entire galaxy.

Here we start to venture into truly sexy science-fiction territory. Or am I the only one getting all flushed and tingly at imagining this scale of evolution? *fans herself*

A type III civilization would span the entire galaxy, colonizing and controlling numerous systems. It would be able to harness, store and use the energy output of all stars within that galaxy. Such a civilization would use planets like building blocks, being able to move planets from one solar system to other, merge solar systems, merge stars, absorb supernovae, and even create stars. The galaxy is their playground, and everything in it becomes a toy. Even galactic cat shit, if accidentally dug out. Probably here on Earth.

Type IV

A universal civilization, capable of harnessing the energy of the whole universe.

This civilization would be supergalactic, able to travel throughout the entire universe and consume the energy output of several—possibly all—galaxies. Think of that real estate size!

It would also be capable of projects of gargantuan proportions, such as manipulating space-time and tinkering with entropy, thus reaching immortality on a grand scale. An essentially indestructible and highly utopian civilization.

Type V

A multiverse culture, capable of harnessing the energy of multiple universes.

Welcome to metaphysics! Leave your common sense at the door, and count your strings before entering.

No doubt a child of the increased popularity of string theory, the type V civilization would outgrow its own universe. It would span countless parallel universes, being able to manipulate the very structure of reality.

Find that hard to imagine in practical terms? You’re not alone. We’re all friends here. Have a cookie.

Type VI

Even more abstract is the type VI civilization. The type VI exists outside of time and space, and is capable of creating universes and multiverses, and destroying them just as easily. It’s similar in concept to a deity.

It’s hard to imagine a story with such a civilization, since its perfection and indestructible nature would offer little conflict potential. Unless, of course, you’re a lower type civilization waiting to be chewed, swallowed, and digested by one such type VI monstrosity. Recipe for paraversal tragedy.
 

12intheBox

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wormholes and FTL will make interstellar trips viable, think of what our technology will be if we make it through the next 1000 years without nuking ourselves
train

Probably really bad ass weapons, great erectile dysfunction medication, and out of this world sex toys. Technology progresses where the research is funded.
 

bluecoconuts

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Probably really bad ass weapons, great erectile dysfunction medication, and out of this world sex toys. Technology progresses where the research is funded.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

Our best and brightest aren't working on space travel or space anything, they're working on bombs and missiles. That's where all the money is, and those companies prey on you right out of school. They laid it on thick for me being a veteran, but since I didn't need the money I went to work for JPL and NASA... Where I was promptly shoved in front of congress to beg for some of that weapons money by trying to link our research to some sort of "we can use this in war" crap. I've told sitting senators that we can develop blackhole technology to deploy a blackhole on the battlefield to suck in our enemies (not), it's real fucking stupid. Going to a research university with a big lab grant and the first thing they had me doing was working on missiles, funding for other projects were cut, the only protected funding was government funding and those are all weapons R&D. Everything is about what can produce the most short term profit rather than investing in the future. The reason why we have all these advanced technologies is because we were investing in our future by allowing our researchers to do their job, a lot of the things that we enjoy today we discovered accidentally by following various seemingly completely unrelated research questions, and then boom, we figured out the internet. Now anytime we want to research something it's "Okay, but what can you use this for? I don't care about knowledge, I need a real thing that can make money if I'm investing money."

It's why I left the field, it's why I'm going back to school again and switching gears entirely. Priorities are so fucked, it's likely never going to happen, we're well on the path to killing ourselves long before we ever make it off this rock.

Sorry to be the piss cloud over the parade deck, but at this point I'm hoping that an alien civilization will be able to record our existence before the sun swallows up all the evidence.
 

Merlin

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A civilization that harnesses the energy of its home planet, but not to its full potential just yet.
I love his idea of looking at a civilization by their energy output. Which, btw, probably becomes the way advanced civilizations estimate each other once they gain the technology to change energy to matter and vice versa. But his actual rankings might look funny a thousand years from now if we don't kill ourselves, because they might invent power sources that can far exceed what we expect. In fact I am of the mind that is likely.

Our best and brightest aren't working on space travel or space anything, they're working on bombs and missiles.
You know what's funny too BC? Is that is the nature of life. Create a petri dish of single celled organisms and competition begins. All life preys on life. So I think by extension of that overcoming that tendency through social development is the single most crucial hurdle facing any developing species.

But once you overcome that does your technological development slow? Because competition is what provides the breeding ground for advancement of technology. If for example we were to install a one world government today and eradicate individual nations would we settle in with a complete focus on things like superficial upgrades for better selfies?

I don't know the answer to a lot of questions like this btw. I just think about this stuff a lot. Like I wonder if competition in fact can be removed and a society can still function long-term with greatest benefit to its people. The nature of life is harsh. To what extent can we remove that and still produce individuals who are worth a shit.

I love Einstein's quote about sovereign nations and all that but as I watch what happens to culture during peaceful periods I wonder how you combat the social decay. But maybe that's a different conversation outside of saying that this is something that every advanced alien species has overcome if they have thrived for much longer than we have.
 

bluecoconuts

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I love his idea of looking at a civilization by their energy output. Which, btw, probably becomes the way advanced civilizations estimate each other once they gain the technology to change energy to matter and vice versa. But his actual rankings might look funny a thousand years from now if we don't kill ourselves, because they might invent power sources that can far exceed what we expect. In fact I am of the mind that is likely.


You know what's funny too BC? Is that is the nature of life. Create a petri dish of single celled organisms and competition begins. All life preys on life. So I think by extension of that overcoming that tendency through social development is the single most crucial hurdle facing any developing species.

But once you overcome that does your technological development slow? Because competition is what provides the breeding ground for advancement of technology. If for example we were to install a one world government today and eradicate individual nations would we settle in with a complete focus on things like superficial upgrades for better selfies?

I don't know the answer to a lot of questions like this btw. I just think about this stuff a lot. Like I wonder if competition in fact can be removed and a society can still function long-term with greatest benefit to its people. The nature of life is harsh. To what extent can we remove that and still produce individuals who are worth a shit.

I love Einstein's quote about sovereign nations and all that but as I watch what happens to culture during peaceful periods I wonder how you combat the social decay. But maybe that's a different conversation outside of saying that this is something that every advanced alien species has overcome if they have thrived for much longer than we have.

That's actually part of what I'm shifting focus to, looking at human societal behavior among different cultures over time. There's some good philosophical discussions that could be had about the nature of human cooperation and competition, but that would probably jump into some pretty touchy subjects, and definitely would be off topic for this thread.

Comparing the history of Ireland as I learned in Ireland vs the history of Ireland via the lens of the British as most of the world learns gives you two different stories for example. Moving back home and to the Gaeltacht opened me back up to a lot of old stories and legends that I had forgotten which really piqued my interest in examining recorded history of various indigenous people as told by them. I think we have a lot more to learn about human nature and the history of our planet from these groups than previously thought.

The Cascadia Subduction Zone is actually a great example of this, had people spoken to indigenous tribes about the history of the area they would have learned stories about the quake happening around 1700, we didn't figure out the risk until the 90's, long after it was too late. Very interesting stuff.. Also not at all maths or physics based like I am currently.. There's a running joke in academia that mathematics and physics professors eventually go crazy, and it's been 16 months since my last haircut, so I'm probably heading down that path now. I just want to get some answers and my ADHD will hardly let me focus on anything else. :LOL:

I probably wont ever get any answers either, so I'll just continue to hold out hope that if aliens do come they've undergone that realization and wont immediately stamp us out upon arrival. War leads to an arms race that better protects you from a strong enemy, which is why European explorers were able to dominate more peaceful groups easier, so does that mean only a conquering civilization can advance?

I've also been watching Independence Day :zany:
 

Merlin

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Highlights:

- 144 reports mentioned. 80 of those were with multiple sensors. 143 are unexplained (one was a balloon).

- They do not rule out foreign adversaries.

- They do not rule out Aliens.

- 18 include advanced technology they cannot explain.

- 11 near misses.

I'm disappointed they didn't put out some of the footage they have (in particular the 18 advanced tech cases), though now maybe it's easier going forward for that stuff to happen. Maybe in coming weeks we'll see some of that stuff openly offered up for public consumption.
 

Loyal

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Highlights:

- 144 reports mentioned. 80 of those were with multiple sensors. 143 are unexplained (one was a balloon).

- They do not rule out foreign adversaries.

- They do not rule out Aliens.

- 18 include advanced technology they cannot explain.

- 11 near misses.

I'm disappointed they didn't put out some of the footage they have (in particular the 18 advanced tech cases), though now maybe it's easier going forward for that stuff to happen. Maybe in coming weeks we'll see some of that stuff openly offered up for public consumption.
Secret Merlin selfie....

tw0UGrW.gif
 

XXXIVwin

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Report seemed pretty underwhelming TBH

Thought they might release some new vids
 

CGI_Ram

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What’s Inside the Pentagon’s Long-Awaited UFO Report​

What does the report conclude?​

Not much, at least regarding what these objects actually were or where they might have come from. The assessment says that the lack of “high-quality reporting” on the events “hampers our ability to draw firm conclusions about the nature or intent of UAP.” In other words, they still don’t know what the UAP were, though the report suggests a range of possible explanations.

While the assessment says that available reporting on UAP is “largely inconclusive,” it nonetheless concludes:
  • There is currently no evidence that any of the objects are related to a secret U.S. weapons program or were developed by foreign adversaries.
  • The clustering of sightings near U.S. military bases may just be the result of several kinds of collection bias.
  • Most of the UAP probably were physical objects, since most were detected in multiple ways, including via “radar, infrared, electro-optical, weapon seekers, and visual observation.” In addition, there are probably multiple types of UAP.
  • Objects exhibiting unusual flight characteristics (like the ones which appeared to demonstrate advanced technological capabilities) could also “be the result of sensor errors, spoofing, or observer misperception” and “require additional rigorous analysis.”
  • Regarding whether or not these objects represent a threat, the report says that UAP “clearly pose” a risk to flight safety in the increasingly crowded skies, and “may pose a challenge” to national security, particularly if the UAP were developed by foreign adversaries and indicate “a potential adversary has developed either a breakthrough or disruptive technology.”
  • The U.S. needs to collect and analyze more information, consolidate reporting, develop a more efficient way of screening and processing the reports.

What does the report say about aliens?​

Nothing. The report makes no mention of extraterrestrial life and never even implies that any of the reported UAP could be of extraterrestrial origin. That doesn’t mean the task force has ruled that possibility out, however.

The report lists five possible explanations for UAP​

While the report does not offer much in the way of explanation for the objects, it offers five categories of possible explanations:
  • Airborne clutter, including birds, balloons, drones, or airborne debris.
  • Natural atmospheric phenomena, including “ice crystals, moisture, and thermal fluctuations that may register on some infrared and radar systems.”
  • U.S.-developed technology, i.e. classified technology developed by the U.S. or its industry partners.
  • Technology developed by foreign adversaries (on Earth), like Russia, China, or other government or non-government entities.
  • Other, a catchall for encounters where there isn’t enough information to determine categorization (which could include UAP of extraterrestrial origin).