Roughing the passer.

[FrantikRam]

Major difference between the two: Rivers was moving and Smith was not.

Even if that doesn't change the rule, it definitely changes the official's perspective.

 

[FrantikRam]

Honestly, I may be starting to agree with the NFL's overall point. Never heard it explained like this, but this is how I'm starting to think of it:

Defenders make two kind of "tackles":

Tackling a player to the ground in a manner that looks completely nonviolent - this mostly happens when the offensive player is prepared and trying to make the defender miss.

A "hit" - this looks violent and defensive players use this as intimidation (best case) or to cause injury (worst case).


I don't like this body weight thing because it doesn't really fall into either of my above categories there - but I do understand the overall point, and all defensive players have to do is tackle the QB as if they were tackling a RB in the open field. Wrap up and bring them down. I say that like getting a sack is easy, which it's not - because they have to navigate the OL and then they have to actually get the QB.

But defensive players have done this to themselves - too often they opt for the big hit when it's unnecessary, and from an ownership perspective, it makes complete sense to protect all the QBs.

 

[fearsomefour]

0.0

 

[Loyal]

Honestly, I may be starting to agree with the NFL's overall point. Never heard it explained like this, but this is how I'm starting to think of it:

Defenders make two kind of "tackles":

Tackling a player to the ground in a manner that looks completely nonviolent - this mostly happens when the offensive player is prepared and trying to make the defender miss.

A "hit" - this looks violent and defensive players use this as intimidation (best case) or to cause injury (worst case).


I don't like this body weight thing because it doesn't really fall into either of my above categories there - but I do understand the overall point, and all defensive players have to do is tackle the QB as if they were tackling a RB in the open field. Wrap up and bring them down. I say that like getting a sack is easy, which it's not - because they have to navigate the OL and then they have to actually get the QB.

But defensive players have done this to themselves - too often they opt for the big hit when it's unnecessary, and from an ownership perspective, it makes complete sense to protect all the QBs.

I think they are ruining the game. QB's are football players and deserve to get hit like one if they have the ball. Otherwise get them a ballet outfit...pink, preferably.

 

[RamBall]

Using that judgement no one who breaks free unimpeded to the QB will ever be able to hit them again without drawing a flag. I understand what everyone is saying but I just don't see how Mathews could have done anything else on that play. A person unimpeded to the QB is going to violently hit them, it's just physics. So everyone needs to slow down now enough to not make it violent looking? It's impossible. Not arguing with you because I understand. I guess they just need to hit the QB and hope they fall down without following through with the tackle. That won't work on a Cam Newton. Just another tough situation they've put refs and defenders in.



I agree, no flag was the correct call.

If the defender is running full speed at the QB all he has to do is wrap and roll, like Longacre did last week. If the defender chooses to drive the QB into the ground he can expect a flag. Its not like they are saying you cant sack the QB, they are saying you cant try to injure the QB. And like when Suh took Rivers down he didnt drive Rivers to the ground he just wrapped and they went down, no picking him up and driving him down. The Rams have been coaching their DL to wrap and roll since Fisher was the coach. This may have something to do with why the Rams dont keep repeating the same action and getting flagged like Mathews does. People that say it is making the game soft, have obviously never stood in the pocket and taken a shot without flinching. Ask Goff if he thinks that the new rule makes his position less tough, he stands in there and takes shots, gets up and does it again. It is fans that have never been hit by an NFL defender that think the rule is making the game soft, the players that complain about it are just upset because they got caught breaking the rules.

 

[Mackeyser]

The point was to stop the big defenders from purposefully pile driving QBs or purposefully landing on the QB to rattle them or get them out of the game.

This rule goes so far the other way that it's absurd.

Worse, the league belligerently refuses to instruct players on alternatives like they did with the helmet to helmet stuff.

"Heads up, wrap up" is what they're told and all players were given clear guidance.

Except, now, with QBs because Heads up, wrap up is exactly NOT how to tackle a QB.

How long before some defender figures, "well, since I'm gonna get flagged, might as well make it count" and really really injures a QB.

 

[Mackeyser]

If the defender is running full speed at the QB all he has to do is wrap and roll, like Longacre did last week. If the defender chooses to drive the QB into the ground he can expect a flag. Its not like they are saying you cant sack the QB, they are saying you cant try to injure the QB. And like when Suh took Rivers down he didnt drive Rivers to the ground he just wrapped and they went down, no picking him up and driving him down. The Rams have been coaching their DL to wrap and roll since Fisher was the coach. This may have something to do with why the Rams dont keep repeating the same action and getting flagged like Mathews does. People that say it is making the game soft, have obviously never stood in the pocket and taken a shot without flinching. Ask Goff if he thinks that the new rule makes his position less tough, he stands in there and takes shots, gets up and does it again. It is fans that have never been hit by an NFL defender that think the rule is making the game soft, the players that complain about it are just upset because they got caught breaking the rules.

Tell that to William Hayes.

It's not always possible to "wrap and roll" and to force that gets injuries like what happened to Hayes.

 

[RamBall]

And according to Ed Hocuhli it was text book roughing because Matthews weight landed on the QB. You have to roll away after hitting them some how. So again, Suh's sack should have been a penalty because his whole weight landed on the QB. If you're going by the strict sense of the rule "no weight on the QB". It shouldn't be in my eyes but based on rules Suh's weight fell onto Rivers. So be prepared for that to be a penalty if the ref so chooses. Rules that cause refs to make judgement calls are never good.


https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-clay-matthews-hit-alex-002540306.html

The NFL’s new focus on roughing the passer has once again created a Sunday evening ruckus. And, once again, Packers linebacker Clay Matthews is smack dab in the middle of it all.

But the NFL insists that today’s call — a penalty arising from Matthews landing on Washington quarterback Alex Smith with all or most of his body weight — was the right call. Former NFL referee, and current NFL consultant, Ed Hocuhli explained the reasoning to PFT by phone, not long before the start of this week’s edition of Football Night in America.

Calling it a “textbook” case of roughing, Hochuli said that the hit by Matthews falls squarely within the point of emphasis regarding the roughing passer foul, as it relates to the placement of all or most of the defender’s body weight on the passer.

“They’ve been calling it this way for six weeks,” Hochuli said. “It’s as clear of an example of roughing the passer as you could have.”

So what should Matthews have done differently? Hochuli said that the solution is simple. Matthews had two steps before hitting Smith. The league expects Matthews in that situation to hit him and roll to the side, landing with Matthews’ body weight on the ground, not on the passer.

“If I could show an example of fully body weight on a passer,” Hochuli said, “that would be the play.”

Players, coaches, fans, and media may not like it that way, but that’s the way it is. The league has decided to protect its quarterbacks, because the league knows that the quality of the product suffers greatly when the best quarterbacks aren’t on the field.

Suh didnt lift Rivers off the ground and drive his weight into Rivers, he just wrapped him up and they went to the ground. Mathews hit Smith took a step or two and drove his shoulder into Smith. When Suh and Rivers went down there was no momentum lifting Rivers off the ground and Suh didnt drive his weight into Rivers. The only thing the 2 plays have in common is a defender taking down a QB, but they were each done in a different manner.

 

[RamBall]

The point was to stop the big defenders from purposefully pile driving QBs or purposefully landing on the QB to rattle them or get them out of the game.

This rule goes so far the other way that it's absurd.

Worse, the league belligerently refuses to instruct players on alternatives like they did with the helmet to helmet stuff.

"Heads up, wrap up" is what they're told and all players were given clear guidance.

Except, now, with QBs because Heads up, wrap up is exactly NOT how to tackle a QB.

How long before some defender figures, "well, since I'm gonna get flagged, might as well make it count" and really really injures a QB.

The Rams have been coaching their DL to wrap and roll since Fisher was the head coach so the technique is nothing new. And the players know what they are doing when the drive their weight into the QB, so they should not act surprised when they get caught. If a player is athletic enough to make it to the NFL, he most certainly has the ability to control his body and make the game safer for the QB as well as himself.

 

[Mackeyser]

This guy gets it. Same game. Same refs. How is the Matthews a roughing, but the Washington player's isn't?

It's obnoxious how badly this is being handled.


View: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1043945512485957632



View: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1043945839859773440

 

[Mackeyser]

The Rams have been coaching their DL to wrap and roll since Fisher was the head coach so the technique is nothing new. And the players know what they are doing when the drive their weight into the QB, so they should not act surprised when they get caught. If a player is athletic enough to make it to the NFL, he most certainly has the ability to control his body and make the game safer for the QB as well as himself.

Counterpoint: William Hayes.

 

[Loyal]

Let's ask Deacon what he thinks of this sissy-assed rule...

 

[RamBall]

This guy gets it. Same game. Same refs. How is the Matthews a roughing, but the Washington player's isn't?

It's obnoxious how badly this is being handled.


View: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1043945512485957632



View: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1043945839859773440

Those 2 hits are nothing alike. Mathews lead with his helmet to Smiths shoulder so that itself could be roughing, then he drives his weight into Smith as they hit the ground. The Washington player slung Rodgers to the ground but didnt drive Rodgers to the ground and didnt drive his weight into Rodgers.

 

[RamBall]

Counterpoint: William Hayes.

Is there video showing how Hayes tore his ACL trying to avoid landing on Carr? I cant find any video showing the injury just coach Gase stating that it happened because Hayes tried not to land on Carr. I suspect the video would show Hayes doing something other than wrap and roll.
I just saw a replay, I dont see how anything he did after leaping could have torn his ACL, the air doesnt have enough force to do that. It was the leap that probably injured his ACL, and as that is a shame, if he had wrapped and rolled the outcome could have been much different or maybe not. But to blame the new rule is just looking for a reason to say see we shouldnt try to make the game safer, it causes more injuries when we try to not injure the QB. It didnt really look like Hayes tried not to land on Carr as he drove his shoulder into Carr as Carr hit the ground.

 

[OldSchool]

Is there video showing how Hayes tore his ACL trying to avoid landing on Carr? I cant find any video showing the injury just coach Gase stating that it happened because Hayes tried not to land on Carr. I suspect the video would show Hayes doing something other than wrap and roll.

Page two of this thread.

 

[RamBall]

You will never convince me that a grown man does not have the body control to wrap and roll. Or that he is not trying to inflict an injury when he drives his weight into the QB. Why is it only sacks where the defender drives his weight into the ball carrier? DBs dont drive their weight into WRs when tackling them, they hit them but dont piledrive them. Piledriving is not a tackling technique, it belongs in the WWE.

 

[Mackeyser]

Those 2 hits are nothing alike. Mathews lead with his helmet to Smiths shoulder so that itself could be roughing, then he drives his weight into Smith as they hit the ground. The Washington player slung Rodgers to the ground but didnt drive Rodgers to the ground and didnt drive his weight into Rodgers.

okay, we're just going to have to agree to disagree because the Washington player ABSOLUTELY drove Rodgers into the ground AND drove his weight into him.

The video is conclusive.

Also, what you call "helmet to the shoulder" is in fact putting the helmet to the side, which was the instruction from the NFL on what they wanted defenders to do. That is absolutely NOT roughing or spearing.

The issue here is the clear video and the obnoxiously nebulous interpretation and implementation of these new rules.

For real, if you can't see that Rodgers was driven into the turf and that was a textbook roughing call, then we just have nothing to discuss

 

[Mackeyser]

You will never convince me that a grown man does not have the body control to wrap and roll. Or that he is not trying to inflict an injury when he drives his weight into the QB. Why is it only sacks where the defender drives his weight into the ball carrier? DBs dont drive their weight into WRs when tackling them, they hit them but dont piledrive them. Piledriving is not a tackling technique, it belongs in the WWE.

DBs don't...what???

Yes they freaking do....all the time, actually.

 

[RocknRam29]

Trying to sack an NFL QB in 2018 without getting flagged...


View: https://www.facebook.com/MEMES.of.the.NFL/videos/942542082622892/

 

[1maGoh]

This guy gets it. Same game. Same refs. How is the Matthews a roughing, but the Washington player's isn't?

It's obnoxious how badly this is being handled.


View: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1043945512485957632



View: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1043945839859773440

The second one was wrap and roll? I mean, you really can't roll any harder than that. Also, what's the "in the grasp" rule?