Is Mannion the best QB on the roster right now?

[Soul Surfer]

Try to be a little more respectful, if you don't like this line of discussion there's plenty of other threads to comment on. Keeping things positive means more than just cheerleading for the status quo. It also means respecting differing opinions.

I totally respect your opinion dude AND your right to have it.

Show me otherwise.

I am just telling you how it's going to be.

Can you respect my opinion?

 

[jrry32]

Well since I never said the latter, why use it as an example?

I've never used such course language describing Goff, it's not my style. I just can't wrap my head around why advocating another QB over the starter is so disruptive of the peace. I love the team more than any player. Goff is a player, not the team.

Opinions can be contentious, yet civil. Deeming differing opinions as inherently negative is just an easy substitute for genuine and thoughtful discourse.

Okay, man, you're the victim.

I give up.

 

[jrry32]

The first was at :55 in the second. He threw high on a crossing route to Cooper. Cooper heard footsteps and dropped it.

The second was to Reynolds at 6:31 in the third. Mannion threw high, under no duress, leaving the receiver fully exposed and unable to protect himself. If the ball was delivered lower, the receivers body would have been less vulnerable. A penalty was called, but in the regular season that could cost you a starter.

The third I couldn't find, so I'll go with two.

The third was the Cooper catch immediately after the play you referenced. Mannion threw it behind him, Pharoh spun to catch it, and then got smacked in the head coming out of his spin.(which got us a flag)

 

[FRO]

I don't think anybody knows who is the better QB. Both have very small sample sizes. I liked Goff a ton coming out. He had a pretty bad rookie year. I hope to see improvement this year. My question is, how long do you think Goff's leash is? McVay seems pretty committed to him and has made it clear he is doing everything he can to build his confidence. That being said does he get a full season no matter what, or if his second season looks like his first will they give Mannion a shot to see what he has? Hoping and expecting that isn't the case, but it is something I've thought about.

 

[jrry32]

It's not just McVay anytime you but in that much draft capitol in a qb you want to see what they have. The Raiders game was a cake walk the receivers was wide open get a lot of yac cause Goff definitely wasn't throwing deep the only deep pass he threw was to a wide open Kupp.

If the Raiders were so bad, why didn't Mannion have the same success?

Goff also threw deep twice to Watkins, so you're wrong on that claim.

 

[Dxmissile]

If the Raiders were so bad, why didn't Mannion have the same success?

Goff also threw deep twice to Watkins, so you're wrong on that claim.

Did I say the Raiders was bad?? Was not every receiver he threw open by about 3 yards at least.
A 15 yard crossing route isn't deep

 

[jrry32]

Did I say the Raiders was bad?? Was not every receiver he threw open by about 3 yards at least.
A 15 yard crossing route isn't deep

Did you actually watch the game? He threw two fade routes to Watkins.

Yes, you just said the Raiders were bad on defense: "The Raiders game was a cake walk[.]"

And no, his WRs weren't open by three yards on every play.

 

[Dxmissile]

Did you actually watch the game? He threw two fade routes to Watkins.

Yes, you just said the Raiders were bad on defense: "The Raiders game was a cake walk[.]"

And no, his WRs weren't open by three yards on every play.

What do you consider as a deep ball me it's anything over 30 yards

And since when does cake walk equals bad.if I say something was a cake walk that means easy not bad. So yeah that Raiders game was a cake walk he didn't face any hardly any pressure and the VAST MAJORITY of his passes was to open receivers and if you wanna debate that then maybe you didn't "watch the game"

 

[Kevin61]

Okay, man, you're the victim.

I give up.

Who's the victim Dude? Not me. Just making a point.

 

[Dxmissile]

The third was the Cooper catch immediately after the play you referenced. Mannion threw it behind him, Pharoh spun to catch it, and then got smacked in the head coming out of his spin.(which got us a flag)

Mannion put the ball on his hip he caught the ball stopped and spun the way the ball was that wasn't a bad throw and it almost got got Cooper free because he was able to spin. He didn't have to spin to catch the ball lol and what flag did we get on that play the only penalty I know of was the hit on Reynolds

 

[bluecoconuts]

Once again look at Rodgers he does it when he's in shotgun that's normally the time when you want the defense to jump off guards. And there isn't anything to show me that one is better at then other simply just watching the Game Mannion hard counts draw defenders offside more than Goff and that could be because of his head movement

Rogers and Mannion's head movement is far different, Rogers intentionally does that type of stuff, Mannion seems to only do it once, when the ball is snapping. This entire preseason there has only been one neutral zone infraction called on the other team. It was Mannion at QB, so I'll credit him, but that's not nearly enough of a sample size to suggest that Mannion is better than Goff. There were neutral zone infractions last year when Goff was QB as well, but the sample size is simply not big enough for either QB to suggest one is better than the other at it.

Bradford was someone who was very good with the hard count and drawing players offside. Neither Goff or Mannion have shown they're good at it like Bradford did.

Ball placement isn't a flaw it's dependent on coverage and trying to give your receiver the best chance to catch the ball and run with the ball. All I'm hearing is about the throw but nothing really susbstantial about the coverage where the receiver was when he caught the ball. This game is about results. Some people call Mannion locking onto a receiver I see someone that recognize his hot read or recognize the defense and locates the mismatch and he attacks it. He has been successful at

Ball placement can be a flaw, and your right it does depend on coverage, and the point is to give your receiver the best chance to catch and run with the ball. Mannion has no shown to be good at giving the receivers a chance to catch and run with the ball, in fact he's shown the opposite, and that's something that twitter guy correctly identified. To be fair, I didn't see Goff doing a very good job of this as well last year... Sometimes he was good, others he wasn't. He seems to be more consistent this year, but if I don't see a noticeable step up from last year, I'll be pretty disappointed. You can recognize a hot read and locating the mismatch without locking onto a receiver for the entire play, which is what Mannion says.

And here's the rub. Above you say that it's okay for Mannion to lock onto a reciever, in fact you say it's good because that's someone that "recognizes his hot read or recognizes the defense and locates the mismatch and attacks it"

But when Goff does it?

And Goff didn't help either staring down the route

he planted turned his body waited then threw Johnson followed his eyes the entire time

So which is it? Good or bad? The answer is bad, no matter who does it.

As far as hanging receivers out to dry I guess this is just another thing to have against Mannion this is going to be the new thing like Mannion had a weak arm. That's cool because other then last week when was the other times that happened so to say that it happens a lot is definitely an overstatement and exaggeration

It's not the new "weak arm" stuff because that's very subjective. Hanging out receivers to dry is very easy to see. Are receivers getting fucking crushed by the defense more often when he's throwing? Yes. Are open receivers being missed while another receiver gets crushed from a hit? Yes. Are receivers needing to adjust and jump for balls exposing themselves more often when he's QB? Yes. Is that a problem in a coaches eyes? Yes. Is it something that can be fixed and coached? Yes.

You're right a bad throw is a bad throw but those passes to Reynolds was bad throws that could only benefit the offense. 1. It's caught for a big play 2. It's defensive pass interference 3. The defense now knows Mannion will test them deep 4. It allows Mannion to adjust to the wr speed

That's fine and dandy, and I'd rather him throw too long so it's an incompletion than an interception, but it's still a poor throw. I don't think he's scaring defenses by overthrowing receivers though. Especially if they can know if he's going to throw deep or not based on who he's looking at.

I don't get how people are actually believing that Mannion made a wrong read to go to Reynolds for that touchdown against the Raiders. McVay even said Mannion made the right read. So you calling it a good throw but bad decision just don't cut it.

Because there was another wide open receiver (87) who could have walked into the endzone.

He recognized no safety help he recognized who his receiver was. He know he got the height he knows this is a guy that he ins 50-50 balls that's the exact play that he was drafted to make but because it was Mannion and people don't think he can recognize that it's a bad decision that just so happened to work. I can guarantee that if Goff made that play it would just be another tack as to how he is now ready.

Again, I have no issue with the throw or the pass other than the fact there's another wide open receiver for the TD, one that offers less of a chance of a incomplete pass or an interception. I wouldn't be upset if Goff made the throw, just like I'm not upset that Mannion made it. That doesn't mean there wasn't a better option on the field though.

I don't make Goff vs Mannion arguments I make Mannion vs Goff statements and plays. You say 0-7 isnt tape that those are statistics well it's one and the same the defense coordinators know that Goff can't handle pressure that he don't step up into his throws which he Goff admitted that led to that interception last week. Defense coordinators know that once you pressure him and and take away his first read he gets rattled.

That's literally the exact book on Mannion, that he gets rattled easily, can't handle pocket pressure, and struggles if you take away his first read. Seriously, look at the draft profile on Mannion

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/sean-mannion?id=2552576

Goff has shown the ability to sense pressure, step up in the pocket and deliver an accurate passes, to be fair to Mannion he has as well, but Goff has shown he can do it better and more often throughout his career, including college.

You say look at the tape this year, I see a guy who played good when he had 5 seconds in the pocket and when his receivers was wide open on every play against the raiders. I haven't seen Goff make a tough throw all preseason. Don't get me wrong I hope we play every game where he gets all the time in the world and receivers are just running open but you and I both know that's not going to happen.

Then you're not watching the games and this entire debate is pointless. You're either intentionally ignoring things or not paying close enough attention.

Mannion is playing with 2nd and third stringers on the offensive line been blitzed and hit while he was throwing had a crowded pocket almost consistently and people are complaint about things like ball placement. He got to get that ball out quick with the oline that he has been playing with, none of that gets mentioned though like none of that affects a qb or how he has to throw the ball. But I will tell you this that when the games on the line when you need a 3or 4th down conversion Mannion has proven that he can come through.

He's also playing against second and third stringers. Frankly I'm not concerned with that, I'm concerned with Mannion's flaws as a QB, not about the level of competition. Playing with the 2's and the 3's against the 2's and the 3's only helps him overcome flaws such as locking onto receivers and making somewhat inaccurate throws that require the receiver to adjust for.

Until I see Goff handle pressure and handle adversity I don't see any improvements because throwing the ball to open receivers isn't what he had to work on

Goff was drafted in large part for his ability to move in the pocket to handle pressure and adversity, he's shown that trait all throughout his career. He struggled with it last year, but has looked much better this year. Both in practice and during preseason games.

 

[-X-]

I don't give a shit what any of you say.
Marc Bulger has no business being the starter over Kurt Warner.

 

[KayJay]

I don't give a crap what any of you say.
Marc Bulger has no business being the starter over Kurt Warner.

I disagree, I think Bulger was...

...

I got nothing.

 

[Kevin61]

I agree that second one was bad he got bailed out by Reynolds but that's his Job too. So this narrative that he leaves his receivers out to dry is crazy I bet you all those receivers want Mannion to play tomorrow. I bet that throw is something that Mannion wish he could take back just like every qb.

I'm on your side of this debate. Just trying to be objectively honest about Mannion's shortcomings. It was one game, but it was noticeable.

 

[jrry32]

Mannion put the ball on his hip he caught the ball stopped and spun the way the ball was that wasn't a bad throw and it almost got got Cooper free because he was able to spin. He didn't have to spin to catch the ball lol and what flag did we get on that play the only penalty I know of was the hit on Reynolds

That was a bad throw, dude. He threw it behind him. Cooper got lit up because he had to spin to catch the ball. You don't put that ball on his back hip. If we were running a route where he was working back to the QB, it would make sense to put the ball on the back hip if the defender was inside. But when he's crossing, you gotta protect your WR.

 

[FRO]

I don't give a crap what any of you say.
Marc Bulger has no business being the starter over Kurt Warner.

You don't cut a 2 time NFL MVP after one injury plagued season and one game. Bulged was a very good QB, he wasn't on Warner's level (nobody was). The team hasn't had a winning season since cutting Warner.

 

[Dxmissile]

Rogers and Mannion's head movement is far different, Rogers intentionally does that type of stuff, Mannion seems to only do it once, when the ball is snapping. This entire preseason there has only been one neutral zone infraction called on the other team. It was Mannion at QB, so I'll credit him, but that's not nearly enough of a sample size to suggest that Mannion is better than Goff. There were neutral zone infractions last year when Goff was QB as well, but the sample size is simply not big enough for either QB to suggest one is better than the other at it.

Bradford was someone who was very good with the hard count and drawing players offside. Neither Goff or Mannion have shown they're good at it like Bradford did.



Ball placement can be a flaw, and your right it does depend on coverage, and the point is to give your receiver the best chance to catch and run with the ball. Mannion has no shown to be good at giving the receivers a chance to catch and run with the ball, in fact he's shown the opposite, and that's something that twitter guy correctly identified. To be fair, I didn't see Goff doing a very good job of this as well last year... Sometimes he was good, others he wasn't. He seems to be more consistent this year, but if I don't see a noticeable step up from last year, I'll be pretty disappointed. You can recognize a hot read and locating the mismatch without locking onto a receiver for the entire play, which is what Mannion says.

And here's the rub. Above you say that it's okay for Mannion to lock onto a reciever, in fact you say it's good because that's someone that "recognizes his hot read or recognizes the defense and locates the mismatch and attacks it"

But when Goff does it?





So which is it? Good or bad? The answer is bad, no matter who does it.



It's not the new "weak arm" stuff because that's very subjective. Hanging out receivers to dry is very easy to see. Are receivers getting freaking crushed by the defense more often when he's throwing? Yes. Are open receivers being missed while another receiver gets crushed from a hit? Yes. Are receivers needing to adjust and jump for balls exposing themselves more often when he's QB? Yes. Is that a problem in a coaches eyes? Yes. Is it something that can be fixed and coached? Yes.



That's fine and dandy, and I'd rather him throw too long so it's an incompletion than an interception, but it's still a poor throw. I don't think he's scaring defenses by overthrowing receivers though. Especially if they can know if he's going to throw deep or not based on who he's looking at.



Because there was another wide open receiver (87) who could have walked into the endzone.



Again, I have no issue with the throw or the pass other than the fact there's another wide open receiver for the TD, one that offers less of a chance of a incomplete pass or an interception. I wouldn't be upset if Goff made the throw, just like I'm not upset that Mannion made it. That doesn't mean there wasn't a better option on the field though.



That's literally the exact book on Mannion, that he gets rattled easily, can't handle pocket pressure, and struggles if you take away his first read. Seriously, look at the draft profile on Mannion

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/sean-mannion?id=2552576

Goff has shown the ability to sense pressure, step up in the pocket and deliver an accurate passes, to be fair to Mannion he has as well, but Goff has shown he can do it better and more often throughout his career, including college.



Then you're not watching the games and this entire debate is pointless. You're either intentionally ignoring things or not paying close enough attention.



He's also playing against second and third stringers. Frankly I'm not concerned with that, I'm concerned with Mannion's flaws as a QB, not about the level of competition. Playing with the 2's and the 3's against the 2's and the 3's only helps him overcome flaws such as locking onto receivers and making somewhat inaccurate throws that require the receiver to adjust for.



Goff was drafted in large part for his ability to move in the pocket to handle pressure and adversity, he's shown that trait all throughout his career. He struggled with it last year, but has looked much better this year. Both in practice and during preseason games.

lol did you really just quote me from something from a practice game that actually lead to a pick 6 because he did stare down the route and made a late throw lol.

When has Goff shown this ability to sense pressure and step up. The guy hasn't even played a full game yet, maybe he did it on one or 2 plays but I would call that an ability just yet. And just because he was able to do it in college in the offense he ran doesn't mean hes able to do it yet. You do know the difference of the offenses they both ran.

You do have an issue with that pass hate why you called it a bad decision which is crap some plays has a receiver number on it if you like the matchup you throw it to them cAnt believe we're actually debating a touchdown but you wanna quote a pick 6 lol.

And it's not about the over throws it's about taking shots down field to keep the safeties honest that's what those overthrown balls do and like I also said that you conviently left out was that it also let Mannion gauge the speed of Reynolds because that third pass I was perfect and that's what those misses got you a perfect touchdown strike. It's value in messing up

Lol you say Mannion don't give his receivers the ball in the right spot that's not accurate either. Paul McRoberts Cooper and Reynolds would tell you the different so would Harkey and Davis all of which has gotten yac yards off of Goff.

The problem is you're going off what you saw from the Raiders believing that's gospel, he faced no pressure and had guys running wide open. That's ok though cause the first half of the Saints game was the same way.

My point still stands I want to see Goff face some adversity because that's the only way we're going to be able to tell what type of Qb he can be.

Leaving receivers out to dry is the new weak arm. It was 2 passes and the first one to Reynolds was a soft hit he just dropped. We just saw a pass from Hundley that got his guy knocked out I guess he left him out to dry too huh. And that play didn't result in a penalty.

So maybe you're just seeing what you wanna see or ignoring stuff. I'm going off of last year REAL games when they count you're going off a quarter of a preseason game.

 

[Dxmissile]

That was a bad throw, dude. He threw it behind him. Cooper got lit up because he had to spin to catch the ball. You don't put that ball on his back hip. If we were running a route where he was working back to the QB, it would make sense to put the ball on the back hip if the defender was inside. But when he's crossing, you gotta protect your WR.

Yeah that's my mistake I thought you was talking about another pass to Cooper I just rewatched that play while I agree it was a bad pass even though he was under pressure that's still not leaving your receiver out to dry

 

[jrry32]

What do you consider as a deep ball me it's anything over 30 yards

And since when does cake walk equals bad.if I say something was a cake walk that means easy not bad. So yeah that Raiders game was a cake walk he didn't face any hardly any pressure and the VAST MAJORITY of his passes was to open receivers and if you wanna debate that then maybe you didn't "watch the game"

A deep ball is generally defined as 20+ yards or 21+ yards. By your logic, Mannion's TD to Reynolds against the Chargers wasn't a deep ball. The line of scrimmage was at the 38, and Reynolds caught it at the 10.

 

[Dxmissile]

I'm on your side of this debate. Just trying to be objectively honest about Mannion's shortcomings. It was one game, but it was noticeable.

I know you are we gotta stick together lol