Jeff Fisher Anyone?

[joeybittick]

7th (again, I think):

Player Improvement / Development - Should have more players improving or taking their skills to next level. Too many players are idle or in decline. Where are the lower draft picks who has turned into a solid role/back up player or even a starter. Most have been cut or released (Gilyard, Fendi, Grant, Hines, and so on). How many draft picks have been lost? Honestly...how many have been wasted? Didn't we want to change direction of 3 year passing and all draft picks gone or no being a factor?

Injuries, injuries, and injuries. Players cant show how much they have improved when they are on IR. And for development, Darian Stewart was undrafted in 2010. He has not been Ed Reed but I have heard good things about him and he has been good enough to unseat Dahl (also undrafted and a decent player).

I could go through the roster and we could compare how many players are on the team from the 09 draft on compared to the 8 or so years prior. But I am lazy so I will not unless you request it. And as far as Gilyard, he was a 4th round pick, how many teams hit on every one of those? And Fendi was a 6th rounder that they took a chance on. According to his number measurments he could have been the next Antonio gates, so they took a flier on him. C'mon, it was a 6th round pick. Hines was a fifth rounder. Those are the rounds where you take chances on players that may measure out well as far as workouts but be lacking in other areas, at least that is how I have always viewed it (and many others have as well).

Scott- 2009 4th rd pick
Uh-Oh- 2010 5th rd
Eugene Sims- 2010 6th
Marquise Johnson (PUP)- 2010 7th
Josh Hull- 2010 7th

That is not a bad list for 4th round plus guys IMO. are there teams that have done better in the draft, surely. Was Jason Smith maybe a bad mistake, yeah. But they are developing one of the top MLB's, one (and hopefully two ) top DE's, a good LT, a Franchise QB... Those are the most important positions on the field, and they have the guys in place to lead the Franchise for the next 10 years.

Oh, can someone seriously remind me what he said... I know Dick Vermeil said something like "to build a team you need 3 positions" I know one of the was Left Tackle, I cannot remember the other right now as I am dead tired. But yeah, we may have the LT...

Bottom line, they are not nearly as bad at player development as some portray them to be, at least IMO. They may not have developed in certain positions (WR), but in others they are doing well. And Tom Brady won 3 rings without a real number 1 WR (or maybe even a number 2).

 

[-X-]

coaching influence is highly overrated and outside factors influence team success much much more.

Bingo.

A team need only lose one or two of their 'centerpieces', and things can go south in a hurry. Consecutive bad drafts can also leave you talent deficient a few years down the road. Multiple injuries will make a team very uncompetitive. Knute Rockne couldn't muster a speech good enough to overcome some of those things.

 

[joeybittick]

IN 2010 the Rams did not have a single WR or TE in the bottom 15 of drop %. Guess who did make it... Brandon Marshall, Santonio Holmes, Wes Welker, and Desean Jackson (worst in the NFL) to name a few. Drops happen. TO consistently led the league in the category. Who is to blame there?

To be fair, not only did those WRs far out produce ours, but the higher drop % is most DEFINITELY due to the # of deep routes those WRs ran. Our WR's ran routes that were < 10 yds almost exclusively.

I agree with you there. But, that was not the statement made. The statement was:

Very High Drop % - No matter the system catching the ball is standard. This team had the same issue in 2010.

And I was just saying that when you look at the drop % around the NFL, the Rams were not really that high, by percentage of dropped balls. That is all. I was by no means saying the Rams Wr were better than Marshall or Jackson etc.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Lack of Identity - Also a coaching and directional issue. Are we a ground and pound (MMA BABY) team. Are we an pass attack team.

We are a ground and pound team in the process of turning into a pass attack team. It doesn't take a single year to make that transition. We all love Jackson, but he's not the long term answer, Bradford is.

That identity was established when we drafted Bradford and started looking for receivers for him to throw to above all else. Salas and Kendricks (Pettis looks good the last two games) might have some issues to overcome, but they will. Do that. Next year I think we're going to have a far different recording corps.

Draft Pick - a big #1 type guy probabably
DX
Amendola
Pettis (replaces Gibsons spot)
Salas
Clayton (if he has a good year when he returns)

My prediction. I also think Kendricks will get over his issues as well. If all these guys are healthy and able to consistently catch (get over their mental mistakes this year), and play to their potential that's a pretty hard group to cover.

The problem right now is guys aren't playing to their potential. Our passing attack would be much better if they were.

 

[joeybittick]

Look I get it. We need to support our team and be positive. But at what point do we "infuse" (I like that word) honesty and reality into the equation.

Can anyone honestly say a coach who has 8 wins in 36 games is a "good coach"? And its not the loses but the way we lose.

We beat ourselves more than the opposing teams beat us. In the 28 loses, how many has been self inflicted (discipline)....I count at least half.

It should start at the bottom and keep going up until things change. Make roster changes until someone steps up and claims a position. Scale the playbooks back to make them simpler and increase the complexity of the plays incrementally. Fire position coaches and promote assistants. Etcetera.

Agreed.....

But Spags said they WILL NOT change the offensive approach because "Its proven to work"

Loney has yet to lose his jobs.....want to bet that Spags will not fire him??

Roster changes.....How long did it take before Spags realize Dahl was a coverage liability at Safety ? How long are we to do with go with King as a starter....once Bartell and Murphy was comfimred to be out...should grabbing a CB be priority. Why wait til Ravens torch King?

Why wait to give DX snaps? Why have DX inactive game 1. Why play Ah- You over Quinn? I do not think Spags have credibility on roster management. Can't trust him to promote others. THink he live and die with a player

Spags adjust too late. They are too buried by the time he make a move.

So yes the bold quote is 100% correct. What if the coach refuse to do it? Or is late doing it?

:omg: :omg: :omg: :omg: You of all people should cut him some slack for the skewed record given the situation in 09 *cough* Marc Bulger *cough*. I think that is a low blow even bringing up 09. Given that roster, it was a miracle they won a single game IMO. And given your history ranting and raving :omg: :omg: :omg: :omg: about Marc Bulger leading that team and how awful he was, coupled with the fact that you KNOW how awful the rest of the team was, 09 should be wiped from the books. At least by you... IMO of course.

 

[-X-]

I never said he needed to go. Said the team is poorly coached. I think X posted a article about the 5 things Spags should do....

I prefer Spags do those things and right this ship over getting another head coach.

I do feel this team is, and has been , poorly coached due to the lack of discipline and confusion. And the discipline is not only the players but the position coaches are also accountable.

I mean Spags fire equipment manager and other positions that serves no purpose but keeps Loney who has had failing OLs under his wing for over 4 to 5 years....

Spags has a lot to do if he want to keep his job.

Lets face it, yes we had a good year (if we can call 7 wins a good year) but it was an extremely weak schedule. When the pressure is on this team falls apart. I mean not even competing. Same misake from years ago.

It is a reflection of the coach when adjustments are made late and the team is unprepared and undiscipline

Spags still has time but he better change his approach because his current approach is not working

That's a fair post, but I still wish you would take everything else into account. I agree on-field performance is a reflection of the coach, but honestly, do you KNOW where he's falling short? Do you KNOW that he's not laying it down in the locker room or on the field? Personally, I believe this season has dramatically affected teams that have changed systems and not so much teams that haven't (G.B., N.E., N.O., BUF, DET, etc.) Those teams largely have the same guys, same systems, and same assistants.

Agreed. Then again, the whiners are 3-1. SMH.....

The whiners haven't changed much at all that I'm aware of. Their fan base was going nuts over their lack of off-season moves too. I remember the overreaction from that. And despite claims that Harbaugh was a reach or overrated, some knew that was going to be a good fit. They're doing things almost identical to how the Rams did them last year, and their roster is full of guys that have been doing it together for a while now. And Harbaugh (being more subdued than Singletary) really only reinforces that barking coaches aren't the answer. What it does reinforce is that system, health, familiarity and chemistry -- together -- are a recipe for success.

 

[joeybittick]

Look I get it. We need to support our team and be positive. But at what point do we "infuse" (I like that word) honesty and reality into the equation.

Can anyone honestly say a coach who has 8 wins in 36 games is a "good coach"? And its not the loses but the way we lose.

We beat ourselves more than the opposing teams beat us. In the 28 loses, how many has been self inflicted (discipline)....I count at least half.

It should start at the bottom and keep going up until things change. Make roster changes until someone steps up and claims a position. Scale the playbooks back to make them simpler and increase the complexity of the plays incrementally. Fire position coaches and promote assistants. Etcetera.

Agreed.....

But Spags said they WILL NOT change the offensive approach because "Its proven to work"

Loney has yet to lose his jobs.....want to bet that Spags will not fire him??

Roster changes.....

How long did it take before Spags realize Dahl was a coverage liability at Safety ?

How long are we to do with go with King as a starter....once Bartell and Murphy was comfimred to be out...should grabbing a CB be priority. Why wait til Ravens torch King?

Why wait to give DX snaps? Why have DX inactive game 1. Why play Ah- You over Quinn? I do not think Spags have credibility on roster management. Can't trust him to promote others. THink he live and die with a player

Spags adjust too late. They are too buried by the time he make a move.

So yes the bold quote is 100% correct. What if the coach refuse to do it? Or is late doing it?

The Strong Safety (I think it was SS) is just not an overly important position in his scheme, at least from what I have heard. They are just supposed to support the run mainly. At least that is what smarter people than I have said.

And I am curious what great CB was there to be had?

While I agree DX should be used more, he has had FIVE surgeries to one knee, so I forgive the coaches for being a bit wary of turning the guy 100% loose. They are using him judiciously, right or wrong, I can at least understand the reason.

I cannot argue that Spags seems slow to adjust, at least given some of their struggle adapting in game.

And as far as supporting the team, I will never stop. I even gave Linehan the benefit of the doubt until the day he was fired, then I ripped him to shreds. Until then I tried everything I could to stay positive about him, because otherwise SUndays are just fucking awful for me. Not saying that is the right way, but that is how I am.

I think I am objective, but I am always going to be optimistic to a fault about the Rams. I wake up on Monday and begin counting the hours until Sunday rolls around again. I would much rather (Sometimes fool myself into) believe they are going to win every game, even GB. I will somehow delude myself into beleiving they are going to win (or at least have a shot to) that game by the time it rolls around. That pisses some people off, but quite effing frankly, I do not care.

 

[-X-]

Look I get it. We need to support our team and be positive. But at what point do we "infuse" (I like that word) honesty and reality into the equation.

Can anyone honestly say a coach who has 8 wins in 36 games is a "good coach"? And its not the loses but the way we lose.

We beat ourselves more than the opposing teams beat us. In the 28 loses, how many has been self inflicted (discipline)....I count at least half.

Are you implying that I'm not being honest or real about anything I'm saying? Or are you averse to being disagreed with? Your definition of reality is based on an opinion, and there's nothing honest about that. 8-36 is a bad record for a coach who took over a veteran team with a history of winning. 8-36 is about what you'd expect from a coach who took over a team that had to be immediately scrapped, then having an inability to sign free agents, and then having to try an integrate youth into a team with a new system, and with 3 weeks of off-season. Nevermind all of the wide receiver injuries from last year and a rookie QB. That shouldn't matter. Just stare at the numbers like the Matrix and that should be all telling, yeah?

Your only point that may have some merit would lean toward the lack of FOCUS. Discipline and focus are entirely different words with entirely different meanings. Discipline comes through repetition, unless you're talking about the team being undisciplined because they're being afforded too much latitude in their own individual responsibilities or work ethic. Either way, you're speculating that Spagnuolo is responsible for a collective works without (again) accounting for any other variables.

The Colts haven't won a game, are 29th in point differential, 28th in scoring, and 28th in points allowed, when historically they have been a perennial playoff team. Who's to blame there? Caldwell? Or are there variables we should account for in their sudden demise?

 

[joeybittick]

There's a lot of things that could be said...

In general, sometimes a team might find itself in a bad morale situation where a coaching change is necessitated even though the coach is doing an overall good job on other individual performances. This could end up as one of those cases. It's not yet, as I believe the reports from camp indicate. Spags has yet to lose the team.

As you go through this thread, you start to see how system continuity is the key to success and that changes yielding results are the outliers. The teams that have long term consistent success have many players past their first contracts that they have drafted and groomed in their system. They Rams in contrast, have almost all new players. Their only two long term players are SJ and Bartell, and both of those players have missed significant time or are out indefinitely. You can't win that way when the average player plays 6 years and the average 1st round pick plays 9 years. As I keep pointing out, look at Baltimore. It's not even that Lewis and Reed have been there in a single defensive system for years, its that they have a guy like Jared Johnson at OLB next to Lewis, a 9 year vet. Where's the Rams Jared Johnson? Or outside this forum many bring up Cowher. But lets put him in context. He followed a SB winning HC at Pittsburgh, and was followed by a SB winning coach in Pittsburgh. And this is a franchise that has had 3 HCs since 1969 . Cowher did not build that program, he was the caretaker. And bringing him here would necessitate changing to the 3-4, a rather massive project considering the Rams have been grabbing guys for a Jim Johnson 4-3.

Worst to First Miami. Football Outsiders, I believe, did a look at this. The year they won 3 games both Ron Brown and Chad Pennington missed significant time and they were one of the most injury decimated teams in the league. And in their turnaround to winning the AFC East Pennington in particular had his last healthy year and they were a league leader in team health. FO's prognosis? Team health matters a lot. Now sync that up with the Rams this season. Even the DC has been injured...

I'm one of those that prefers to let the owner worry about such moves. I can speculate, but demands? One fan means nothing. The fans together are everything. But I get perturbed about the amount of what I call, "magic wand" thinking out there. That there's an easy fix out there with this or that coach or GM or whatever. Well, no, there's not. Winning in the NFL is hard, and stuff a lot of fans pass of as "excuses" are just the historically proven realities. Blowing two complete drafts as the Rams did in '06-'07? That will haunt you for most of a decade. Getting 2 starters from '05 through '09? Worse. Falling into a ton of dead money and bloated cap, an IRS mandated team sale, AND a CBA lockout while trying to rebuild? It's the worst rebuild scenario in the modern NFL and much worse than any expansion build. And this is why I said before Spags name ever came up he was going to get fired in 3 to 4 years. It was too much. It's also why Peter King told Spags he was insane to take the Rams job, and King thinks Spags is a terrific coach.

To get back to the Texans, they've given Kubiak 6 years now, while trying to get over the hump.

No, there is not all candy and nuts with new coaching hires and system change. There are very definite downsides and costs.

Maybe they should just try consistency come heck or high water for a few years. But, in the end, Kroenke has to decide, and we have to watch, at least as long as we're watching.

And Jeff Fisher. How interesting. The call from fans is coming for him when I believe within his last 3 seasons in TN he went both 0-8 once and 8-0 once. How could that be with him being a good and consistent HC? Or, is it as I suspect, a sign that coaching influence is highly overrated and outside factors influence team success much much more.

Excellent post imo. And the bold parts were really great points.

 

[Stranger]

coaching influence is highly overrated and outside factors influence team success much much more.

Bingo.

A team need only lose one or two of their 'centerpieces', and things can go south in a hurry. Consecutive bad drafts can also leave you talent deficient a few years down the road. Multiple unfortunate incidents will make a team very uncompetitive. Knute Rockne couldn't muster a speech good enough to overcome some of those things.

The team alway takes-on the personality of its head coach, and these repeated on-field mistakes are the sign of a pervailing attitude that it's okay to fail. This is basically what Orlando said in his interview this week, which I posted here, and I am convinced that this is our more significant issue.

Further, I don't think this coach will make the approprate changes within himself until he fails at this job. I saw the same with Dick Vermeil when he was the coach of the Eagles... it took 14 years away from coaching and a revolt by the Ram players for Vermeil finally to see the errors in his ways.

No, only way we are going to suceed is with another regime. And while I hate the prospect of starting over, I see this as the ONLY option now.

I was all for Jeff Fisher when we lost Linehan, and now I'd take either Fisher or Gruden in a heart beat. What we do at GM I don't know. But when I learned that this current regime pulled-down all of the GSOT memorabila, it was the final straw for me. In my 40 years of being a fan of the Rams, I've never been this pissed-off at management.

 

[-X-]

coaching influence is highly overrated and outside factors influence team success much much more.

Bingo.

A team need only lose one or two of their 'centerpieces', and things can go south in a hurry. Consecutive bad drafts can also leave you talent deficient a few years down the road. Multiple unfortunate incidents will make a team very uncompetitive. Knute Rockne couldn't muster a speech good enough to overcome some of those things.

The team alway takes-on the personality of its head coach, and these repeated on-field mistakes are the sign of a pervailing attitude that it's okay to fail. This is basically what Orlando said in his interview this week, which I posted here, and I am convinced that this is our more significant issue.

Further, I don't think this coach will make the approprate changes within himself until he fails at this job. I saw the same with Dick Vermeil when he was the coach of the Eagles... it took 14 years away from coaching and a revolt by the Ram players for Vermeil finally to see the errors in his ways.

No, only way we are going to suceed is with another regime. And while I hate the prospect of starting over, I see this as the ONLY option now.

I was all for Jeff Fisher when we lost Linehan, and now I'd take either Fisher or Gruden in a heart beat. What we do at GM I don't know. But when I learned that this current regime pulled-down all of the GSOT memorabila, it was the final straw for me. In my 40 years of being a fan of the Rams, I've never been this pissed-off at management.

The team always takes on the personality of its head coach? How's that? Baltimore has had a couple of head coaches in Ray Lewis' tenure and their defense remains the same. Pittsburgh has had a couple of head coaches, and they haven't changed. Tampa went from Dungy (nice guy) to Gruden (yeller) to Raheem Morris, and they haven't changed much. Indianapolis went from Dungy to Caldwell and their production or personality didn't alter.

What about Vermeil and Martz? Same teams, same results (almost). I'd be more inclined to believe that teams take on the personality of their veteran leadership, if we're going to talk about personalities. As far as team identity, that's always a product of the system. Since 2008, this would now be the third (system).

I guess a bunch of us are just going to differ on this. Some would like to point a finger at one specific thing, and others are more inclined to itemize the list.

 

[-X-]

I see a lot of replies, arguments, excuses, explanations andf so on....

And now you've provided the answer, so we should just stop discussing it?

 

[joeybittick]

I see a lot of replies, arguments, excuses, explanations andf so on....

Lets do this...

In 3 years has this team turned around in a pace that others have....

Rams*
Bills*
Lions*
Bucs*
Chiefs*
Bengals
Browns*
Jags
Raiders*
49ers*
Packers

* indicated coaching change


Teams who had losing record in 2008.

How many of those teams failed to obtian a.500 record with in 3 years after a coaching change? Just 4.




Bills
Rams
Lions
Browns

Out of the 4...only the Rams have failed to show improvement from 2008 in 2011. Yes we improved in 2010 but again, I am srtarting to believe it was the weak schedule. Either that or the team have taken a step back.


No one can say this team is discipline
No one can say this team makes adjustments during the games
No one can say this team is headed in right direction
No one can say this team is in good shape.

This season thus far has opened many eyes. Spags has his work cut out if he is going to keep his job

Thats a fact. I hope he get his act together because I like the guy and do not want the Rams to go through another change. Spags HAS to be the guy.....if he fails...we have to get a proven hardnose to get this team whipped into shape.

Like it or not, mental laspe are a part of poor discipline. Discipline helps one focus. Discipline leads to self discipline that leads to self foucs.

Look it up. Poor focus = lack of self discipline = Poor discipline

Speak for yourself. Man, I have tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you just throw shit against the wall and hope noone calls you on it. You should be typing like this... but at least his numbers make sense...

I may get into the reasons why in a bit, not sure, but this criteria for your argument is just... it makes no sense. None of that is relevant. If every team were the same team then it would be, but they are not... fuck, I do not even know why I am trying to argue.

You want to give up and spout a bunch of BS about how "ALL HOPE IS LOST" go right ahead. But your whole act is just ridiculous.

 

[-X-]

But to say he is doing a good job is not accurate.

Well good thing I didn't say that then.

Like I said. I'm accounting for a great many variables. You're not. I'm moving on to other things now.

 

[joeybittick]

I am just going to focus on this every sunday

 

[Anonymous]

I am just going to focus on this every sunday

Me too......but I'd bet Spags is on the hot plate. :omg:

 

[Anonymous]

holy crap i started a 7 page thread! lol


but um its game over for spags. there is a load of talented coaches that are proven winners other there. if this world makes any sense then spags is a goner.

 

[bluecoconuts]

holy crap i started a 7 page thread! lol


but um its game over for spags. there is a load of talented coaches that are proven winners other there. if this world makes any sense then spags is a goner.

That would be incredibly foolish. You don't can a coach every time the team has bad luck.

That's exactly what this is, Spags isn't the god of injuries who's prancing around laughing as he trips all of our DB's and puts them on IR. The defense is a direct reflection of our injures. The offense is a direct reflection of a new scheme/youth.

If next year the Rams are facing these problems still, then I'll buy into the coaching change. But until they have a relevantly healthy roster, and understand the complex offense (that takes over a year to master FYI, not two and a half months as the Rams have had with it), any notion of a coaching change is stupid.

 

[phantmjokr]

I see a lot of replies, arguments, excuses, explanations andf so on....

Lets do this...

In 3 years has this team turned around in a pace that others have....

Rams*
Bills*
Lions*
Bucs*
Chiefs*
Bengals
Browns*
Jags
Raiders*
49ers*
Packers

* indicated coaching change


Teams who had losing record in 2008.

How many of those teams failed to obtian a.500 record with in 3 years after a coaching change? Just 4.




Bills
Rams
Lions
Browns

Out of the 4...only the Rams have failed to show improvement from 2008 in 2011. Yes we improved in 2010 but again, I am srtarting to believe it was the weak schedule. Either that or the team have taken a step back.


No one can say this team is discipline
No one can say this team makes adjustments during the games
No one can say this team is headed in right direction
No one can say this team is in good shape.

This season thus far has opened many eyes. Spags has his work cut out if he is going to keep his job

Thats a fact. I hope he get his act together because I like the guy and do not want the Rams to go through another change. Spags HAS to be the guy.....if he fails...we have to get a proven hardnose to get this team whipped into shape.

Like it or not, mental laspe are a part of poor discipline. Discipline helps one focus. Discipline leads to self discipline that leads to self foucs.

Look it up. Poor focus = lack of self discipline = Poor discipline

Ah, K.C. 10 wins last season, and this year? They look horrible. Have suffered injuries. And everyone is on the hot seat with media and the fans. So this leads to that fundamental question again. How does Tood Haley go from bad to good to bad in one guy? Or more specifically how does Spags post a season of +6 wins to an 0-4 start? In most cases a +6 gain in wins would put most teams in the playoffs.

DYK, the Rams have played nothing but top 10 teams this season. The Eagles have dropped out, but all the rest remain, at this time in the top 10.

And one last bit. Bradfords QB rating is noticeably higher in the 3rd quarter than the 2nd or 4th. I take that as a sign of adjustments.

There's only a few teams on that list I think are comparable to what the Rams have been through and that's only on several levels and not full scope. Several of them are ones that ping pong up and down, like Cincy (where Lewis has been there for years) or have been mired in mediocrity like the Jags.

The Bucs sort of interest me as a comparison because they are such a young team, but I've not looked at the totality of vets they kept and carry. I know Barber is still there. They had to make a late comeback in a close game versus the Rams last year...

Eh, there are a lot of variables we're talking about here for a lot of historically up and down teams. A lot of teams change coaches often to no avail. There is no proven method on that account. You're looking to get lucky. And then there are the perennial powers of system stability. Belicheat had I think 1 winning season in his 1st six, and guys who lots of people thought were great architects have gone on to mediocre results. Parcells Miami experiment had one good year, and has mostly floundered. Then you have a list of turnarounds and long runs by guys that came from more or less nowhere or without proven records. Raheem Morris, Belicheat, Schwartz, I don't even know who is coaching the Raiders or Bills without looking, Mike Smith, etc. There is no proven method over hiring guys you think are good and letting them do their jobs over time. Change isn't always a good thing.

Now can I say the Rams have the right guys? No. And frankly, I don't know. But I do think I know, and have shown that they are mired in a situation that I do not believe anyone could have been thought to have turned around in 3 years. Not these three years with the problems and situation the Rams have been through that are well documented. Add in trying to install one of the more complex offenses in the league with the top 10 teams on the schedule, and what has happened should not be a total surprise. No, they have not played well. I would like to get a look at them when they feel more comfortable in this offense. We'll see.

 

[-X-]

holy crap i started a 7 page thread! lol


but um its game over for spags. there is a load of talented coaches that are proven winners other there. if this world makes any sense then spags is a goner.

Yes. Clap. Clap. Clap.

But um, it's not game over for Spags. And if the world made any sense, there wouldn't be SEVEN cornerbacks, from one team, on injured reserve right now.