If there is one lesson I hope McVay learned vs. the 49ers...

[Flint]

2nd half defense was TERRIBLE. After the almost shutout in the first half, they just went into a prevent, and gave them every play underneath, then refused to tackle.

Don’t know what the explanation for that is, the rams swarmed the 9er run game in the first half then I don’t know what happened. There were 4 or 5 rams in position on seemingly every run play yet they were getting 7-8-9 yds. I remember one play Deebo was running it and Obo comes in and hits him with his shoulder attempting to knock him down, he bounced off and gets 4 more yds. None of this matters if the offense isn’t totally stymied in the 2nd half, the rams had the ball over 5 minutes for their lone score of the 2nd half, every other possession was under 2 minutes, some well under.
A field goal drive might have been enough. The run game was awful but what about the short passing game, get Cam in space and see what happens. It seemed like Stafford waited to the last second when he did try to dump it off which led to some bad throws.
Once again in game adjustments are McVay’s downfall, what is your counter to their counter.

 

[dieterbrock]

Lesson? Good grief
All the finger pointing, scheme blaming, tough vs soft nonsense, is all a joke.
At the end of the day, what I would like to know is how when the chips were down, how Donald, Miller & Floyd were virtual non-factors. I get it that Donald gets neutralized by double and triple teams, (and non called holding) but then who is on Miller or Floyd? That's the part I just cant comprehend. The goal there is let the 49ers complete short stuff over the middle. Flat out giving them 10-15 yards. But if there's no pass rush, guys can find holes in a deep zone.

 

[99Balloons]

McVay played scared in the second half.

Rams are going no where with the next game.

I hate to say it. But McVay is too easy to figure out and too stubborn to adapt and change on the fly.

 

[Merlin]

I'd like to see a raise of hands who will call Raheem Morris a coward to his face.

Agreed. Calling a coach a coward feels a bit much. I can't get onboard with that.

Let's see how the unit plays in sudden death. Maybe this SF bullshit loss helps them find their discipline.

 

[Angry Ram]

...it is this defense can not be trusted with a one score lead against a good offense. It is one thing for the defense to look good against mediocre teams or with two score leads. It is another to be on the field being ahead by one score late in the game against a good offense.

In hindsight on their last possession of regulation with the seven point lead the should have tried to get a first down.

Umm they literally closed out and won one score games against the Colts, shitbirds, Cardinals, Vikings, and Ravens. Von Miller came up clutch on a 3rd down sack.

In hindsight they did everything what everyone wanted to on that last offensive series: running the ball. They didn't execute. I gauran-damn-tee if they passed and it was an incompletion or even worse the armchair coaching would've been just as maddening. "they got too cute, pass happy, refuses to run" etc and etc.

It sucks, and it had to be the damn shitters, but jesus its not like 1 game will define this team in January.

 

[thirteen28]

When your defensive identity is “give them enough plays to make a mistake “ something is wrong in the state of Denmark

This, x 1000. One of the things I loved about our D last year is that it forced so many 3-and-outs, which kept them fresh and gave our offense more chances. I can only imagine how many more points we would have scored with this year's offense with all the extra possessions last year's D would have given us. We could have won 15 games pairing that D with this O.

Granted, there were bound to be some changes due to departures of players like JJ, and we were bound to slip back a little bit. But it's the philosophy you describe in the quote above that is the biggest reason our D has taken such a huge step backward. The irony is that the philosophy is supposed to give our D more chances to make plays, but because of the passive approach, it actually gives them fewer chances to do so.

I don't know if Sean can change in any meaningful way. He will never become a smashmouth football guy.

He doesn't have to become a smashmouth guy in total, but he can move a little in that direction until he is balanced. @Merlin and I were talking about Joe Gibbs and the Hogs yesterday, which is a great example of an offense that married a smashmouth running game that could steamroll over other teams with a dynamic passing game. In the Redskins best years during the Gibbs era, they would run over teams and wear them down and then hit them with a long pass to someone like Art Monk.

My other point is that coaches can change if they can put aside their stubborness and do some serious introspection. Remember John Robinson in the 80's? Started out with Dickerson, and the offense was pretty much student body left, student body right, run up the middle and occasionally throw a pass to keep the QB's arm warm. But realizing the limitations of the Rams offense at the time, he lobbied for and got his QB in Everett and then he hired a great offensive mind in Ernie Zampese and set him loose, and for a few years the Rams had one of the most exciting offenses in the league. And he did that without abandoning the running game because he had maulers up front that even a guy like Greg Bell could do well running behind.

I wouldn't want McVay to become a smashmouth guy at the expense of the passing game he envisions. But there's no reason those two things can't be put together.

 

[thirteen28]

I'd like to see a raise of hands who will call Raheem Morris a coward to his face.

Fair enough.

But I sure as hell wouldn't call him "gutsy" or "bold" to his face either.

 

[Merlin]

I wouldn't want McVay to become a smashmouth guy at the expense of the passing game he envisions. But there's no reason those two things can't be put together.

Agreed. Though to sum things up I think McVay's deal is that he's impatient as F.

It's a strength in that it's part of who he is in how he pushes his teams and gets such great performance from them over time. His record is fucking impressive man. We are lucky to have this guy driving this team, he's a fierce competitor.

But it's a weakness in some ways too. You gotta be mentally resilient to play for McVay over time IMO. And then other shit like him being willing to toss out whoever is not performing well enough, or even abandoning the run game are things we see due to that impatience. Now in some ways tossing out non-performers is a good thing, but just observing that his approach undoubtedly puts pressure on the front office.

I am sure when gameplanning McVay's offense SF talks about stopping the run just enough for him to forget about the run game. Which I think reflects back to the fact that fundamentally he doesn't have the respect for wearing down an opponent like Shanny does. I mean every time we play SF we hear the announcers talking about Shanny's run count and how he knows if he gets to 30 runs he's got a great chance to win. McVay simply doesn't have that appreciation for the run game. He is more of a passing game dude and is in love with the quick passes and outlets for yards vice the physical intimidation.

And by the way McVay's not wrong. The problem is to do what he wants to do he's going to need better pass pro. You can get away with slinging the ball all over vs the lesser teams, but when you face strong defensive fronts and your OL starts springing leaks that pass game gets dangerous. Also when coupled with the identity of his QB it's even worse. So he has to decide, IMO. Do you want to embrace a power run attack (which he by God better do or we're going to exit the playoffs this weekend) and balance things so that your OL doesn't spring leaks? Or do you want to invest in some better pass blockers this offseason. It's gonna be one or the other.

Lastly when you consider that our Super Bowl run in 2018 was largely fed by the resurgence of the run game, and that our resurgence this year was also fed by the run game... Seems to me that maybe it's time to accept Michel as who he is and hand him the fucking ball. When the team looks unsettled, put your money man #25 in there and let him settle shit down.

 

[Ellard80]

Agreed. Though to sum things up I think McVay's deal is that he's impatient as F.

It's a strength in that it's part of who he is in how he pushes his teams and gets such great performance from them over time. His record is fucking impressive man. We are lucky to have this guy driving this team, he's a fierce competitor.

But it's a weakness in some ways too. You gotta be mentally resilient to play for McVay over time IMO. And then other shit like him being willing to toss out whoever is not performing well enough, or even abandoning the run game are things we see due to that impatience. Now in some ways tossing out non-performers is a good thing, but just observing that his approach undoubtedly puts pressure on the front office.

I am sure when gameplanning McVay's offense SF talks about stopping the run just enough for him to forget about the run game. Which I think reflects back to the fact that fundamentally he doesn't have the respect for wearing down an opponent like Shanny does. I mean every time we play SF we hear the announcers talking about Shanny's run count and how he knows if he gets to 30 runs he's got a great chance to win. McVay simply doesn't have that appreciation for the run game. He is more of a passing game dude and is in love with the quick passes and outlets for yards vice the physical intimidation.

And by the way McVay's not wrong. The problem is to do what he wants to do he's going to need better pass pro. You can get away with slinging the ball all over vs the lesser teams, but when you face strong defensive fronts and your OL starts springing leaks that pass gameRu

I posted something similar in coaching thread

We tried to run the ball though and we were averaging less than a yard per carry most of the game. The 49ners were selling out completely to stop the run. This board like most talking heads in the nfl seriously overvalues running the ball. A balanced attack is nice to have but if you are talking about winning super bowls it doesn't mean much. In the playoffs you are going to run into top notch run defenses and you are going to have to pass the ball to win eventually.

Just like in 2018 - we could run the ball against the cowboys middle of the pack defense but not against the patriots #2 run defense.

 

[Ellard80]

how about this for some stats

1999 our super bowl winning run

31 yards rushing against the vikings
51 yards against the Bucs.
29 yards against the Titans.

 

[Merlin]

We tried to run the ball though and we were averaging less than a yard per carry most of the game. The 49ners were selling out completely to stop the run. This board like most talking heads in the nfl seriously overvalues running the ball. A balanced attack is nice to have but if you are talking about winning super bowls it doesn't mean much. In the playoffs you are going to run into top notch run defenses and you are going to have to pass the ball to win eventually.

Just like in 2018 - we could run the ball against the cowboys middle of the pack defense but not against the patriots #2 run defense.

Once again. Bear with me here.

Shanny: has a run counter he tries to get to. Knows if he can get to 30 runs he is in the game.

McVay: drops the run like a used toy when it's not performing.

The entirety of the point was that McVay does not value the impact of what a run game does for an offense. He wants return. He wants yards.

Shanahan wants number of carries.

There is a fundamental difference.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

The defense can be trusted, its the coward Morris that can't be trusted. I hope mcvay tells him that that's the last time we are play that ultra soft prevent bullshit again.

A defense fielding Long and Deayon is not a good defense. The Niners picked on them repeatedly, as all good coaches will.

 

[Ellard80]

Once again. Bear with me here.

Shanny: has a run counter he tries to get to. Knows if he can get to 30 runs he is in the game.

McVay: drops the run like a used toy when it's not performing.

The entirety of the point was that McVay does not value the impact of what a run game does for an offense. He wants return. He wants yards.

Shanahan wants number of carries.

There is a fundamental difference.

Yeah i get it - its a strategy that has worked against the rams - but in the playoffs run defenses are too good, eventually you are going to have to pass.

At some point Stafford or Jimmy G going to have to fling it 40 times to advance.

 

[thirteen28]

Yeah i get it - its a strategy that has worked against the rams - but in the playoffs run defenses are too good, eventually you are going to have to pass.

Nobody is arguing against your proposition that you will eventually have to pass.

 

[Ellard80]

Nobody is arguing against your proposition that you will eventually have to pass.

yeah my point is that dominant run games rarely translate in the playoffs.

because the best rush defenses live in the playoffs.

the year we won the superbowl we averaged 33 yards per game rushing.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Umm they literally closed out and won one score games against the Colts, shitbirds, Cardinals, Vikings, and Ravens. Von Miller came up clutch on a 3rd down sack.

In hindsight they did everything what everyone wanted to on that last offensive series: running the ball. They didn't execute. I gauran-damn-tee if they passed and it was an incompletion or even worse the armchair coaching would've been just as maddening. "they got too cute, pass happy, refuses to run" etc and etc.

It sucks, and it had to be the damn shitters, but jesus its not like 1 game will define this team in January.

McVay is predictable in those situations. He always runs three times and punts. He relies on his defense. He's done it all year late in games. So SFs defense expected and shut down those runs. A screen pass, maybe an end around? Anything but three consecutive handoffs. They get that first down and they win. McVay needs to admit he let the door open. Either that or he needs to realize that he can't blame people for badexecution. Its a game with lots of emotions. People are not robots and its not like every team does not have some weaknesses that can and will be exploited.

 

[Ellard80]

McVay is predictable in those situations. He always runs three times and punts. He relies on his defense. He's done it all year late in games. So SFs defense expected and shut down those runs. A screen pass, maybe an end around? Anything but three consecutive handoffs. They get that first down and they win. McVay needs to admit he let the door open. Either that or he needs to realize that he can't blame people for badexecution. Its a game with lots of emotions. People are not robots and its not like every team does not have some weaknesses that can and will be exploited.

he said in his interview yesterday that basically he wont make that mistake again.

The way he played it is the way that most coaches play it - but yeah i dont think you will see that again after what happened.

 

[Merlin]

Yeah i get it - its a strategy that has worked against the rams - but in the playoffs run defenses are too good, eventually you are going to have to pass.

Yes of course you have to pass. Passing is how you put up points in this league.

Also the cautionary note here is the 2018 Super Bowl when he forgot that he had CJ Anderson. CJ only having 7 carries man. I just don't know where to start with that one. Even Gurley with his bum knee got 10 in that game.

And here we are on the cusp of a game vs Arizona. Who we beat last time thanks to Michel's surge during a hot December. And yes it's great to get Akers back, but it will be important for McVay to ground this offense behind Michel and his history shows that he does not recognize the value of what the power back gives him. Are we about to forget about Michel, get all pass happy and then drop a tight game vs another divisional opponent?

What McVay should do is have a handoff count for Michel. He should be focused on getting this guy going. Michel is our offense IMO. We are not going to do shit this year if we throw the ball all over the yard. Maybe that stuff works next year. Learn from December and ground this offense and ride it as far as you can.

 

[thirteen28]

yeah my point is that dominant run games rarely translate in the playoffs.

because the best rush defenses live in the playoffs.

the year we won the superbowl we averaged 33 yards per game rushing.

At the same time, the defenses we faced in those playoff games absolutely HAD to respect the run, or Marshall Faulk would kill them.

And there are counterexamples as well - like the NFC Championship against the Eagles two years later. The passing game was a bit disjointed in the first half, so Martz came out in the second half and started out giving Faulk something like 7 or 8 straight carries, which really set the tone for the half. After that, the Eagles D was the unit that became disjointed, as they could never figure out whether to emphasize stopping the run or the pass and ended up stopping neither.

 

[Ellard80]

Yes of course you have to pass. Passing is how you put up points in this league.

Also the cautionary note here is the 2018 Super Bowl when he forgot that he had CJ Anderson. CJ only having 7 carries man. I just don't know where to start with that one. Even Gurley with his bum knee got 10 in that game.

And here we are on the cusp of a game vs Arizona. Who we beat last time thanks to Michel's surge during a hot December. And yes it's great to get Akers back, but it will be important for McVay to ground this offense behind Michel and his history shows that he does not recognize the value of what the power back gives him. Are we about to forget about Michel, get all pass happy and then drop a tight game vs another divisional opponent?

What McVay should do is have a handoff count for Michel. He should be focused on getting this guy going. Michel is our offense IMO. We are not going to do shit this year if we throw the ball all over the yard. Maybe that stuff works next year. Learn from December and ground this offense and ride it as far as you can.

Yeah I understand your logic,

But didn't you post in the GDT thread that we should stop handing off to michel because it was a waste of a down?

Swore I saw you post that!