- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 37,487
If that's true I'd probably take him in round 5. Of course the Rams won't. But I like the idea of a first contract backup who is also developing like the Pats have done.
Matt Stafford Traded to Rams
- Thread starter Stl2La
- Start date
-
To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.
- Status
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2013
- Messages
- 4,754
That means we've mortgaged the future three times:
Two firsts for Goff instead of staying put and then drafting Mahomes
Two firsts for Ramsey instead of drafting two cheap players
Two firsts for Stafford instead of ?
We don't know yet, but I'm sure that we can find two elite players we could have had in place of Ramsey, just like we could have had Patrick Mahomes and another player instead of Goff.
With the benefit of hindsight, the worst of these (by far) is taking Goff instead of Mahomes and another player.
But that trade also was a part of moves that ultimately made us better. So if this trade makes us better we should all just be happy with that. If it makes us worse I'll be first in line saying "HUGE mistake".
Trading first round picks is a model the Rams have made work, so it (should be) hard to argue right now. For those that do want to argue, why stop at the Stafford trade being a potential mistake when we have the original Goff trade, instead of keeping the first round pick and drafting Mahomes or Watson as the ultimate mistake?
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 23,150
Oh absolutely.
As long as Stafford is under center, the window is open.
Heck, that’s what he came here for also.
Psycho_X
Legend
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,234
If you get bummed about it just think that the Bears could have taken Mahomes or Watson without trading anything at all but instead traded two 3rds and a 4th to simply move from #3 overall to #2 overall with the Whiners to draft Trubisky.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 23,150
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2013
- Messages
- 8,368
- Name
- Erik
Yeah, Mahomes was 2017, Goff 2016.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2013
- Messages
- 4,754
If we started Keenum that whole year and never drafted Goff, we could have been in position to draft Mahomes the following year.
This is very similar to what some people are upset about with the Stafford trade - the loss of future first round picks and "what could be" - which is obviously fine - just wanted to point out that however big of a failure this trade ends up being, probably won't be worse than trading for Goff instead of being in position to draft Mahomes a year later (from a future draft pick perspective, which seems to be what bother most people about the Stafford trade).
The counter argument (and the reason why trading first round picks doesn't bother me) is that:
A. we may not have drafted Mahomes, we may have still drafted Corey Davis who hasn't been very productive for a top 5 pick
B. the draft is a crapshoot and there's no guarantee that Mahomes is the player he is with us
It's all ifs - which again is why I'm totally fine trading away first round picks.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2013
- Messages
- 4,754
Right, my comment was part of a bigger explanation for why I don't think the two firsts for Stafford are that big of a deal.
Most people seem to be citing the two firsts as the big issue with the trade - we also traded two firsts for the right to draft Goff, and two firsts for Ramsey.
In Ramsey's case, I don't feel like looking but I'm quite sure we could have had two great players that combined, would be more valuable than Ramsey himself. I think one would have been Justin Jefferson who was arguably a top 5 WR this past season.
For the Goff example, it's a projection that without trading for Goff we still would have had a top 10 pick (we sent the Titans pick 5) and we could have had Mahomes.
So for the people saying we mortgaged the future for Stafford and that it'll be a mistake - the same argument can be made against trading for and drafting Goff. We did not win a Super Bowl with Goff while the Chiefs did win one with Mahomes.
Fast forward three years and let's say that the Rams haven't won a Super Bowl and Stafford retires - people will say that it was a mistake and we shouldn't have traded for Stafford. I can right now say the same about having traded up to take Goff.
But I don't really think that - because who knows if we draft Mahomes and if he's the same player. Just like who knows if the Rams would have been worse without Stafford in this hypothetical three year time jump. But for people that do say it was a mistake and we should have kept Goff, I can just as easily say that we shouldn't have traded up for Goff and then drafted Mahomes or Watson the next year.
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 37,487
What is interesting about 2018 is around the time of that Chicago game I looked at our team and "knew" they weren't good enough. But then they added a vet RB who energized the backfield and boom. They were good again, well, until that run game got stuffed by New England.
If I've learned anything over the years more than once it's that the run game is far more important than most realize. This move for Stafford was in large part to break that run dependence, where maybe we can have some offense in games where the run isn't there.
This is when the owner needs to blow it all up and start over. Seriously. You're all fired get the fuck out.
Psycho_X
Legend
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,234
Jim Caldwell says Rams will love Stafford.
deadspin.com
What can the Rams expect with Matt Stafford?
If you ask his former Lions coach and QB guru Jim Caldwell — the sky’s the limit. And his own past history suggests he is right.
When asked by Deadspin to share his thoughts on Stafford, Caldwell praised Stafford’s “mental and physical toughness,” “intellectual prowess,” and described Stafford’s character and leadership as much as his abilities.
“Matthew is accountable in every way and displays extreme ownership, accepting responsibility for his mistakes and deflects credit to his teammates and coaches in victory. He has an extremely strong arm, underestimated mobility and he can deliver the ball accurately with velocity or touch from various platforms and angles,” said Caldwell.
No one would know better of what Stafford is capable of than Caldwell, as Stafford thrived with him, as part of a coaching resume of QB success on three different teams.
If you want to predict Stafford’s future with Rams head coach Sean McVay, the best evidence is in the past with Caldwell.
The first thing Caldwell helped Stafford do is was the same thing helped a young Peyton Manning, do, serving as his QB coach – cut down on the interceptions. In between, as Ravens Offensive Coordinator Caldwell called all the plays on Joe Flacco’s 2002 magical Super Bowl run (11 TD/0 INT).
Matt Stafford Record under Head Coaches
29-51 Jim Schwartz (2009-2013)
36-28 Jim Caldwell (2014-2017)
14-25-1 Matt Patricia/Bevell (2018-2020)
That’s significant, and not a little bit.
Coaching Matters
After the Lions went 11-21 from 2012-2013, Stafford’s stretches of greatness were also coupled with critiques of his fundamentals, footwork, arm motion, over-reliance on Lions Hall-of-Famer Calvin Johnson, and penchant to force throws into coverage for interceptions. Back then, some were asking “what to do when your star hits a wall?” Others have argued if he were Black, he might be treated more like Jameis Winston or Vince Young.
Under Caldwell, Stafford’s passer rating jumped from 83.1 in his first five seasons under Jim Schwartz to 93.7, and notably improved to 99.1 in Caldwell’s final 2.5 seasons after an adjustment period, and a new offensive coordinator Caldwell had previously mentored (Jim Bob Cooter).
These were meaningful ratings punctuated by 20 game-winning drives, a stat Stafford led the NFL in three of those four seasons. Under Caldwell, Stafford was 22-15 in close one-score games, but 20-33-1 without Caldwell. “He’s a smart offensive coach,” Stafford told the Detroit Free Press in 2017. “He puts our team in the right situations to succeed, and that, in turn, helps me out.”
Caldwell employed more quick throws, no huddles, and instead of forcing throws to Calvin Johnson amidst double/triple coverage, he used Stafford in more of a spread offense with multiple wide receivers where he was most comfortable. Golden Taint would immediately blossom into a Pro Bowler in 2014, and post his only three 1,000-yard seasons. Despite Johnson’s surprise retirement after the 2015 season, Stafford’s growth continued as Marvin Jones would join Taint as a 1,000-yard partner in 2017.
Pro Football Focus predicted the Lions would win four games in 2016 and six games in 2017. By any objective measure based on roster talent, the Caldwell/Stafford 9-win teams in both 2016 and 2017 were minor miracles, masking monster holes which included an invisible pass rush, back-up running backs as starters (Ameer Abdullah/Theo Riddick/Zach Zenner), and a lack of Pro Bowl playmakers, a staple of playoff teams.
Well, those holes have just been repaired. How will Stafford adapt to a new team?
“Matthew is extremely bright and he can adapt to any system or style of offense,” says Caldwell. “He has demonstrated [that] while in Detroit under multiple offensive coordinators and head coaches.
“He will be able to do whatever Coach McVay requires. But Matthew is very self-aware and not shy about expressing the various concepts that fit his eye or accentuates his skill set. They will love him in L.A.”
This is not undue biased praise. A closer look at the Caldwell/Stafford Lions years supports his assessment.
The Rams need not tweak too much. Stafford can be a great successful QB under McVay because he already was under Caldwell with far less surrounding talent — except in glimpses.
Defense Matters
Stafford is leaving the Lions’ last-place defense to join last year’s No. 1 defense anchored by superstars Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey. The only year Stafford played with a top defense was Caldwell’s first year in 2014 when the Lions went 11-5 with a No. 3 ranked defense up from No. 15 the previous year.
That Lions defense was anchored by the closest thing to Donald in 2014 – Ndamukong Suh. But the Lions failed to re-sign Suh the following year, and haven’t had a pass rush since. Stafford has been having to gun sling the Lions to victory since. No more.
“Caldwell was the answer,” tweeted Ndamukong Suh in October, “and didn’t get the ample opportunity to fully put his fingerprints on the team”.
No, he didn’t. But McVay will.
The Rams adding a 2017-level Stafford to his 2014 Lions defense can be a Super Bowl recipe.
Rushing Yards Matter
The Rams will have the type of support for Stafford he has never had in his Lions career — a rushing attack. The Rams rush-by-committee very quietly gained over 2,000 yards last year, a mark the Lions haven’t even sniffed since Barry Sanders.
Running back was the Lions’ greatest need in the 2017 draft, but GM Bob Quinn chose Florida linebacker Jarrad Davis and Florida corner Teez Tabor in the first two rounds over Dalvin Cook and Alvin Kamara — the next two running backs taken after those picks. Davis was no longer a regular starter in 2020, and Tabor is out of the NFL.
Instead of drafting better, Bob Quinn fired Caldwell despite mass support from his players.
GM Support Matters
Quinn now famously said “9 wins are not enough” before hiring his buddy Matt Patricia. Under Patricia the Lions also only managed nine wins – except it took him two years.
The answer should be obvious. When a coach with 6-win talent wins nine games, you give them more talent to reach the Super Bowl — a place Caldwell visited as Head Coach, Asst. Head Coach, and Offensive Coordinator on three prior occasions.
If Quinn’s hiring of Patricia was classic NFL nepotism, Caldwell being snubbed by the rest of the NFL for four hiring cycles is classic NFL racism. Caldwell’s success with Peyton Manning, Flacco, and Stafford trebles the kind of success that stamps white QB guru coaches with indelible “genius” labels by the media, and lifetime employment in the league.
In contrast, the Rams’ front office is willing to go all-in and trade for playmakers, as they did in acquiring Jalen Ramsey, and trading two first-round picks to the Lions for Stafford, a likely win-win for both teams.
Leadership Matters
Yesterday, a Detroit Free Press article was titled: “Matthew Stafford Never Showed His Desire for Greatness”.
Jim Caldwell disagrees.
“Matthew is a great leader with an insatiable desire to win,” says Caldwell (preceding the article). “Insatiable” is a strong word. Caldwell added: “The Rams are getting a great father, husband and extraordinarily unselfish teammate who serves the community in which he lives and works.”
That leadership was on display in 2020, as Stafford became the highest-profile white player to take a knee in solidarity with his Black teammates during multiple games. Stafford wrote an article in The Players’ Tribune called: “We Can’t Just Stick to Football”.
“Police brutality, white privilege, racism — it’s all real.” wrote Stafford. “It’s time we stop pretending, or defending, or just closing our eyes to what’s right in front of us. And it’s not like this is just our history. This is right now.
“These are not political problems. These are human problems. It should not be seen as a political statement to discuss this stuff honestly.”
Either way, Stafford is displaying what leadership looks like, and despite “media-distraction” lies about Colin Kaepernick supposedly dividing the locker room, his own 49ers teammates voted him a leadership award as the best teammate in 2016. Has the media considered Jared Goff standing while surrounded by his Black Rams teammates kneeling to be more divisive to his team?
Upon arrival, Caldwell said Stafford had the skills to be great, and by 2016 Stafford was already being discussed as an MVP candidate. Back then Caldwell said Peyton Manning “will be certainly donning a Hall of Fame jacket, and another one who’s well on his way.” The other one was Stafford.
Should the Rams head back to the Super Bowl, Sean McVay will not have to adjust much except to let Stafford be the quarterback he already was. And he might want to start by giving Jim Caldwell a call.
Who knows, if they become friends, an NFL team might even hire him.
Jim Caldwell talking to us about Matt Stafford is the perfect time for us to talk about Jim Caldwell
What can the Rams expect with Matt Stafford?
deadspin.com
What can the Rams expect with Matt Stafford?
If you ask his former Lions coach and QB guru Jim Caldwell — the sky’s the limit. And his own past history suggests he is right.
When asked by Deadspin to share his thoughts on Stafford, Caldwell praised Stafford’s “mental and physical toughness,” “intellectual prowess,” and described Stafford’s character and leadership as much as his abilities.
“Matthew is accountable in every way and displays extreme ownership, accepting responsibility for his mistakes and deflects credit to his teammates and coaches in victory. He has an extremely strong arm, underestimated mobility and he can deliver the ball accurately with velocity or touch from various platforms and angles,” said Caldwell.
No one would know better of what Stafford is capable of than Caldwell, as Stafford thrived with him, as part of a coaching resume of QB success on three different teams.
If you want to predict Stafford’s future with Rams head coach Sean McVay, the best evidence is in the past with Caldwell.
The first thing Caldwell helped Stafford do is was the same thing helped a young Peyton Manning, do, serving as his QB coach – cut down on the interceptions. In between, as Ravens Offensive Coordinator Caldwell called all the plays on Joe Flacco’s 2002 magical Super Bowl run (11 TD/0 INT).
Matt Stafford Record under Head Coaches
29-51 Jim Schwartz (2009-2013)
36-28 Jim Caldwell (2014-2017)
14-25-1 Matt Patricia/Bevell (2018-2020)
That’s significant, and not a little bit.
Coaching Matters
After the Lions went 11-21 from 2012-2013, Stafford’s stretches of greatness were also coupled with critiques of his fundamentals, footwork, arm motion, over-reliance on Lions Hall-of-Famer Calvin Johnson, and penchant to force throws into coverage for interceptions. Back then, some were asking “what to do when your star hits a wall?” Others have argued if he were Black, he might be treated more like Jameis Winston or Vince Young.
Under Caldwell, Stafford’s passer rating jumped from 83.1 in his first five seasons under Jim Schwartz to 93.7, and notably improved to 99.1 in Caldwell’s final 2.5 seasons after an adjustment period, and a new offensive coordinator Caldwell had previously mentored (Jim Bob Cooter).
These were meaningful ratings punctuated by 20 game-winning drives, a stat Stafford led the NFL in three of those four seasons. Under Caldwell, Stafford was 22-15 in close one-score games, but 20-33-1 without Caldwell. “He’s a smart offensive coach,” Stafford told the Detroit Free Press in 2017. “He puts our team in the right situations to succeed, and that, in turn, helps me out.”
Caldwell employed more quick throws, no huddles, and instead of forcing throws to Calvin Johnson amidst double/triple coverage, he used Stafford in more of a spread offense with multiple wide receivers where he was most comfortable. Golden Taint would immediately blossom into a Pro Bowler in 2014, and post his only three 1,000-yard seasons. Despite Johnson’s surprise retirement after the 2015 season, Stafford’s growth continued as Marvin Jones would join Taint as a 1,000-yard partner in 2017.
Pro Football Focus predicted the Lions would win four games in 2016 and six games in 2017. By any objective measure based on roster talent, the Caldwell/Stafford 9-win teams in both 2016 and 2017 were minor miracles, masking monster holes which included an invisible pass rush, back-up running backs as starters (Ameer Abdullah/Theo Riddick/Zach Zenner), and a lack of Pro Bowl playmakers, a staple of playoff teams.
Well, those holes have just been repaired. How will Stafford adapt to a new team?
“Matthew is extremely bright and he can adapt to any system or style of offense,” says Caldwell. “He has demonstrated [that] while in Detroit under multiple offensive coordinators and head coaches.
“He will be able to do whatever Coach McVay requires. But Matthew is very self-aware and not shy about expressing the various concepts that fit his eye or accentuates his skill set. They will love him in L.A.”
This is not undue biased praise. A closer look at the Caldwell/Stafford Lions years supports his assessment.
The Rams need not tweak too much. Stafford can be a great successful QB under McVay because he already was under Caldwell with far less surrounding talent — except in glimpses.
Defense Matters
Stafford is leaving the Lions’ last-place defense to join last year’s No. 1 defense anchored by superstars Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey. The only year Stafford played with a top defense was Caldwell’s first year in 2014 when the Lions went 11-5 with a No. 3 ranked defense up from No. 15 the previous year.
That Lions defense was anchored by the closest thing to Donald in 2014 – Ndamukong Suh. But the Lions failed to re-sign Suh the following year, and haven’t had a pass rush since. Stafford has been having to gun sling the Lions to victory since. No more.
“Caldwell was the answer,” tweeted Ndamukong Suh in October, “and didn’t get the ample opportunity to fully put his fingerprints on the team”.
No, he didn’t. But McVay will.
The Rams adding a 2017-level Stafford to his 2014 Lions defense can be a Super Bowl recipe.
Rushing Yards Matter
The Rams will have the type of support for Stafford he has never had in his Lions career — a rushing attack. The Rams rush-by-committee very quietly gained over 2,000 yards last year, a mark the Lions haven’t even sniffed since Barry Sanders.
Running back was the Lions’ greatest need in the 2017 draft, but GM Bob Quinn chose Florida linebacker Jarrad Davis and Florida corner Teez Tabor in the first two rounds over Dalvin Cook and Alvin Kamara — the next two running backs taken after those picks. Davis was no longer a regular starter in 2020, and Tabor is out of the NFL.
Instead of drafting better, Bob Quinn fired Caldwell despite mass support from his players.
GM Support Matters
Quinn now famously said “9 wins are not enough” before hiring his buddy Matt Patricia. Under Patricia the Lions also only managed nine wins – except it took him two years.
The answer should be obvious. When a coach with 6-win talent wins nine games, you give them more talent to reach the Super Bowl — a place Caldwell visited as Head Coach, Asst. Head Coach, and Offensive Coordinator on three prior occasions.
If Quinn’s hiring of Patricia was classic NFL nepotism, Caldwell being snubbed by the rest of the NFL for four hiring cycles is classic NFL racism. Caldwell’s success with Peyton Manning, Flacco, and Stafford trebles the kind of success that stamps white QB guru coaches with indelible “genius” labels by the media, and lifetime employment in the league.
In contrast, the Rams’ front office is willing to go all-in and trade for playmakers, as they did in acquiring Jalen Ramsey, and trading two first-round picks to the Lions for Stafford, a likely win-win for both teams.
Leadership Matters
Yesterday, a Detroit Free Press article was titled: “Matthew Stafford Never Showed His Desire for Greatness”.
Jim Caldwell disagrees.
“Matthew is a great leader with an insatiable desire to win,” says Caldwell (preceding the article). “Insatiable” is a strong word. Caldwell added: “The Rams are getting a great father, husband and extraordinarily unselfish teammate who serves the community in which he lives and works.”
That leadership was on display in 2020, as Stafford became the highest-profile white player to take a knee in solidarity with his Black teammates during multiple games. Stafford wrote an article in The Players’ Tribune called: “We Can’t Just Stick to Football”.
“Police brutality, white privilege, racism — it’s all real.” wrote Stafford. “It’s time we stop pretending, or defending, or just closing our eyes to what’s right in front of us. And it’s not like this is just our history. This is right now.
“These are not political problems. These are human problems. It should not be seen as a political statement to discuss this stuff honestly.”
Either way, Stafford is displaying what leadership looks like, and despite “media-distraction” lies about Colin Kaepernick supposedly dividing the locker room, his own 49ers teammates voted him a leadership award as the best teammate in 2016. Has the media considered Jared Goff standing while surrounded by his Black Rams teammates kneeling to be more divisive to his team?
Upon arrival, Caldwell said Stafford had the skills to be great, and by 2016 Stafford was already being discussed as an MVP candidate. Back then Caldwell said Peyton Manning “will be certainly donning a Hall of Fame jacket, and another one who’s well on his way.” The other one was Stafford.
Should the Rams head back to the Super Bowl, Sean McVay will not have to adjust much except to let Stafford be the quarterback he already was. And he might want to start by giving Jim Caldwell a call.
Who knows, if they become friends, an NFL team might even hire him.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 37,487
I've always liked Caldwell. Who knows maybe he ends up as our new QBs coach. I would like to see McVay fill that role. Sometimes a QB needs someone they can talk to about what a fucking annoying asshole the head coach or OC is.
This is why I applaud the Lions' hiring of Brunell. Talk about finding a perfect guy for Goff.
This is why I applaud the Lions' hiring of Brunell. Talk about finding a perfect guy for Goff.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 29,832
Yes, that is what I said. We did mortgage the future. And I explained why I was okay with it the first two times. I've also never advocated for determining the value of those trades based on the best players we could have hypothetically picked. That's simply not realistic.
P.S. The original Goff trade was a mistake in hindsight. If you support the Stafford trade, I don't see how you can argue it wasn't a mistake. We just shipped out our #1 overall QB before he even hit his prime window.
FarNorth
Hall of Fame
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2014
- Messages
- 3,060
The last year under Fisher was pretty much the most dysfunctional, least disciplined, poorly schemed and coached offense I have ever seen. At least with the Rams.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 29,832
I hate to come off as defensive, but we had offense in plenty of games where the run wasn't there. Hell, say what you will about Goff's turnovers, but we finished #11 in scoring offense and #7 in total offense (yardage) in 2019 with one of the league's worst running games (26th in rushing yards and 27th in yards per carry). I understand the move based on Goff's turnovers and struggles in 2020, but I still don't like it. I'm a big proponent of patience with young QBs, but that doesn't appear to be the way the NFL is heading at this point.
FarNorth
Hall of Fame
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2014
- Messages
- 3,060
Of course we have mortgaged the future. But that doesn't mean it might not be a legitimate strategy.
We have an all-time great player in AD paired with a great CB in Ramsay. We have the best defense in the league, though maintaining it at that level will be a challenge if it's even possible. There is a good basis to think that we should go for it all now while we have these guys at the top of their game.
The question is, can we make it happen? That's a different story. It's a big time gamble, an interesting and challenging but (hopefully) considered one.
I am skeptical of predictions given the needs and changes coming in the roster including Stafford. No crystal ball here. We'll see what the offseason brings. We'll find out next fall if it works.
But McVay and Snead have rolled the dice. We're committed.
Imo if we're going for it, we can't stop now after getting Stafford. We need to REALLY go for it by filling the holes in the roster by whatever means or resources available.
If the future is now--- then the future is now.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 23,150
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 29,832
That's a pretty big misrepresentation. Nobody is saying that we should have passed on the Stafford trade because we could have acquired a better QB next year. The issue with the Stafford trade for those of us who don't like it is one of value and objectives.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2012
- Messages
- 3,801
Also real talk the wentzer’s lead the crusade and continue to do so. I didn’t realize until that weird guy brought up his 5 yr I told ya so. But holy fuxk. I was pro Goff now I’m pro Stafford. A lot of y’all never let go of wentz ....I really don’t care not looking for discussion just know I see y’all
- Status