Over My Dead Body

[PrometheusFaulk]

Well, here's my view on that. The term "Redskin" wasn't pejorative at all when it was first introduced into the English language in the 17th century. It became pejorative through pejoration. So what's to stop some group of people from making any other team name pejorative by the same methods? What if Cowboys are all of a sudden offensive because of their murderous reputation? Or the Raiders for obvious reasons. I know that's a pretty big stretch on my part, but is it completely implausible? My issues are twofold. One, this wasn't a big deal a few years ago until it was forced to be a big deal. Two, we really can't empower the government to decide what can and cannot be interpreted as racist, and then unilaterally apply it in order to impose change based on the outrage of a vocal minority. But mine is only one opinion among many. I can't say definitively that anyone is right or wrong. It's all a matter of personal opinion, after all.

Right or wrong, in our society the issue folks from a race of subjugated people take with slurs carry weight while similar complaints about peoples from a ruling class do not.

 

[-X-]

Right or wrong, in our society the issue folks from a race of subjugated people take with slurs carry weight while similar complaints about peoples from a ruling class do not.

I don't disagree with that. The question, I guess, is how loud do the cries have to be before it becomes a government issue?

 

[PrometheusFaulk]

I don't disagree with that. The question, I guess, is how loud do the cries have to be before it becomes a government issue?

That's the old tipping point at work.

 

[Thordaddy]

Discrimination is a pretty big problem. Are you trying to say that it's more important for people to have the right to discriminate if they want to?

Everyone does and always will discriminate,it's a feature of choice , I'm saying free speech is more important because it gives voice to people with BOTH our points of view so yes it's more important.
Using a word in a flattering way which is the Redskins intent is not as you characterize it discrimination ,it's lionization, it's a strawman argument you put forth from the beginning further the right to say things which offend is why the first amendment was crafted, if no one objects to it speech doesn't need protection,the issue is rights not feelings but some don't get that,so basically you have no case except through projecting motives that don't exist and subverting the constitution.
Your whole argument's foundation is quicksand and all you can do to bolster it is sling mud.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

ZI agree that rights are more important than feelings. Good way to put it. I imagine if given the choice between free speech or never having their feelings hurt, every American race would choose freedom of speech.

 

[Rambitious1]

If that's not the point then why did you bother to tell us that you are part Native American? If you're not trying to imply that your heritage combined with your lack of caring about those things means that Native Americans generally don't or shouldn't then why make the statement? If you want to talk property rights that's one thing, but don't backtrack on the first point you made - make it.

It meant what it stated.
I as an American Indian don't care. Period.
Nothing implied.................by me.

 

[Rambition]

yes, i believe the team name will be changed over his dead body. one can only eat so much crow before dying from it.

 

[Rambition]

Watched Jim Rome last night, Al Micheals segment , AM said he asked Dan Snyder about a Redskins name change,that was DS reply "over my dead body".

I've heard the word Nazi's have hired Bruce Willis

word nazi...is that a rush limbaugh term?

 

[Rambition]

Still hilarious! Thanks for posting!

seems like lots of people still think this was for real. i agree with the people that say this was just a PR stunt.

 

[Rambition]

I could choose to be offended by Cracker Barrel, let's force them to change their name.

just as there is no reasonable person that would think that "Redskins" refers to potatoes, there is no reasonable person that would think that "Cracker Barrel" refers to caucasians.

 

[Rambition]

I hope if Snyder is forced to change the name of the Redskins he goes completely away from any Native American theme. I mean, what is the goal of these PC police? Because it seems to me that it's much more likely that he'll just move on from that motif altogether than to try and come up with some PC correct term for Indians. Actually, I hope he gets pissed off and re-names them the Pussywillows and changes their colors to pink and yellow.

again...just as no reasonable person would think that "Cracker Barrel" refers to caucasians, no and reasonable person would think that "Redskins" refers to potatoes, no reasonable person would think that Cracker Jack refers to caucasians. long before there was a cracker barrel, a cracker jack, or a washington redskins football team, there was the pejorative term for native americans "redskins."

 

[Rambition]

Traditionally, but what about in this case? Was it always used as a racial slur? As Carlin says, words only have power if you let them. Cracker and honky aren't offensive because white people aren't offended by them.

speak for yourself.

i didn't think i was offended by "cracker" either, until i was dressing out in the gym after a workout and there were two young hispanic men dressing out at lockers near mine. one of them said to the other--and there was no one else anywhere near but me--"polly wanna cracker??" general hilarity ensued amongst them. i stopped going to that gym. none of which is mean to suggest that this is representative of hispanics in any way. just these two did it, and i found out i was wrong about whether the term could offend me.

 

[Ramrasta]

just as there is no reasonable person that would think that "Redskins" refers to potatoes, there is no reasonable person that would think that "Cracker Barrel" refers to caucasians.

I was obviously not being serious when I posted that... It was a sarcastic comment to denote how questionable the basis of the Redskins argument is.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I won't lie, I find it very interesting that some of the people here defending "free speech" and saying that words are just words, etc etc, we're up in arms when they felt like something they like religion, or a specific example I remember, rich people, was being attacked or criticized. If I recall I was told it was offensive and should stop.

 

[Thordaddy]

word nazi...is that a rush limbaugh term?

Well I imade t up for the post but if Limbaugh wants to use it I'd be happy for him and anyone else who wants to to use it.
Sounds like you want to now us the "Limbaugh /Fox News " intellectual dishonesty games so many on the left use when they run out of ideas and arguments .

Look the people who have no case keep dragging it back to whether it's offensive and what if there was a common use of a word that described one of us we would feal differently, and as long as anyone responds to that it goes to the arena they want. But whether it offends is not and should not be the criteria.
A team named the niggers would change their name because other teams would refuse to play them ,that's freedom,this is an effort to MAKE a word racist and then those who use it racist, it's so akin to the Spanish Inquisition it's remarkable.
One more thing the term racist is objectionable to any person it is aimed at ,the implication towards all here who argue on the sdie of Dan Snyders side is that we are racist ,but it's wrong we aren't and it's a direct offense to say we are with the paltry specious evidence being presented ,it's overt and unmistakable and once iot's dispelled the attackers NEVER apologize for the false claim,they just go on to the next specious charge in their wrong headed righteous indignation,they are intentionally using a pejorative term towards ...not abstract groups but individuals and it needs to stop .
If I tell you I use the term Redskin as a term of honor towards Native American and you don't accept my explanation of MY use ,you need to pull in your horns you are the one going too far.
The people described as having Red Skin, were fierce warriors who fought hard against the advance of not really white men but technology and refused to accept it's inevitability,but fight they did in resourceful admirable albeit misguided fashion , technology was going to win,Dan Snyders team commemorates and honors that bravery, so he says, so I accept and even if I didn't ,I'd still not want my government to get involved ,it's not what we need government for and it usurps the power and rights of us all when it does.

 

[moklerman]

speak for yourself.

i didn't think i was offended by "cracker" either, until i was dressing out in the gym after a workout and there were two young hispanic men dressing out at lockers near mine. one of them said to the other--and there was no one else anywhere near but me--"polly wanna cracker??" general hilarity ensued amongst them. i stopped going to that gym. none of which is mean to suggest that this is representative of hispanics in any way. just these two did it, and i found out i was wrong about whether the term could offend me.

I'm sorry, but you're part of the problem then. You stopped going to that gym because two random guys made some vague racial comment? I hope there's more to that story.

But in general, I find it difficult to be insulted by some racial slur when I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about my race. Because it all boils down to, in this case, someone trying to insult me by calling me white. Cracker, honky...it all means "white"(Caucasian). I think that that would apply to redskin as well. If one is not ashamed of being Indian, then redskin shouldn't be offensive. Just descriptive. Hell, I cook in the sun so I'd call it a compliment to have nice, dark skin.

 

[LesBaker]

I would LOVE to know how many people were opposed to the name around 5 years ago as compared to how many care now.
Because it certainly wasn't any less "offensive" 5 years ago. This is mob mentality in full effect, IMO.

It's de-evolution actually.

The meaning of words can change, Seahawks doesn't mean cigarette anymore, now its a cruel taunt/slur. Redskins hasn't been used as a slur in my lifetime, maybe even longer. I've never done any research on it but I have never heard that word one single time in life other than when it's used for that team and I have traveled all over the USA for over three decades.

Marshall, the founder of the team, was for sure a racist and refused to sign black players. Some people are using that fact to blur the line between what a lousy human he was and the name of the team he owned. It's a poor argument in my opinion and has literally zero validity. Who would name a team after something he despised?

 

[Warner4Prez]

I think the name is BS. I live in North Dakota and have seen it used as a slur in ugly vivid color. That's just my stance. And just one more little tidbit for you: A linguistic analysis of 42 books published between 1875 and 1930 shows that negative contexts in the use of "redskin" were significantly more frequent than positive usage. The use of the word Indian to refer to Native Americans in a similarly selected set of books was more balanced, though negative contexts outnumbered positive contexts.

I'm with Thor in one aspect though, I don't think it's a battle the government needs to be fighting.
I think the people of the Oneida tribe and plenty of other Native tribes and organizations have done a great job in their attempt to get the name changed including billboards and TV spots.

I may have mentioned it before, but a cynical side of me feels that Snyder is just allowing this to get trumped up so that he can change the name. What better way for a billionaire to line his pockets then by forcing hundreds of thousands of fans to shell out for new merchandise?

 

[LesBaker]

42 books published between 1875 and 1930

It's 2014.

Meaning and intent has changed, again I don't like Snyder he is a POS, but his team's name is not a slur in this era. From 1875-1930 maybe it was, but we live in 2014.

Want a Seahawks between your lips? Would you like to discuss the Jokers boner?

Words mean things, sometimes those things change.

 

[Ramhusker]

I stopped by the Redskins camp in Richmond this week. I didn't notice anybody's panties in a wad just yet.