Les Snead Better Be Right

[Riverumbbq]

You hate these arguments? What's that, arguments that present the truth that teams do value interior lineman and that an average of 3 have gone in the first round of the draft every year? And no, I'm not going to turn on the games and break him down because I simply don't have the time for that, plus it's honestly not worth my time as I don't really care all that much. Yes good players do fall out of the first round, but if he was as elite as you and some others seem to be claiming, teams would have valued him as so and drafted him in the first round. Or even teams in the 2nd round who sorely needed o-line help that passed him up should've picked him. You could be right and he's may be a great player. But as of right now he's simply a prospect who may or may not pan out.

I do respect your opinion and enjoy the mocks and breakdowns you do on here. I'm not saying lamp is a bad player at all. I'm just saying that #1, teams do value interior lineman in the 1st and early part of the 2nd... and #2, a ton of teams who needed O-line help passed on him and a few even 2 times, for players who were deemed reaches... I know in another post you said you don't trust scouting and management in making these decisions and I said I do. The truth is though, they are reviewing tape all year round, sometimes even two years in advance, its literally they're job, and if they were incompetent at it, they would be out of work. So with this new staff, I'll trust them until proven otherwise.

^This^

I was one of the few who wasn't completely enamored with Lamp as a Ram at this particular time, although I do believe he will turn out to be a fine player and have an otherwise excellent career. Whether he should have been considered BPA is rather subjective and up for debate, but i'm also sure every team that bypassed him had a valid reason at the time. Other than a few games at RG at the very beginning of his college career, Lamp played LT the entire time, and while he flourished in this position at Western Kentucky, his prospects for an NFL career pointed towards the interior of the line, perhaps due in some part to his short arm length. That shouldn't be much of a concern for those teams seeking interior line help, and Lamp, at least for the Rams, was being projected more as a Center than OG because that's where the immediate depth issue appeared most acute. If there's one thing the Rams have, it's depth on the OL, although this doesn't necessarily qualify many of them as elite by any means. The remark over developing in house talent for a back-up center was conveyed weeks ago, around that time we were sniffing at Groy. Our brilliant acquisition of Whitworth really shook our OL depth chart to its foundation, adding the veteran Sullivan sent a message to the league and our own staff that the Rams were serious about immediately turning around our worst team unit. Saffold graded consistently as one of our best OL players for years, he'd finally have a position to call home rather than being jacked from one position to another every time another lineman went down. Havenstein when healthy was a big asset as a rookie, and his draft class which included Brown, Wichmann & Donnal, guys who were forced to start prior to real development will now have an opportunity to grow under a new OL coach in Kromer. The best part is that Kromer prefers coaching these guys up as opposed to replacing them with what was considered a 'thin' class of rookie OLinemen. He is confident that what we have is worth keeping and coaching up. Robinson remains the enigma, ... where is his fit and will we discover it in time before his free agency kicks in ? Personally, I wanted him at RG, but honestly, if Kromer can get this kid on track, I don't care where he plays, just don't let him get away to become an all-pro for someone else.
With loaded depth, I just don't see where Lamp fits in. Are we supposed to draft him in the 2'nd round and sit him while he learns a new position, do the Rams have this luxury ? How many college players have gone immediately from elite LT to starting Center without ever haven taken a snap at the position ? In time, this might prove a successful transition for Lamp, but time in 2017 starting terms isn't clear, especially when we need our top draft pick on the field asap. If Kromer & McVay likes what we currently have on our roster, I have to defer to their will, although enduring the round of complaints coming should Sullivan go down early to injury would be tough to endure. If we had an open space for Lamp as a starting guard, this conversation might be different, but we don't, and he doesn't fit Kromer's typical desire for larger OG's ... at this time Lamp is a true project for consideration as a starting center, as I would consider anyone who had never played the position, even if he has a high upside. jmo.

 

[Loyal]

Ok, we have passed the 100 comment mark, 6 pages..We can officially start bad mouthing each others mothers)

 

[RamFan503]

Yes, it would. It's very different than picking between lottery tickets. It's not an exact science, but you're not operating in the dark either.

If someone wants to say, "He didn't go in the first, so he can't be that good." Fine. Go ahead and explain why. If you can't, you're not in a position to be making that claim.

And yes, NFL teams do disrespect interior OLs. That's not the sole reason why Lamp fell, but it is one of the biggest. If he were considered a legitimate LT prospect, he'd have gone top 20.

I don't think disrespect is a good term for it. Truly great players will be taken early but some positions are valued higher than others - certainly.

 

[RamFan503]

Ok, we have passed the 100 comment mark, 6 pages..We can officially start bad mouthing each others mothers)

Did she ever take off the army boots?

 

[RamFan503]

You can form an opinion. You can post an opinion. However, when you decide to tell another person that their opinion is wrong, you can either put up or shut up. If you haven't done the research, you shouldn't be telling anyone who has that they're wrong. If you have done the research, you should be able to defend your position.

It's that simple. If you don't have the knowledge, don't pretend that you do. Know your limitations. You disrespect the people who have put in the work when you tell them that they're wrong when you lack the knowledge to break down the player's skill-set.

My dad gave me advice when I was young, "Don't start a fight if you can't finish it." If you're going to confront another person on their opinion, you better have the knowledge and information to back yours up. If you don't, don't start the argument.

It's not about infallibility or superiority of information. It's about knowing what you're talking about. If you don't, don't act like you do. There aren't many things that bother me more than that.



Yes, it is more legitimate than using a different one. Sitting down and scrutinizing the player playing football is a much more legitimate method than putting no or minimal effort into researching the player.

Come on jrry. Putting in time evaluating still doesn't make most internet GMs right either. It's perfectly valid to look at what paid professionals did and form an opinion. In all reality, it probably makes the opinion more accurate. Maybe Lamp is a first round talent. But none of us watches as much game tape and has as much info as the paid professionals. Does that mean they are always right? Of course not. But I would put money on them being right more often than 99.9% of the fans trying to second guess them.

 

[Merlin]

Could be worse this guy could be a Rams fan instead. BTW if you've never watched one of his video's get ready for lots of language definitely NSFW.

My kinda dude. Wears his heart on his sleeve, loves his team. I'd love to have some beers and talk ball with this dude.

 

[Mojo Ram]

The undeniable truth was that Gurley regressed. He was getting hit in the backfield almost every time he touched the ball, Goff was sacked/hit like a punching bag...This is more than just GRob's fault

I would contend that the undeniable truth is that just about every offensive player that played under Fisher and his offensive coaching staff either regressed, stagnated, was misused or ignored.
Here are some names that come to mind:
Gurley
Foles
GRob
Kendricks
Cook
T.Austin
Bradford
D.Richardson
Z.Stacy
J.Barksdale
C.Givens
A.Davis
C.Harkey
T.Mason
B.Quick
Havenstein
K.Britt
Goff. Yes Goff.

Benny Cunningham has showed some solid progression since being brought in as UDFA.
Tim Barnes improved a tad.

Then go look at all the defensive players that played under Fisher and how they've been coached into high impact starters, solid role guys...it's a tale of two cities, really. Not a whole lot of regression or stagnation here.
Quinn
Hayes
Langford
Brockers
Long
Donald
Ogletree
Barron
J.Jenkins
Tru Johnson
R.McLeod
M.Alexander
D.Bates
A.Ayers
N.Fairley
L.Joyner
TJ McDonald
etc etc etc

You can nit pick this list and say "well this guy was only here for one year" or "that guy was let go" but when you look at the offense vs defense you can't deny that guys that played under Fisher and Gregg Williams showed FAR more progression and/or sustained impact than just about every offensive player that played here in the last five years. Just bad drafting of offensive players? I think not.
I'm pumped to see what this new legit offensive staff can do moving forward with some of these holdover players. Goff, T.Austin, Gurley, the offensive line.

COACHING

 

[jrry32]

You hate these arguments? What's that, arguments that present the truth that teams do value interior lineman and that an average of 3 have gone in the first round of the draft every year? And no, I'm not going to turn on the games and break him down because I simply don't have the time for that, plus it's honestly not worth my time as I don't really care all that much. Yes good players do fall out of the first round, but if he was as elite as you and some others seem to be claiming, teams would have valued him as so and drafted him in the first round. Or even teams in the 2nd round who sorely needed o-line help that passed him up should've picked him. You could be right and he's may be a great player. But as of right now he's simply a prospect who may or may not pan out.

I do respect your opinion and enjoy the mocks and breakdowns you do on here. I'm not saying lamp is a bad player at all. I'm just saying that #1, teams do value interior lineman in the 1st and early part of the 2nd... and #2, a ton of teams who needed O-line help passed on him and a few even 2 times, for players who were deemed reaches... I know in another post you said you don't trust scouting and management in making these decisions and I said I do. The truth is though, they are reviewing tape all year round, sometimes even two years in advance, its literally they're job, and if they were incompetent at it, they would be out of work. So with this new staff, I'll trust them until proven otherwise.

If you can't be bothered to turn on games and break him down, don't bother someone who has by trying to tell them that they are wrong. You're speaking from a place of ignorance. If you respect my opinion and anyone else's opinion, you wouldn't attempt to tell us that we're wrong when you haven't put the work in.

You're welcome to do whatever you choose to do, but I have no respect for people who take stances like this. I don't care if you say, "I trust the Rams. I trust their decisions." But as soon as your claim becomes, "He must not be as good as you think because...." You've crossed over into judging a player. If you haven't put the time and work in, you shouldn't be making those judgements. And I lose all respect for your opinion when you do.

It's not difficult to refrain from doing that. I refrain from giving judgements on players I haven't evaluated all of the time.

Come on jrry. Putting in time evaluating still doesn't make most internet GMs right either. It's perfectly valid to look at what paid professionals did and form an opinion. In all reality, it probably makes the opinion more accurate. Maybe Lamp is a first round talent. But none of us watches as much game tape and has as much info as the paid professionals. Does that mean they are always right? Of course not. But I would put money on them being right more often than 99.9% of the fans trying to second guess them.

Cool. If Les Snead wants to come on here, I'm sure he'll be capable of explaining his reasoning. If you can't, don't challenge another person who can.

I don't care if a person says that they trust the Rams. That's very different than telling another person that their opinion is wrong. If you're going to challenge another person's opinion, you better have taken the time to develop your own.

 

[Zero]

A lot of people seemed to have a first round grade on him, though. There's got to be a reason as to why he made it as far as be did.

The people who had first round grades on him were the media.
The reason he was selected were he was,is not a matter of him
dropping.It was a matter of the media having him ranked differently than
the 32 teams selecting.
The media misjudged his value.
Jon Toth was on a lot of boards,just not the boards that count.

 

[Zero]

I am actually a little optimistic we didn't draft OL. I mean, just 2 years ago we about spent all our picks there.

They must see pieces to work with, and I do too.

Exactly,CGI. We have a young core of talent who in my mind
who will be coached up by one of the best in the business.
Snead also said it was a shallow talent pool for the oline.

 

[jrry32]

I am actually a little optimistic we didn't draft OL. I mean, just 2 years ago we about spent all our picks there.

They must see pieces to work with, and I do too.

On one hand, it sounds good in theory. On the other hand, if they're wrong, it could be disastrous. I'm hoping for the best.

 

[Merlin]

You can nit pick this list and say "well this guy was only here for one year" or "that guy was let go" but when you look at the offense vs defense you can't deny that guys that played under Fisher and Gregg Williams showed FAR more progression and/or sustained impact than just about every offensive player that played here in the last five years. Just bad drafting of offensive players? I think not.
I'm pumped to see what this new legit offensive staff can do moving forward with some of these holdover players. Goff, T.Austin, Gurley, the offensive line.

COACHING

Agreed. Greg was a top 10 DC and did a good job developing the pieces he was given. Worst part is Fish was willing to quickly change out his DC as proven by Walton, who he canned after one year and rightfully so.

If you look at Fisher's extensive history of coaching he only hit on ONE offensive coordinator: Heimerdinger. That's it. And that one simple area is why he will go down as a pedestrian head coach. Dude was his own worst enemy; there were probably a million fans in New York that could have demonstrated to him how poor a hire Schottenheimer over Jackson was but somehow he couldn't see it. Then of course he was dumb enough to hire from within that poor staff sigh.

Honestly. Sometimes I think decision makers in the NFL don't watch enough football. They disregard fans and often for good reason, but there are so many instances where fans have the pulse on things and they don't that it continually surprises me. McVay and Snead seem to be a good team though, and I like everything they have done thus far, so good days are ahead my friend.

 

[Zero]

But then the improvement I think we all were seeing simply stopped. Is that the players or the coaching and schemes. I'm going with coaching and schemes. Guess we'll see.

BULLSEYE.
Thank You RamFan503 .This is my favorite post of the day.
At Mcvays hiring,I remember Faulk talking about the Faulty schemes
ran by our offense.I remember thinking last year that our line
seemed to be completly confused as to who they were to blocking at times.
How can you be affective if you are confused.
Orlando pace is not going to play worth a shit
if he isn't sure who he is supposed to block.

 

[ramsplaya16]

If you can't be bothered to turn on games and break him down, don't bother someone who has by trying to tell them that they are wrong. You're speaking from a place of ignorance. If you respect my opinion and anyone else's opinion, you wouldn't attempt to tell us that we're wrong when you haven't put the work in.

You're welcome to do whatever you choose to do, but I have no respect for people who take stances like this. I don't care if you say, "I trust the Rams. I trust their decisions." But as soon as your claim becomes, "He must not be as good as you think because...." You've crossed over into judging a player. If you haven't put the time and work in, you shouldn't be making those judgements. And I lose all respect for your opinion when you do.

It's not difficult to refrain from doing that. I refrain from giving judgements on players I haven't evaluated all of the time.



Cool. If Les Snead wants to come on here, I'm sure he'll be capable of explaining his reasoning. If you can't, don't challenge another person who can.

I don't care if a person says that they trust the Rams. That's very different than telling another person that their opinion is wrong. If you're going to challenge another person's opinion, you better have taken the time to develop your own.

It's not that " I can't be bothered by it" it's that unlike some people, a lot of us don't have the time to do it simply put. Between work and family and other commitments, I simply don't have the time. Honestly, it doesn't matter if you "respect people that take stances like this" I'm not here to earn your respect, I'm here to give my opinion on a message board. You gave your opinion, and backed it up by watching hours and hours of tape,im happy for you that you have the time to do that, great. I gave my opinion, and backed it up by the actual draft, which is run by actual teams who do this year round for a living, i judged in the draft by how many teams who had a need passed on him, and also the average amount of interior lineman that go in the first, which countered your "undervalued" claim.

I don't claim you're wrong. As I said, he may be a great player, and all those teams may have missed out, but only time will tell. Just let opinions be opinions and its over with.

 

[shovelpass]

I would contend that the undeniable truth is that just about every offensive player that played under Fisher and his offensive coaching staff either regressed, stagnated, was misused or ignored.
Here are some names that come to mind:
Gurley
Foles
GRob
Kendricks
Cook
T.Austin
Bradford
D.Richardson
Z.Stacy
J.Barksdale
C.Givens
A.Davis
C.Harkey
T.Mason
B.Quick
Havenstein
K.Britt
Goff. Yes Goff.

I was thinking about this earlier, under Fisher's regime they had failed to produce any true offensive talent. Any player that has had success is usually in their first year, then they drop off. Givens, Gurley, Stacy, Mason, Austin, Richardson, and Havenstein all had good/great rookie years only to disappoint in their 2nd season. Hopefully McVay can save Austin, Gurley and Havenstein.

 

[Zero]

I would contend that the undeniable truth is that just about every offensive player that played under Fisher and his offensive coaching staff either regressed, stagnated, was misused or ignored.
Here are some names that come to mind:
Gurley
Foles
GRob
Kendricks
Cook
T.Austin
Bradford
D.Richardson
Z.Stacy
J.Barksdale
C.Givens
A.Davis
C.Harkey
T.Mason
B.Quick
Havenstein
K.Britt
Goff. Yes Goff.

Benny Cunningham has showed some solid progression since being brought in as UDFA.
Tim Barnes improved a tad.

Then go look at all the defensive players that played under Fisher and how they've been coached into high impact starters, solid role guys...it's a tale of two cities, really. Not a whole lot of regression or stagnation here.
Quinn
Hayes
Langford
Brockers
Long
Donald
Ogletree
Barron
J.Jenkins
Tru Johnson
R.McLeod
M.Alexander
D.Bates
A.Ayers
N.Fairley
L.Joyner
TJ McDonald
etc etc etc

You can nit pick this list and say "well this guy was only here for one year" or "that guy was let go" but when you look at the offense vs defense you can't deny that guys that played under Fisher and Gregg Williams showed FAR more progression and/or sustained impact than just about every offensive player that played here in the last five years. Just bad drafting of offensive players? I think not.
I'm pumped to see what this new legit offensive staff can do moving forward with some of these holdover players. Goff, T.Austin, Gurley, the offensive line.

COACHING

Mojo.I gave you a thread winner,but
brother It's just not enough.
Great Post!

 

[jrry32]

It's not that " I can't be bothered by it" it's that unlike some people, a lot of us don't have the time to do it simply put. Between work and family and other commitments, I simply don't have the time.

That's fine, dude. I'm not going to begrudge you for not having time. Nobody here will. That's life. Some of us have the time and enjoy doing it. The issue here isn't that you HAVE to do it. The issue here isn't that you have to do it to have an opinion. The issue here is that you SHOULD do it if you're going to be CRITICAL of another person's opinion.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if you "respect people that take stances like this" I'm not here to earn your respect, I'm here to give my opinion on a message board.

Cool. Then you have no reason to care. You can choose what you want to read from me, and I'll do the same thing with you. That's the nice part of the internet.

Nobody is preventing you from giving your opinion. I'm not even arguing that you shouldn't. The only thing I'm arguing you shouldn't do is be critical of another person's opinion when you can't explain why or justify it because you don't have the knowledge or information to do so.

I'll use an analogy to help illustrate my point. If you were attending an art show, do you think it would be respectful towards the artist for you to see that a professional critic gave one of his pictures one star out of five in a magazine, and then you show up to his show and tell him that his picture sucks because it got one star out of five? And to top all of that off, when the artist asks you to explain why his picture sucks, you say, "Because it got one out of five stars from a professional critic."

I don't think anyone would consider that to be respectful of the work that the artist put in. And that critique of the artist is a lot more clear than NFL Draft positioning.

You gave your opinion, and backed it up by watching hours and hours of tape,im happy for you that you have the time to do that, great. I gave my opinion, and backed it up by the actual draft, which is run by actual teams who do this year round for a living, i judged in the draft by how many teams who had a need passed on him, and also the average amount of interior lineman that go in the first, which countered your "undervalued" claim.

You gave an opinion and backed up with nothing. You have no idea why he went where he did in the NFL Draft. You can't explain it. You can only point us to the same outcome we are all aware of. For example, if Lamp fell for medical reasons, he could easily be as great as we claim. If Lamp fell for positional value reasons, he could easily be as great as we claim. If Lamp fell because of the flow of the draft, he could easily be as great as we claim.

You can't actually determine why he fell. You can't tell us with any certainty that it was because of talent. A friend of mine on another board who has some connections told me that Lamp has some long-term medical issues with his wrists. That might be the reason why he fell for all we know.

You gave us nothing. You were critical of another person's opinion despite having nothing to back your opinion up with.

You also failed to counter my undervalued claim. You can't counter my undervalued claim. I've actually put a significant amount of research into it as a theory I have. I already knew what you posted. I posted it less than a week ago on another board. In order to counter my undervalued claim, you'd have to analyze how interior OLs fare in the first round (and the draft overall) when compared to other positions...both in terms of average number taken per year and average draft slot per year.

What happened in this draft? It was the first time in the modern era that no OL was taken in the top 20 picks. Do you think that had an effect on what happened to the interior OLs? Do you think this being a very strong defensive draft at the top had an effect on where the interior OLs went? Steve Smith mentioned in his interview with Josh Reynolds that the second and third tier WRs would get pushed down the board because of how talented the draft is on defense.(which all goes back to my point about the flow of the draft)

The fact is that you can't tell us anything about why Lamp went where he did. On the other hand, we can tell you exactly what we think Lamp should have went before he did.

I don't claim you're wrong. As I said, he may be a great player, and all those teams may have missed out, but only time will tell. Just let opinions be opinions and its over with.

That's exactly what you did. You didn't direct it at me, but your claim did paint my opinion as wrong. I'll even post it for you:

...so if Lamp was THAT good, he would have gotten drafted as early as guys in recent past...

But you're right that it's time to move on. I've made my opinion on this subject known, and I'm happy with the outcome of the draft.

 

[InnovatedMind]

Anyway,

I'm glad we stuck with addressing our offense. It was our number 1 plan going into the draft, evident by all of the interviews beforehand and after.

I'm glad we stuck to our board. We addressed our needs by having players fall and didn't panic. Lamp may or may not have been good, honestly I don't care. With the pieces we got, it's only a matter of time until we turn it around.

Not everything was going to get fixed in 1 year.

 

[Prime Time]

While I agree that Lamp would have been the best selection for the Rams, as a mod I disagree with the following statement.

The issue here isn't that you HAVE to do it. The issue here isn't that you have to do it to have an opinion.

This has the potential to shut down discussion, which is the opposite of what we're trying to do here. Everyone has the right to an opinion here at ROD, not just those who spend time studying film. By that token, those who are professional coaches in the NFL should never be criticized because they spend more time studying film than any of us.

I've been watching the Rams play for over 50 years but that doesn't mean I can tell someone their opinion means less than mine because they're younger and less experienced at seeing the nuances of NFL play.

Now there's a difference between opinion and informed opinion. And one shouldn't be overly critical with someone when you don't have the same information, I can see how that would be annoying. And if someone gets involved in an argument in a thread, they should attempt to back it up with facts. So we're on the same page there. But everyone here has a right to express themselves and that will continue to be encouraged here at ROD.

 

[jrry32]

Now there's a difference between opinion and informed opinion. And one shouldn't be overly critical with someone when you don't have the same information, I can see how that would be annoying. And if someone gets involved in an argument in a thread, they should attempt to back it up with facts. So we're on the same page there. But everyone here has a right to express themselves and that will continue to be encouraged here at ROD.

I'm confused, Prime Time. You quoted a post of me saying exactly that. I said that it's fine to have an opinion, but you shouldn't be critical of others' opinions if you can't back it up with facts. I've maintained throughout this discussion that I have no problem with people expressing their opinions regardless of the information they have or don't have.

If someone says, "I love the Rams' draft." That's fine. If someone says, "I hate the Rams' draft." That's also fine. What I take issue with is someone saying, "Your opinion of that player is wrong" when they haven't watched the guy play. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

I know it seems like I'm going off here, and it's why I'm just going to drop it. I don't want to spoil the mood. The draft we had is worth celebrating.