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Is Mannion the best QB on the roster right now?
- Thread starter blackbart
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It's been said time and time again that one of the Main reasons McVay was hired was to help bring Goff to speed that's the Main reason why Kroenke and Demoff wanted a offensive minded coach. McVay energy just was a plus, that's also why he brought in a lot of guy with experience working with QBs.
It's not just McVay anytime you but in that much draft capitol in a qb you want to see what they have. The Raiders game was a cake walk the receivers was wide open get a lot of yac cause Goff definitely wasn't throwing deep the only deep pass he threw was to a wide open Kupp.
The chargers game McVay pulled him early. He don't want Goff to get hurt understandably that's our number 1 draft pick, and when I mean pulled during the regular season I mean that I don't think Goff will have as big of a leash as some might think.
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Lol. According to these tweets even his so called good passes should have been done different. Wishing Mannion had fumbled, the throw should have been tidier lol. This is what I'm talking about even when he does something good it's not good enough or it should have been that way.
bluecoconuts
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There are condensed games you can watch and see for yourself if you look objectively. There are some obvious flaws to Mannion's game. From how he sometimes jerks his head when he calls for the snap (that's a tell the defense could key in on quickly if they study the tape) from staring down receivers and missing open ones. The nice thing about them is that you can slow down (YouTube controls) to get a feel for how the play is developing, but you don't have to worry about other bullshit fillers like them standing around. It goes from one play to the next, every so often it may show a highlight on a play.
Here's one for the Raiders game:
View: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_0SmtX8MuQqMUhuaGkzeENOdG8/view
Here's one for the Chargers game:
View: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_0SmtX8MuQqTzVBTVd6YjlRQjg/view
You can download them to your computer/device and get more control with the videos, if you need.
The nice thing about those videos is that you can easily jump between watching Goff and watching Mannion, and you can compare individual traits about them. Goff looks to be more polished under center now, very comfortable, you can watch him with a correct throwing motion and stance, you can see him scan the field more, go from one target to the next, you can watch him be consistent in how he calls for the snap. Those are things you can see pretty clearly, and it makes it a lot more obvious why Goff is starting. Mannion doesn't look as polished or as poised, and he's missing a lot of receivers from what the tape appears to show.
Obviously without the all-22 you can't be 100% certain, but we can get a pretty decent idea of what's being missed. Right now scanning through the plays I see Goff making progressions and Mannion locking on one receiver far more often than not.
I don't know why you're saying throws where he overthrew a receiver but kept it in bounds is a good throw, a miss is a miss. A good throw that misses is one like we saw from Goff to Watkins that got dropped, or one where the defender makes a great play on it, not an overshoot... I'd also argue that leaving receivers out to dry is a very real thing.
Looking over his tweets, he obviously is making a point that Goff is better (which I agree with) by highlighting Mannion flaws. A little harsh and not really needed in my opinion, but those flaws are there and are apparent, and what he's pointing out is true. My guess is he's doing this because he's sick of hearing that Mannion is better from people, I don't blame him, it does get tiring.. But it's preseason, and what the hell else is there to do? Does he get nit-picky about going to a checkdown too early, yeah a little, but he does have a point.
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As I see it, one of Mannion's greatest flaws is exposing his receivers to punishing hits. Throwing high, late or long causes his receivers stretch for balls and leave themselves exposed to punishment. There was at least three examples of this on Saturday.
bluecoconuts
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McVay was brought in to win games and help turn this franchise around.
Goff is part of that franchise and was not developed by the previous regime, so obviously McVay needed to develop him and see what he had. McVay was and is under no obligation, that we know of, to play Goff. I very much doubt that Stan would tell McVay that he has to play Goff regardless of what he thought of him as a QB. Goff is starting because he's the best QB on the roster. That's the reason, the only reason. We know this because Goff sat for 9 games last year while Keenum, who did his best, stunk up the field. If Goff was being forced on McVay he would have been forced on Fisher. I think that Goff was forced on Fisher in terms of drafting him, but Fisher didn't want to play him, so he sat him. If Stan didn't step in then, why now?
There's also zero evidence that McVay pulled Goff early against the Chargers. McVay has indicated that this isn't the case, you're reading into something that's not there and trying to force it to fit your narrative.
The tape is there, it's clear as day. Goff is simply better. Just like Matt Ryan, and Tom Brady, and Russel Wilson and a lot of other QB's are better than Goff. The tape will show that as well, the tape don't lie.
JackDRams
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Haha that's funny. Like i said, I didn't read his tweets just posted so others could check it out. He's a pretty good follow during games and camp though.
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The head jerk is the same thing Rodgers does with his hands to get defenders to jump offsides. As Mannion does intend to get a lot more encroachments and offsides calls then Goff.
Highlighting flaws is saying he has a slow release or saying that he locks onto his receivers, or he is slow in his back pedal those are flaws, saying things like it was a good throw but if he throw it to the shoulder he could have got a extra yard that's not pointing out a flaw.
And i have seen every qb leave their receiver out to dry that's why there are defenseless receiver rules in the game and as a qb and receiver they both were in the zone on that play.
In regards to misses being good throws there are. Like overthrowing a deep pass instead of underthrowing where it gets intercepted or like Goff last year throwing them out of bounds and not giving your receiver a chance.
I'm not saying Mannion is a finished product but at the same time I'm not trying to be a guy who analyzes plays if that's what he wanna do on twitter then he needs to do it objectively otherwise you come across as a troll and someone that's calling themselves a Rams fan but saying things like that should have been a fumble Mannion got a way with one.
That pass from Goff to Watkins was the BEST deep throw Goff made and I acknowledged that even though the pass was dropped I gave Goff his props like I always do. The difference is I don't say well that was a bad pass but he got bailed out, because I know that every pass isn't going to be where they want it every pass isn't going to come out the way they want it. I didn't criticize Goff on that interception because shit happens. I said last year I don't care about Goff throwing picks because it's go happen.
But what works me up is when guys like that don't point out all of his precision passes the one deep down the field to Reynolds that he dropped or against the Raiders completing all those third down passes or how he has been blitzed more and hit more but still only been sacked 2x.
I do look at things objectively that how I'm able to give Goff his props when he make plays and how I'm able to withhold criticism when he doesn't do well
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Bro what tape.? The tape thats says 0-7 5 tds against 7 interceptions that tape,? Come on. I don't need anything to fit my narrative I'm able to see what I see and call out what I see just because it's not the "popular" opinion amongst rams fan doesn't mean I have a narrative .
If you don't think Stan and Demoff and Snead wasn't told to try to develop Goff than that's on you. But if I spent all that draft capital you better believe I'm going to tell my head coach to give him every resource available to make it work. That's why I said it's now on Goff to show something to keep McVay invested on making sure he's the ONE.
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Every throw not go be perfect and coverage dictates a throw. One the first one Reynolds dropped he was in between a linebacker and Corner and there was a safety lurking Mannion put the ball where only Reynolds could get it. He put both hands on the ball before he was even touched.
The second one where Reynolds got laid out was just a bang bang play which was a penalty those happens. And I don't recall the third one that you mentioned. That's something people seem not to realize that coverage dictates how throws are made unless you want line drives and interceptions all game
Soul Surfer
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" tidier " LMAO
JackDRams
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Yeah, but pages 1-2 are identical to 3-4, and to 5-6, etc so really it's only about 2 pages worth of actual discussion.
There's some good analysis.
bluecoconuts
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The problem is that Mannion only seems to do it when he's in the shotgun and the ball is actually being snapped, that makes it a tell. There's nothing to suggest that Mannion or Goff are better at drawing people offside than the other, I don't know why you'd say that Mannion is better at it. Neither of them have enough time (especially Mannion) to have displayed that ability.
Ball placement is a flaw as well, albeit of a different nature. That's a flaw with the arm, or the release, if it's coachable or not is another thing. For Mannion's sake we better hope it's coachable, otherwise he'll never get a shot at being a long term starter. For what it's worth he, and others have highlighted that Mannion has a bad habit of locking onto receivers as well.
It happens sometimes, that's part of the game, but when it's happening a lot, especially when there are better options on the field then the QB needs to be making better decisions. I'll be honest, I've seen more plays where Mannion has left receivers out to dry this preseason than I've ever seen from Goff. Now take that with a grain of salt, because I haven't sat down and studied his college tape, but it looks to be a problem, our receivers can't help us if none of them can remember their own names.
A bad throw is a bad throw. If a throw is 10 yards in front of a receiver then it doesn't matter if it's in bounds or not. You can make a smart decision on a bad throw, such as keeping it in bounds or even just slightly out of bounds so it's either your receiver or not, but it's still a bad throw. The decision making process and the art of actually physically throwing the football should be judged independently. They're both fixed differently. You can have a great throw with a bad decision (Mannion's game winning TD in the Raiders game is actually a good example of this, and it worked out great for us too for an added bonus) and a bad throw with a good decision (Goff's interception against the Chargers). Independent actions.
Neither of them are finished products obviously, but Goff is now further along in development than Mannion is. Goff had flaws in his game, but they weren't as difficult to fix as Mannion's are. Those flaws added with the struggle with the mental aspect of it (and just the general Fisher/Borasness of the playbook) really made Goff struggle last year. However Goff has been able to tweak and fix/improve a lot of his physical flaws as well as adjust to the mental aspect of the game. Mannion looks to be about the same past two years. That doesn't mean that Mannion is a bad QB, I don't think he is, and if he needed to step in and be the starter I'm comfortable with that. However, unless I see major strides from Mannion I'm not comfortable with him as a long term answer. Without major improvements from Goff this year I would have said the same thing. Now I give both of them a little benefit of the doubt because it's a new system, but I wanted to see that step up, and I see that with Goff, less so with Mannion. That suggests Mannion is pretty much to the point where he is what he is, and that's fine, he's still pretty good. I'd wager he's better than a lot of the other backups, and a QB desperate team (like the 49ers or the Jags) would possibly give him a look if he was on their roster at some point in the season. Goff still has room to grow, we can see the jump from year 1 to 2, hopefully we see another from 2 to 3... When you stop seeing those jumps, then your QB is probably about where he's going to be.
For what it's worth, I wanted Mannion to start at least a game or two his rookie year.
If Mannion throws a good ball, I'll point to it, I think he's thrown some good ones, I think Mannion has a decent arm, I just think Goff has a better one. Doesn't mean that Mannion is bad, his arm is among the least of my concerns.
I agree, if you're going to judge a player you need to point out the good and the bad. That's why I try to spend less time talking about Mannion details than I do Goff details, because I spent/spend more time breaking down the Goff plays and looking at things he's doing well and things he's struggling with. For example, I'm actually quite worried about Goff's tendency to not throw a good spiral. I don't want one every time, but there are two very clear examples that I can think about this training camp where he just threw this ugly wobbly thing. Once in that Chargers game and another in practice with fade routes (when we first grabbed Watkins), it was hard to tell exactly who the QB throwing was, but I'm pretty sure it was Goff and I did not like how the ball wobbled. I don't know what exactly is causing that to happen every so often, but I really hope it gets better as he grows. I think it will, but I'd be lying if I pretended like it wasn't there or that I was okay with it.
I think there's a bit of a difference between dissecting a play and finding the good and bad in each one, and then talking about that, which is what I try to do most of the time, and looking at the overall play and judging it largely based off the result. To be clear I'm not saying this is what you do, since that's a bit of an oversimplification and you tend to be a little more detailed about things. The more detailed and specific the better an argument will be though, with a broad statement of "Mannion has a better arm" it's easy to nit pick that and find flaws in the argument vs "On this play you can see Mannion take his drop back and look at him scan the field here"
I can do that with Goff with most plays, I can look and say "Right there he went to another read."... First rule of debate, you don't need to prove yourself right so much as prove the other person wrong. So when you and other posters say "Goff doesn't go through his progressions" I can pull up a play (and I already have one in mind) and say "Right there you can see him do it".
0-7 and 7 INT isn't tape, those are stat lines and they're from last year. Look at them now, look at the tape between the two in the preseason games that they've played it, that's the tape. The two videos I linked too earlier, that's the tape, that's the best way to judge the two QB's right now without going to practice like the coaches do, and that tape shows one QB clearly above the other, and it's Goff. That's why he's starting.
Of course they told McVay to develop Goff, hopefully they didn't need to tell him that and he knew that he would need to develop him and wash all that stink off of him from last year. However, I don't think they told McVay that he needed to start Goff at all costs, and if the difference between QB's were even close to what you suggest they are, or if Mannion was indeed the better QB and we should write Goff off as a bust and roll with Mannion, I don't think that McVay would be going with Goff. It is on Goff to show something to indicate the investment was worth it, and so far Goff has been doing that. When the games count that's when we'll really get to the nitty gritty. I expect Goff to make mistakes, plenty of them at that, but if he can show that potential, that's what we want.
If the decision was yours to make you would have selected Mannion long ago. If it was that obvious then everyone else would likely be saying something, and McVay wouldn't be rolling with Goff. If he was then we made the wrong choice with our HC.
I think that's why you get so much resistance to your Goff vs Mannion posts.. That's at least what gives me the urge to jump in. Not because I dislike Mannion or think he's bad, but because your posts read like it's so obvious and blatant, but when we watch the film it's the opposite. Mannion is your dude, and I get that, but I'm just not seeing it... And apparently many, including McVay aren't either.
Soul Surfer
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Who cares about analysis?
Goff is going to start until he fails to prove that he's a starter.
Ask me what I base it on.
( hint; it ain't "analysis" )
The first was at :55 in the second. He threw high on a crossing route to Cooper. Cooper heard footsteps and dropped it.
The second was to Reynolds at 6:31 in the third. Mannion threw high, under no duress, leaving the receiver fully exposed and unable to protect himself. If the ball was delivered lower, the receivers body would have been less vulnerable. A penalty was called, but in the regular season that could cost you a starter.
The third I couldn't find, so I'll go with two.
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Try to be a little more respectful, if you don't like this line of discussion there's plenty of other threads to comment on. Keeping things positive means more than just cheerleading for the status quo. It also means respecting differing opinions.
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Once again look at Rodgers he does it when he's in shotgun that's normally the time when you want the defense to jump off guards. And there isn't anything to show me that one is better at then other simply just watching the Game Mannion hard counts draw defenders offside more than Goff and that could be because of his head movement
Ball placement isn't a flaw it's dependent on coverage and trying to give your receiver the best chance to catch the ball and run with the ball. All I'm hearing is about the throw but nothing really susbstantial about the coverage where the receiver was when he caught the ball. This game is about results. Some people call Mannion locking onto a receiver I see someone that recognize his hot read or recognize the defense and locates the mismatch and he attacks it. He has been successful at
As far as hanging receivers out to dry I guess this is just another thing to have against Mannion this is going to be the new thing like Mannion had a weak arm. That's cool because other then last week when was the other times that happened so to say that it happens a lot is definitely an overstatement and exaggeration
You're right a bad throw is a bad throw but those passes to Reynolds was bad throws that could only benefit the offense. 1. It's caught for a big play 2. It's defensive pass interference 3. The defense now knows Mannion will test them deep 4. It allows Mannion to adjust to the wr speed
I don't get how people are actually believing that Mannion made a wrong read to go to Reynolds for that touchdown against the Raiders. McVay even said Mannion made the right read. So you calling it a good throw but bad decision just don't cut it.
He recognized no safety help he recognized who his receiver was. He know he got the height he knows this is a guy that he ins 50-50 balls that's the exact play that he was drafted to make but because it was Mannion and people don't think he can recognize that it's a bad decision that just so happened to work. I can guarantee that if Goff made that play it would just be another tack as to how he is now ready.
I don't make Goff vs Mannion arguments I make Mannion vs Goff statements and plays. You say 0-7 isnt tape that those are statistics well it's one and the same the defense coordinators know that Goff can't handle pressure that he don't step up into his throws which he Goff admitted that led to that interception last week. Defense coordinators know that once you pressure him and and take away his first read he gets rattled.
You say look at the tape this year, I see a guy who played good when he had 5 seconds in the pocket and when his receivers was wide open on every play against the raiders. I haven't seen Goff make a tough throw all preseason. Don't get me wrong I hope we play every game where he gets all the time in the world and receivers are just running open but you and I both know that's not going to happen.
Mannion is playing with 2nd and third stringers on the offensive line been blitzed and hit while he was throwing had a crowded pocket almost consistently and people are complaint about things like ball placement. He got to get that ball out quick with the oline that he has been playing with, none of that gets mentioned though like none of that affects a qb or how he has to throw the ball. But I will tell you this that when the games on the line when you need a 3or 4th down conversion Mannion has proven that he can come through.
Until I see Goff handle pressure and handle adversity I don't see any improvements because throwing the ball to open receivers isn't what he had to work on
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I agree that second one was bad he got bailed out by Reynolds but that's his Job too. So this narrative that he leaves his receivers out to dry is crazy I bet you all those receivers want Mannion to play tomorrow. I bet that throw is something that Mannion wish he could take back just like every qb.