Over My Dead Body

[Warner4Prez]

42 books published between 1875 and 1930

It's 2014.

Meaning and intent has changed, again I don't like Snyder he is a POS, but his team's name is not a slur in this era. From 1875-1930 maybe it was, but we live in 2014.

Want a Seahawks between your lips? Would you like to discuss the Jokers boner?

Words mean things, sometimes those things change.

The only reason I bring it up is because there's this myth that when the team was founded (1932) it was in honor of Native Americans, well there you have it, the word was used as a slur then and as I've witnessed myself, is a slur still.

 

[Thordaddy]

The only reason I bring it up is because there's this myth that when the team was founded (1932) it was in honor of Native Americans, well there you have it, the word was used as a slur then and as I've witnessed myself, is a slur still.

So your contention then is that an NFL owner would give his team a name that degraded Native Americans and the team right along with it,that's pretty convoluted,what you think it was a joke? those guys ,many of them, risked near their entire worth to start those teams some borrowed money to do so .

It takes some serious near nearsightedness as well to think Dan Snyder would WANT to perpetuate a name if he himself regarded it in a pejorative way. Quit it just quit it, when you speak YOU KNOW what you mean, you won't stand for people twisting your words and that's exactly what's being done here.

The left has these basic arguments when you disagree with them, you are , racist, sexist, homophobic, greedy and they expect those charges to over shadow the fact that just even being any of those things isn't a crime much less that the charges aren't true. Once we get into debating THIS point the right to freedom of speech is ceded and I don't intend to do that ,the patent court ruling should be overturned by whatever court it takes to do so up to the Supreme Court.

Funny how some recording artists are coming out to oppose Snyder as well and comedians , like fools they don't seem to understand their work is protected by the same patent laws and they are as vulnerable to losing their copyright protections because they use words universally accepted as having racist meaning.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Being racist, sexist, or homophobic isn't a crime and I don't think anyone is trying to jail people for it. It does make you a shitty person though, and I don't think there's any reason why it shouldn't be known. Racism, sexism, homophobism it transcends all groups and it's a all equally shameful.

People have the right to spew their crap speech and others have the right to call them out for it. Free speech is not absolute, and when we start to act like it is then we stop debating in reality.

 

[Prime Time]

Plaintiff in Redskins patent case urges Chiefs to change their name
Posted by Michael David Smith on June 26, 2014

Getty Images

The Washington Redskins aren’t the only NFL team whose name bothers some Native Americans.

The Kansas City Chiefs should also change their name to avoid giving offense, according to Amanda Blackhorse, the lead plaintiff in the case that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office just decided against the Redskins.

“I’m not sure there’s anything the [Chiefs] can do at this point other than look for another name,” Blackhorse told the Kansas City Star. “They could be the team that says, ‘You know what? We understand the issue and we don’t want to be Dan Snyder and fight this in court forever. We want to do the right thing and move forward and avoid this entire battle.’ I’m sure fans will be upset, but still, that’s doing the right thing. If they want to be sensitive to Native American people, that’s the thing to do.”

Blackhorse’s sister, Kristy Blackhorse, is part of a group of Native Americans in Arizona who plan to protest at two Cardinals games this season — not only when the Redskins come to town in October, but also when the Chiefs come to town in December.

There are fundamental differences between the Chiefs and the Redskins, especially that dictionaries define “chief” as a term of respect and “redskin” as a slur. The Kansas City Chiefs have kept a low profile during the debate, hoping that they can continue to use their team name without the controversy that has swirled around the Redskins. If Blackhorse has her way, the Chiefs won’t avoid controversy for long.

 

[Thordaddy]

It's the camels nose under the tent , fuck em ,there's a first amendment that covers this and that should be the end of it for everyone who wants their own rights protected.

 

[Warner4Prez]

So your contention then is that an NFL owner would give his team a name that degraded Native Americans and the team right along with it,that's pretty convoluted,what you think it was a joke? those guys ,many of them, risked near their entire worth to start those teams some borrowed money to do so.

I can't pretend to know what was in George Marshall's mind when he purchased and named the team, though I'm certain he never envisioned the NFL turning into a multi-billion dollar industry. Or society becoming quite so touchy-feely. The truth is he was a pretty notorious racist though. And he changed the name from the Braves to the Redskins to keep the logo of his team. Sounds more like a calculated business decision than a move made to honor a collective people.

It takes some serious near nearsightedness as well to think Dan Snyder would WANT to perpetuate a name if he himself regarded it in a pejorative way. Quit it just quit it, when you speak YOU KNOW what you mean, you won't stand for people twisting your words and that's exactly what's being done here.

In the late 80's early 90's there was another swell of pressure to change the name. Snyder purchased the team in 1999. The patent office has rejected claims to patent "Redskins" 12 times since 1993. Snyder knew full well what he was getting himself into when he purchased the team. It'd take some wishful thinking on his part to think he could sweep this all under the rug and never have it see the light of day again.

I don't view this as any sort of political argument. More idealogical. That's why I'm content to let the concerned parties have it out against one another without the intervention of Senators and Congressmen. But I'd venture the guess that it'd be far from a fair fight without them.

 

[Thordaddy]

I can't pretend to know what was in George Marshall's mind when he purchased and named the team, though I'm certain he never envisioned the NFL turning into a multi-billion dollar industry. Or society becoming quite so touchy-feely. The truth is he was a pretty notorious racist though. And he changed the name from the Braves to the Redskins to keep the logo of his team. Sounds more like a calculated business decision than a move made to honor a collective people.



In the late 80's early 90's there was another swell of pressure to change the name. Snyder purchased the team in 1999. The patent office has rejected claims to patent "Redskins" 12 times since 1993. Snyder knew full well what he was getting himself into when he purchased the team. It'd take some wishful thinking on his part to think he could sweep this all under the rug and never have it see the light of day again.

I don't view this as any sort of political argument. More idealogical. That's why I'm content to let the concerned parties have it out against one another without the intervention of Senators and Congressmen. But I'd venture the guess that it'd be far from a fair fight without them.

You don't see this as political when 49 Senators ALL Dems. and a Dem President line up to clamor for the name change and NOT ONE Republican did?
When all were charged with defending the constitution?

Hell yes it's political and FWIW some of those Dem Senators have some really nasty racial history, they could give two shits about the Redskin name ,it's just more government control they're seeking and using this issue as a vehicle,can't imagine it's not apparent to anyone who isn't in a state of willful suspension of disbelief.

 

[Warner4Prez]

You don't see this as political when 49 Senators ALL Dems. and a Dem President line up to clamor for the name change and NOT ONE Republican did?
When all were charged with defending the constitution?

Hell yes it's political and FWIW some of those Dem Senators have some really nasty racial history, they could give two shits about the Redskin name ,it's just more government control they're seeking and using this issue as a vehicle,can't imagine it's not apparent to anyone who isn't in a state of willful suspension of disbelief.

Republican Congressman Tom Cole also wrote a letter urging the name be changed. And John McCain said if it were his team, he'd change the name as well. But if we just want to change this to a Socialist-Liberal witch hunt we can do that.

 

[Sum1]

It's the camels nose under the tent , freak em ,there's a first amendment that covers this and that should be the end of it for everyone who wants their own rights protected.

Here is an article that very nicely points out reasons why I 100% disagree with you that this is a 1st amendment issue.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/...sts/2014/06/25/page-column-redskins/11374787/

 

[Sum1]

Plaintiff in Redskins patent case urges Chiefs to change their name
Posted by Michael David Smith on June 26, 2014

Getty Images

The Washington Redskins aren’t the only NFL team whose name bothers some Native Americans.

The Kansas City Chiefs should also change their name to avoid giving offense, according to Amanda Blackhorse, the lead plaintiff in the case that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office just decided against the Redskins.

“I’m not sure there’s anything the [Chiefs] can do at this point other than look for another name,” Blackhorse told the Kansas City Star. “They could be the team that says, ‘You know what? We understand the issue and we don’t want to be Dan Snyder and fight this in court forever. We want to do the right thing and move forward and avoid this entire battle.’ I’m sure fans will be upset, but still, that’s doing the right thing. If they want to be sensitive to Native American people, that’s the thing to do.”

Blackhorse’s sister, Kristy Blackhorse, is part of a group of Native Americans in Arizona who plan to protest at two Cardinals games this season — not only when the Redskins come to town in October, but also when the Chiefs come to town in December.

There are fundamental differences between the Chiefs and the Redskins, especially that dictionaries define “chief” as a term of respect and “redskin” as a slur. The Kansas City Chiefs have kept a low profile during the debate, hoping that they can continue to use their team name without the controversy that has swirled around the Redskins. If Blackhorse has her way, the Chiefs won’t avoid controversy for long.

This is where I don't see a cause from that side of the argument. Unless my understanding of a Native American chief is wrong, this doesn't seem much different than a team being called the Senators, Generals, etc. I don't see this as anything derogatory but I'd like to hear this groups view. Perhaps some of the symbols maybe...but not the name.

I think the Cleveland Indians is really in a grey area. Do Native Americans dislike being called Indians? I've wondered this. If it is an accepted name for Native Americans and is not offensive then I don't see this being different than the Yankees, Canucks, or Canadians.

 

[Thordaddy]

Here is an article that very nicely points out reasons why I 100% disagree with you that this is a 1st amendment issue.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/...sts/2014/06/25/page-column-redskins/11374787/

OK I read it and the guy pretty well admits he's in the minority on his opinion

"A lot of my fellow First Amendment advocates sound nervous about cancellation of the Washington pro football team's trademark by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office."

And if you DON'T think this is political , why not find me an article by a conservative ,cuz that is a far left page if I ever saw one ,I mean Joe Conason is one of the most hard bitten leftists (his column is in the margin)

What you need to realize is this issue is a vehicle, it's not about right and wrong it's about the power to bully using the government to help you.
AND if you doubt that why are these same f-ing people going after the Chiefs?

Oh and I love the dictionary appeal to authority argument, as if someone with an attitude doesn't write dictionaries
Item:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexismCached
Full Definition of SEXISM 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women

OH REALLY? ESPECIALLY? no attitude there

The Patent Office is acting like Jim Crow Law in reverse.

 

[Thordaddy]

Republican Congressman Tom Cole also wrote a letter urging the name be changed. And John McCain said if it were his team, he'd change the name as well. But if we just want to change this to a Socialist-Liberal witch hunt we can do that.

They didn't sign the pettition to force ,certainly there are conservative who think he aught to change the name maybe as many as there are liberals ,but they aren't using their office and the government to effect it SO, if it's a witch hunt it's a bunch of socialist-liberals doing it.

Hey Prime how about you merge these two threads,they're basically the same subject.

FWIW IF I owned the team,I don't know what I'd do, I do know the more I was bullied in this way the more I'd dig in,so I strongly identify with Snyder for that reason.

I promise you if he ends up capitulating the left will trumpet it as one of their wondrous victories for symbolism.

 

[Sum1]

OK I read it and the guy pretty well admits he's in the minority on his opinion

"A lot of my fellow First Amendment advocates sound nervous about cancellation of the Washington pro football team's trademark by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office."

And if you DON'T think this is political , why not find me an article by a conservative ,cuz that is a far left page if I ever saw one ,I mean Joe Conason is one of the most hard bitten leftists (his column is in the margin)

What you need to realize is this issue is a vehicle, it's not about right and wrong it's about the power to bully using the government to help you.
AND if you doubt that why are these same f-ing people going after the Chiefs?

Oh and I love the dictionary appeal to authority argument, as if someone with an attitude doesn't write dictionaries
Item:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexismCached
Full Definition of SEXISM 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women

OH REALLY? ESPECIALLY? no attitude there

The Patent Office is acting like Jim Crow Law in reverse.

It might be political to you. It might be political to some of the parties involved. It isn't political to me...if it was then I'd be steadfast as conservative as anyone could be. I'm very much a republican on 99% of issues.

However, on this particular issue when I look at all the facts and cases made I see much more logical arguments on one side verses the other. As I've mentioned before, I have no passionate stake with this subject at its root, but as a sports fan and a member of this country when I look at the topic this is much more logical.

I am curious what the case against the Chiefs could be, as I mentioned in an earlier post. It does make me wonder if it has more to do with how things end up working in America. For example...in a law suit a person is really wanting say $50K....but they sue for the max of the insurance claim at $500K because thats what their attorney has suggested, knowing that they can either get more than originally wanted because the insurance company is likely just going to settle...or it is going to get a ruling for less than the suit anyway. Just one theory.

I see some of your points...and I think they are valid to consider. But I also get the impression that you just against the idea of the name change for tradition reasons and are looking for any argument against the idea, including discounting what may be a genuine sentiment behind the group involved to the point you make accusations of making the issue about bullying America.

 

[Warner4Prez]

They didn't sign the pettition to force ,certainly there are conservative who think he aught to change the name maybe as many as there are liberals ,but they aren't using their office and the government to effect it SO, if it's a witch hunt it's a bunch of socialist-liberals doing it.

Hey Prime how about you merge these two threads,they're basically the same subject.

FWIW IF I owned the team,I don't know what I'd do, I do know the more I was bullied in this way the more I'd dig in,so I strongly identify with Snyder for that reason.

I promise you if he ends up capitulating the left will trumpet it as one of their wondrous victories for symbolism.

I agree with that. That's why I think it's less about politics and more about show. As with most issues we face as a nation, the emphasis isn't placed on how can we fix this, it's how can I impress the left or the right. Common sense is out of the window on both sides and it's become all about strutting for the camera, thumping your chest and trying to convince America that blind faith in your side is all that matters. Pride takes precedence over actual problem solving. Sickening.

 

[Thordaddy]

I agree with that. That's why I think it's less about politics and more about show. As with most issues we face as a nation, the emphasis isn't placed on how can we fix this, it's how can I impress the left or the right. Common sense is out of the window on both sides and it's become all about strutting for the camera, thumping your chest and trying to convince America that blind faith in your side is all that matters. Pride takes precedence over actual problem solving. Sickening.

So why fall in line with the troublemakers? Surely you don't believe that with all the team mascots across this country they were all ,nay any, intended to insult,I stand with those who say this is government going where it shouldn't and therefore with the truly attacked,there's no mistaking the intent of one side of this, you need no projection they've made their malicious intent quite clear.

 

[Thordaddy]

It might be political to you. It might be political to some of the parties involved. It isn't political to me...if it was then I'd be steadfast as conservative as anyone could be. I'm very much a republican on 99% of issues.

However, on this particular issue when I look at all the facts and cases made I see much more logical arguments on one side verses the other. As I've mentioned before, I have no passionate stake with this subject at its root, but as a sports fan and a member of this country when I look at the topic this is much more logical.

I am curious what the case against the Chiefs could be, as I mentioned in an earlier post. It does make me wonder if it has more to do with how things end up working in America. For example...in a law suit a person is really wanting say $50K....but they sue for the max of the insurance claim at $500K because thats what their attorney has suggested, knowing that they can either get more than originally wanted because the insurance company is likely just going to settle...or it is going to get a ruling for less than the suit anyway. Just one theory.

I see some of your points...and I think they are valid to consider. But I also get the impression that you just against the idea of the name change for tradition reasons and are looking for any argument against the idea, including discounting what may be a genuine sentiment behind the group involved to the point you make accusations of making the issue about bullying America.

Actually there are a few misconceptions here, first of all if you really do back the Republican party 99% you only think you're a conservative.

Now skipping to the end ,I'm not grasping at straws, and one of the things through these arguments you might have gleaned unless you only read my posts there are THOUSANDS of athletic teams named for Native Americans across this nation, to single out Snyders team as being racist for his teams name to deny his intent was to lionize, pretty well means the numerous schools who use these names are labeling their children's teams with a racist name. That's just laughably wrong.
So the offense argument is a specious one,it's a few offended people trying to use the government into effecting a tyranny of a minority.

As far as where I stand and me being "you just against the idea of the name change for tradition reasons and are looking for any argument against the idea"
If you think freedom of speech is an outmoded "tradition" if you think property rights are an outmoded " tradition"

If you can't SEE this is just extortion and have to basically fall back on the " old fuddy duddy" "these IS modern times" arguments . ( I know it's are)

Then I can see you are the one grasping.
Address why don't you this BS appeal to authority of the almighty dictionary, PEOPLE write dictionaries and everyone has attitudes, even my old buddy John Wiggins the heart surgeon says medical teatment depends on attitudes everyone has them.

I'd urge you to see how political it is and KNOW without the politics it's be a tempest in a teapot.

 

[Sum1]

Actually there are a few misconceptions here, first of all if you really do back the Republican party 99% you only think you're a conservative.

Now skipping to the end ,I'm not grasping at straws, and one of the things through these arguments you might have gleaned unless you only read my posts there are THOUSANDS of athletic teams named for Native Americans across this nation, to single out Snyders team as being racist for his teams name to deny his intent was to lionize, pretty well means the numerous schools who use these names are labeling their children's teams with a racist name. That's just laughably wrong.
So the offense argument is a specious one,it's a few offended people trying to use the government into effecting a tyranny of a minority.

As far as where I stand and me being "you just against the idea of the name change for tradition reasons and are looking for any argument against the idea"
If you think freedom of speech is an outmoded "tradition" if you think property rights are an outmoded " tradition"

If you can't SEE this is just extortion and have to basically fall back on the " old fuddy duddy" "these IS modern times" arguments . ( I know it's are)

Then I can see you are the one grasping.
Address why don't you this BS appeal to authority of the almighty dictionary, PEOPLE write dictionaries and everyone has attitudes, even my old buddy John Wiggins the heart surgeon says medical teatment depends on attitudes everyone has them.

I'd urge you to see how political it is and KNOW without the politics it's be a tempest in a teapot.

Grasping? Laughable. And as far as my political standing...I do lean conservative, but I'm not going to follow any party or politician 100% just because they are wearing the color I lean toward the most. If you want to call me a lefty because of that it won't hurt my feelings. I'll just continue to vote based on my views, however anyone else might see them.

Man...I'm trying to discuss this reasonably with you but you really are putting blinders on to what these "few" people are claiming. You have decided that the term isn't offensive because you don't see it as offensive and are deflecting the issue into something else entirely.

I should have stepped away from the discussion a while back because I knew then, just as I do now, we are only spinning our wheels in the mud and I don't want this discussion to escalate into something it doesn't need to be.

You disagree with me. And I disagree with you. I respect your opinion so rather than bicker I'll leave it at that and look forward to a future discussion. :cheers:

 

[-X-]

I don't think this is an issue where one side can convince another they're wrong.
"Agree to disagree" is almost a requirement in these kinds of discussions once people have stated their opinion several times over.

 

[Thordaddy]

I don't think this is an issue where one side can convince another they're wrong.
"Agree to disagree" is almost a requirement in these kinds of discussions once people have stated their opinion several times over.

I would agree with you there wholeheartedly X, so one side is using the awesome power of OUR government to win the argument,when they TOO should agree to disagree.
I'm thinking this is a polite way of ending this thread or debate? Thanks for letting it go as long as you did.

 

[-X-]

I would agree with you there wholeheartedly X, so one side is using the awesome power of OUR government to win the argument,when they TOO should agree to disagree.
I'm thinking this is a polite way of ending this thread or debate? Thanks for letting it go as long as you did.

Yeah, I wasn't singling you out. It was just a general observation.
And I don't lock threads anymore.