New Defense - Ongoing season discussion

[Stl2La]

View: https://x.com/NextGenStats/status/1838647064487694662

 

[0311rams]

They still ranked as bad , I am sure . Since those rankings reflect the overall play of the defense not one single , specific play. Overall , they are horrible. Part of it , is lack of talent and part of it is our rookie DC. One win and one solid 4th quarter doesn't change my opinion about this defense and the stats don't lie .

The stats and the eye test, doesn't lie. We have to play better, sooner! Go rams.

 

[bubbaramfan]

It's a work in progress. These guys are young, inexperienced and haven't played much together. Gonna take a few more games to develope some continuity. I love the energy and effort. Sacks are gonna start coming in bunches.....

 

[Allen2McVay]

Bobby Evans , trading EJ for a bag of chips , extending noteboom and paying him all that money , the signing of Jonah Jackson is also proving to be a bad one . Dude was always hurt on detroit and can't run block . Tre white signing is also proving to be a bad one. He is totally washed up. This FO made tons of mistakes . They are not perfect , nobody is . I support them but I don't have to agree with every decision the make .

We agree that the Rams' decision-making has not been perfect, and that fans don't need to agree with every move. However, we may be on different ends of the spectrum overall.

I was merely pushing-back on the thought that the Rams' recent success prevents challenging any decisions.

As to the moves you mentioned above, I agree with some of your points ... hated the Ernest Jones trade and posted such ... but not all; and think it's too early to evaluate free agent signings made six months ago.

I have been reading your posts since you joined a few moths ago ... welcome to the Forum ... but many of your posts have reflected an overall negativity that I do not share.

Overall, I think the Rams' decision-makers and leadership have done a great job since McVay came-on-board in 2017. Almost eight years of exciting football and, mostly, winning football. Outside of the Chiefs, I think the Rams have been the most successful, most entertaining team to follow since 2017.

Personally, I think it's a great time to be a Rams' fan, and I feel very fortunate.

 

[Brasilrams]

We agree that the Rams' decision-making has not been perfect, and that fans don't need to agree with every move. However, we may be on different ends of the spectrum overall.

I was merely pushing-back on the thought that the Rams' recent success prevents challenging any decisions.

As to the moves you mentioned above, I agree with some of your points ... hated the Ernest Jones trade and posted such ... but not all; and think it's too early to evaluate free agent signings made six months ago.

I have been reading your posts since you joined a few moths ago ... welcome to the Forum ... but many of your posts have reflected an overall negativity that I do not share.

Overall, I think the Rams' decision-makers and leadership have done a great job since McVay came-on-board in 2017. Almost eight years of exciting football and, mostly, winning football. Outside of the Chiefs, I think the Rams have been the most successful, most entertaining team to follow since 2017.

Personally, I think it's a great time to be a Rams' fan, and I feel very fortunate.

Thanks bro. Well , I admit I’ve been really critical of the front office lately, especially with how they’ve put together this defense and some of the offseason moves for the past 3 years . I don't like the idea of pairing a rookie defensive coordinator with a bunch of rookies. If you're going to have the cheapest defense in the league, filled with rookies and second-year players, you at least need a veteran DC—not someone learning on the job.

I’ll always be grateful for the Stafford trade, OBJ, and Von Miller—those moves, plus AD, brought us a Super Bowl. But since then, we haven't been good. While the drafting overall has been solid, there have been too many mistakes regarding the roster, especially in the offseason, and the record shows it. Since the Super Bowl, we're 16-21.

I'll admit again, I'm frustrated because I don't see how this defense improves enough to get us to the playoffs, let alone make a run. I really hope I’m wrong.

 

[Merlin]

I'll admit again, I'm frustrated because I don't see how this defense improves enough to get us to the playoffs, let alone make a run. I really hope I’m wrong.

Good chance you'll be wrong. This year's roster is stronger than last years. Last year's roster played over their heads, but I think the only way this team doesn't make the playoffs is if injuries continue to plague them.

As things stand right now we have two winnable games before the bye. After the bye the Rams will be healthier and it should improve from there. So we need to get one win from these two games to be poised for a run for the wildcard.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Bobby Evans , trading EJ for a bag of chips , extending noteboom and paying him all that money , the signing of Jonah Jackson is also proving to be a bad one . Dude was always hurt on detroit and can't run block . Tre white signing is also proving to be a bad one. He is totally washed up. This FO made tons of mistakes . They are not perfect , nobody is . I support them but I don't have to agree with every decision the make .

Jackson is a good run blocker. It’s a big reason he was brought in. I agree sbout the injury.

White is not necessarily washed. That’s a hasty take. He’s coming off a major injury. Give him time.

 

[Merlin]

White is not necessarily washed. That’s a hasty take. He’s coming off a major injury. Give him time.

Yeah I admit I am very concerned about White. But I agree giving him time is the way to go because if they can get him back to even 85% of his best form we're in good shape.

And worst case when Williams gets back we will have a solution for him. Nice thing here is Durant seems to be rounding into form as a solid corner. So as our front gels as a unit with a nasty rush, our secondary still has a chance to sort shit out and start playing well.

 

[Brasilrams]

Jackson is a good run blocker. It’s a big reason he was brought in. I agree sbout the injury.

White is not necessarily washed. That’s a hasty take. He’s coming off a major injury. Give him time.

I will give some more time to Tre , he is 29 , still young . So , let's see . But it is not looking good so far . About Jonah , he is a good PASS blocker . Check his ratings for the past 3 years in run blocking and you will see , not good .

 

[fanotodd]

What did he do when the game was on the line?

.

And WHY did he not have run game?
It looked good to me, until they really needed it.
…and he still couldn’t get it done vs the “worst defense.”
Hmm

 

[Brasilrams]

Good chance you'll be wrong. This year's roster is stronger than last years. Last year's roster played over their heads, but I think the only way this team doesn't make the playoffs is if injuries continue to plague them.

As things stand right now we have two winnable games before the bye. After the bye the Rams will be healthier and it should improve from there. So we need to get one win from these two games to be poised for a run for the wildcard.

This defense roster is stronger than last year ? I will 100 % disagree here . Last year we had AD + EJ , this year we have BB3 + Rozeboom . I think our offense , specially when healthy , can score 35 ppg . So , the defense can actually be mediocre and that is fine . The problem is that right now , they are WAY below mediocre and our offense is not healthy ( so they are not scoring 35 like they can ) . Like I said , I don't like having a young defense with tons of rookies , paired with a rookie DC that is learning on the job. That is a bad combination imo. But maybe this defense can prove me wrong and can at least be serviceable , like rank 15ish instead of 32nd.

 

[Merlin]

This defense roster is stronger than last year ? I will 100 % disagree here . Last year we had AD + EJ , this year we have BB3 + Rozeboom . I think our offense , specially when healthy , can score 35 ppg . So , the defense can actually be mediocre and that is fine . The problem is that right now , they are below mediocre and our offense is not healthy ( so they are not scoring 35 like they can ) . Like I said , I don't like having a young defense with tons of rookies paired with a rookie DC that is learning on the job. That is a bad combintation imo. But maybe this defense can prove me wrong and can at least be serviceable , like rank 15ish instead of 32.

Starting on the DL... Last season we had AD, Turner, and the funky bunch. Young was not even close to the guy he is this season. He has improved by leaps and bounds judging from that SF game. Night and day. Verse is enormously better than anything we had last season. Our edge rush on both sides is far better than it was last season, which compensates for AD being out in terms of talent. And Fiske is getting better game by game. Also Davis looked excellent on some key downs for us so might be emerging as the anchor we need in the middle, which we did not have last year.

ILB yes Rozeboom & Reeder are a dropoff from Jones. But last season we played a lot of Jones plus nickle if memory serves. Seems like we do more base under Shula. Either way though Jones has never been a healthy player, that knee is suspect as well, and his range is not anywhere near what you want in that role. He's a stud when he gets there yes. But we need range in this defense. We need speed. So in projecting I think we will be better off once we get those roles flipped to two guys on the depth chart. At the very least while we will be giving up physicality we will gain range. So this is a dip but hopefully a minor one and ILB plain and simple is not the most important role in a modern defense either.

Secondary has way more talent than last year. Safety is night and day. We have depth and options, and that's even with Lake filling the slot role. Corner Durant is better this year than anyone we had last season. Williams is due to return and is better than anyone we had last year. And White still might be able to regain his form, we'll see. If so we are far better off. If not we are still significantly better off at our top two corner spots and safety across the board.

We miss AD's leadership. No doubt about it. But don't sleep on the increase of talent this defense has gotten. Just a matter of getting it all on one sheet of music. And we also have a rook DC learning on the job.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I will give some more time to Tre , he is 29 , still young . So , let's see . But it is not looking good so far . About Jonah , he is a good PASS blocker . Check his ratings for the past 3 years in run blocking and you will see , not good .

Off-season talk was that they loved Jonah Jackson’s ability to pull and lay hits in space. Maybe his run blocking lacks up front. But I’ve seen him on the pull and he lays some wood.

 

[Merlin]

Off-season talk was that they loved Jonah Jackson’s ability to pull and lay hits in space. Maybe his run blocking lacks up front. But I’ve seen him on the pull and he lays some wood.

Yeah he is nasty on the move.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVa_n0_3XAs&ab_channel=UnderratedSportsVids

 

[Brasilrams]

Starting on the DL... Last season we had AD, Turner, and the funky bunch. Young was not even close to the guy he is this season. He has improved by leaps and bounds judging from that SF game. Night and day. Verse is enormously better than anything we had last season. Our edge rush on both sides is far better than it was last season, which compensates for AD being out in terms of talent. And Fiske is getting better game by game. Also Davis looked excellent on some key downs for us so might be emerging as the anchor we need in the middle, which we did not have last year.

ILB yes Rozeboom & Reeder are a dropoff from Jones. But last season we played a lot of Jones plus nickle if memory serves. Seems like we do more base under Shula. Either way though Jones has never been a healthy player, that knee is suspect as well, and his range is not anywhere near what you want in that role. He's a stud when he gets there yes. But we need range in this defense. We need speed. So in projecting I think we will be better off once we get those roles flipped to two guys on the depth chart. At the very least while we will be giving up physicality we will gain range. So this is a dip but hopefully a minor one and ILB plain and simple is not the most important role in a modern defense either.

Secondary has way more talent than last year. Safety is night and day. We have depth and options, and that's even with Lake filling the slot role. Corner Durant is better this year than anyone we had last season. Williams is due to return and is better than anyone we had last year. And White still might be able to regain his form, we'll see. If so we are far better off. If not we are still significantly better off at our top two corner spots and safety across the board.

We miss AD's leadership. No doubt about it. But don't sleep on the increase of talent this defense has gotten. Just a matter of getting it all on one sheet of music. And we also have a rook DC learning on the job.

I will agree that the secondary on PAPER is better than last year . But ILB and front 4 , no . Young flashed the last game but he also flashed last year . It is the same player. Agree that Verse is better than anything we had last year . Turner is the same too . But not having AD is like losing your super power. This front 4 ( or front 7 ) will never be the same without him . Losing AD and EJ , imo , makes this defense MUCH worse talent wise , it doesn't matter that we added Verse and the secondary ( on paper ) is better than last year. And I say on paper because yes , Tre is supposed to be better than Kendricks and Curl is supposed to be better than Fuller but that is not what I am seeing on the field , so far.

But if we go by your logic , that this defense now has more talent than last year , then, the fact that we rank 30-32 in every metric just means that shula is doing a TERRIBLE job.

 

[majrleaged]

This defense roster is stronger than last year ? I will 100 % disagree here . Last year we had AD + EJ , this year we have BB3 + Rozeboom . I think our offense , specially when healthy , can score 35 ppg . So , the defense can actually be mediocre and that is fine . The problem is that right now , they are WAY below mediocre and our offense is not healthy ( so they are not scoring 35 like they can ) . Like I said , I don't like having a young defense with tons of rookies , paired with a rookie DC that is learning on the job. That is a bad combination imo. But maybe this defense can prove me wrong and can at least be serviceable , like rank 15ish instead of 32nd.

We will see. 1st impressions arent always correct. To even think that a D this young was going to come out of the gate like they will finish is very short sited.

 

[Merlin]

I will agree that the secondary on PAPER is better than last year . But ILB and front 4 , no . Young flashed the last game but he also flashed last year . It is the same player. Agree that Verse is better than anything we had last year . Turner is the same too . But not having AD is like losing your super power. This front 4 ( or front 7 ) will never be the same without him . Losing AD and EJ , imo , makes this defense MUCH worse talent wise , it doesn't matter that we added Verse and the secondary ( on paper ) is better than last year. And I say on paper because yes , Tre is supposed to be better than Kendricks and Curl is supposed to be better than Fuller but that is not what I am seeing on the field , so far.

But if we go by your logic , that this defense now has more talent than last year , then, the fact that we rank 30-32 in every metric just means that shula is doing a TERRIBLE job.

You can go by whatever logic you want. Doesn't bother me at all. I just think you're a bit too invested in this defense being poor. Obviously the Rams are not going to be able to replace a HoF 3T. But what they have done is gotten a ton better at both edges and added to the secondary. Jones being traded moves that bar back a bit but not all that much.

By looking a bit deeper at things you can see what the Rams' design is. They prioritized having a duo of interior rushers (Fiske & Turner) for passing downs with upgraded Edge positions. And they hit on both those picks for that role. We have one of the better 4 man rushes in this league three games into the season, with these young players still trying to settle in.

I think Fiske, Turner, and Verse will all be better in December than they are now on the rush. So what does that look like. Pretty fucking nasty is a possibility. There is a good chance that by season's end we will have a better 4 man rush than what we had with AD & Turner pairing, because our Edges are potentially very good, and they were pedestrian as fuck last year.

The rush defense was middle of the pack last year. We have dipped there. What does it look like in December? No idea. But I think the key for how far we go is going to be pass defense, i.e. performance of the secondary. If they get sorted and the offense gets healthy we are a contender. Not just a wildcard threat.

 

[DzRams]

Thanks bro. Well , I admit I’ve been really critical of the front office lately, especially with how they’ve put together this defense and some of the offseason moves for the past 3 years . I don't like the idea of pairing a rookie defensive coordinator with a bunch of rookies. If you're going to have the cheapest defense in the league, filled with rookies and second-year players, you at least need a veteran DC—not someone learning on the job.

I’ll always be grateful for the Stafford trade, OBJ, and Von Miller—those moves, plus AD, brought us a Super Bowl. But since then, we haven't been good. While the drafting overall has been solid, there have been too many mistakes regarding the roster, especially in the offseason, and the record shows it. Since the Super Bowl, we're 16-21.

I'll admit again, I'm frustrated because I don't see how this defense improves enough to get us to the playoffs, let alone make a run. I really hope I’m wrong.

You're right that we are 16-21 since the SB win but I'm skeptical that that is mostly due to mistakes made.

The biggest factor IMO is an unprecedented amount of injuries in 2022 and this year. The other huge factor for a subpar defense this year is AD's retirement. Between injuries and the loss of AD, other would be "mistakes" pail in comparison as far as impact.

 

[Kupped]

I will agree that the secondary on PAPER is better than last year . But ILB and front 4 , no . Young flashed the last game but he also flashed last year . It is the same player. Agree that Verse is better than anything we had last year . Turner is the same too . But not having AD is like losing your super power. This front 4 ( or front 7 ) will never be the same without him . Losing AD and EJ , imo , makes this defense MUCH worse talent wise , it doesn't matter that we added Verse and the secondary ( on paper ) is better than last year. And I say on paper because yes , Tre is supposed to be better than Kendricks and Curl is supposed to be better than Fuller but that is not what I am seeing on the field , so far.

But if we go by your logic , that this defense now has more talent than last year , then, the fact that we rank 30-32 in every metric just means that shula is doing a TERRIBLE job.

Hmm...

Well.. one thing I'll disagree on is that Young is the same guy as last year. He's already shown more variety in his moves and more understanding in how to deploy them. Also just looks very comfortable and knows where he's supposed to be. I tried to not expect too much out of him this year, because I thought he was kind of a one-note pass rusher last year. I think I was wrong.
Turner is the same ass-kicker.. with another year of growth.
Fiske, of course, ain't Donald.. but he's not a scrub and is very athletic and hustles like a mofo.
Verse is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Hoecht, who's actually been a nice sub-player.
Here's how I think it maths out better than you suggest... Two plus rookies who are even better in year 2. One addition at edge who is significantly better than anything they had last year.. and who looks to possibly be a top-tier guy.

I think the UNIT is on its way to being better than it was last year. And we haven't even seen Jackson yet.

Secondary...woof... I just don't know what to say yet other than it's not good right now. There's an argument that Kendrick was better than White is *right now*... and I feel like Akhello last year was better than what we're seeing from Durant this year. The difference between the secondary and front four, to me... is that there's reason to believe that front four will be absolutely kicking ass on passing downs by the end of the year. Can't say the same about the secondary. I *hope* that Darious Williams comes back and stays healthy.. because he'll be a huge upgrade over White or Durant.. Maybe JJ coming back will stabilize some.. but they don't have the upside the front four does.

The ILBs are average to below average.. but Reeder has been absolutely functional. Rozeboom is appreciably weaker. Maybe time to see what Hummel can do.

 

[Brasilrams]

You can go by whatever logic you want. Doesn't bother me at all. I just think you're a bit too invested in this defense being poor. Obviously the Rams are not going to be able to replace a HoF 3T. But what they have done is gotten a ton better at both edges and added to the secondary. Jones being traded moves that bar back a bit but not all that much.

By looking a bit deeper at things you can see what the Rams' design is. They prioritized having a duo of interior rushers (Fiske & Turner) for passing downs with upgraded Edge positions. And they hit on both those picks for that role. We have one of the better 4 man rushes in this league three games into the season, with these young players still trying to settle in.

I think Fiske, Turner, and Verse will all be better in December than they are now on the rush. So what does that look like. Pretty fucking nasty is a possibility. There is a good chance that by season's end we will have a better 4 man rush than what we had with AD & Turner pairing, because our Edges are potentially very good, and they were pedestrian as fuck last year.

The rush defense was middle of the pack last year. We have dipped there. What does it look like in December? No idea. But I think the key for how far we go is going to be pass defense, i.e. performance of the secondary. If they get sorted and the offense gets healthy we are a contender. Not just a wildcard threat.

It is not my logic. It is your logic. You are saying this D is more talented than last year's D which I disagree . So , if we have more talent now and we play WORSE ( much worse ) it means it is scheme . So it is the DC's fault . Maybe hiring Shula was a mistake ? Too early to tell and I will give him one full season before asking for his head but so far , he is not doing well.