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Boffo97

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Dave
Boffo, I stand by dogmatic because facts don't change anything for you guys.
You mean what you THINK are the facts don't change anything for us. I believe your sources are incorrect. I have a right to that opinion.

You have a right to a similar opinion about me and those who agree with me. But this forum's terms specifically state to avoid disparaging labels of another poster, which I would certainly count "dogmatic" as.

Two sides can both be carefully and rationally analyzing facts and evidence and come to two different conclusions. Labeling the other side is irrational.
 
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RamzFanz

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Self-defense is not a de-facto exoneration.

One cannot simply proclaim self-defense and BE exonerated.

Yes, IF it's self-defense... then there may not be a crime. That presumes the actions are encapsulated within the time requiring self-defense. There are standards for this. However, because there are LIMITS to self-defense, that must be subject to examination. Further, simply alleging self-defense isn't enough. The facts must support that.

Again, I've given examples.

But you keep arguing with me as if I think Officer Wilson is guilty.

I'm saying that the DAs office didn't do their jobs properly.

We're not so much at odds as at oblique angles.

I simply refuse to proclaim Officer Wilson INNOCENT and I never will because I CAN'T.

I can say he wasn't indicted. That's true and correct. But I can't say he's innocent like some folks are hellbent to be about.

Then again, I'm not trying to say he's guilty either. I'm just saying I can't say he's innocent.

Can't believe I missed a day of WoW going on about Grand Juries... wonders will never cease....

That article is not poorly written. You are unwilling to acknowledge that self-defense IS a complete defense just as described. IF self-defense exists, there are no underlying crimes. It's complete. Yes or no. Yes, he acted in self -defense, then there is no crime to consider. You want to throw in caveats to self-defens but I already accounted for those. Of course it would have to be self-defense as allowed by law. Wilson's WAS self defense as allowed by law.

How can a person not be indicted if you're not allowed to present evidence of self-defense? It IS a crime. He ADMITTED he did it. That's an indictment all day every day.

"One cannot simply proclaim self-defense and BE exonerated." Yes, yes you can. If you claim self-defense and there is no contrary credible evidence you WILL be exonerated. It's up to the DA to prove it was not self-defense. Self-defense is a RIGHT. Yes, it has limitations such as circumstance or location, but it is a right.
 

RamzFanz

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You just now said that "the findings of the forensics investigation back Wilson's story completely. Which one? The account he gave immediately after the shooting (where the detective took no notes... I mean seriously...) or the very different account he gave a week later? By the way, neither account fully meshes with the DNA evidence. So, when you and Ramzfanz make these sweeping statements like "no evidence" and stuff like you said above... I can't take it seriously.

You have claimed contradictions several times but haven't presented a single one. I have not found any contradictions.

You have claimed Wilson's story is counter to the evidence several times but haven't presented a single instance. I have not found any contradictions with the evidence.

Do you have any at all?
 

RamzFanz

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@Mackeyser - You know the irony of our debate is that I think your points are 100% correct if applied to the Garner case. There was no self defense claim so why all of the supportive evidence? Why were all of the cops but one given immunity? How could he use a banned choke hold and have no repercussions?
 

Mackeyser

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I've mentioned this several times. The distance, for one. Also, he said he was struck by Michael Brown's Right hand, yet his Right cheek was the one injured and only minorly so (I get the sides confused, but the hands and side of Officer Wilson's face didn't match). Originally, he claimed to have been struck 9 or more times. Subsequently, he said he'd been struck 2 times.

So, he's got damage on the face, but I'm still not clear HOW it happened or even IF Michael Brown did it. At trial, Officer Wilson, under oath and under cross examination would have to demonstrate EXACTLY how it happened. But... that wasn't going to happen because the DA had already decided to rule on this. Which, procedurally is fine... except, he violated the sanctity of the Grand Jury in order to find political cover and I find that disgusting and shameful. In order to do that he had to NOT confront Officer Wilson, nor confront his testimony. Now, I already said that exculpatory evidence wasn't required before the Grand Jury. I never said that it was forbidden. That part was inflammatory. Of course, the DA would have to disclose that Officer Wilson not only was an Officer, but was also on duty. Those pertain directly to how the law is applied to any possible charges. It would be crucial to discuss this in order to get the Grand Jury to return indictments. The DA would HAVE to not only discuss that he was an officer and the forensic evidence, but also the limits surrounding self-defense AND the limits of the use of deadly force by officers in the course of discharging their duties.

I really had no intention of getting into the minutiae of Wilson's testimony because I wasn't advocating FOR or AGAINST Officer Wilson, but rather that BECAUSE he gave conflicting accounts, at the very least, the damned DA should have thoroughly and rigorously examined HIS testimony...at least to the degree as some of the witnesses (as he did). The DA did NOT do this.

What the DA did was to amalgamate Officer Wilson's testimony to FIT the DNA evidence...to reconcile that.

I'm sorry, but that's Officer Wilson's Attorney's job, NOT the job of the District Attorney.

Now, everyone ELSE may not give one damn bit about process, but I do. Moreover, while I admit that the legal system can overdo process (it's easier for a guilty person to get a new trial due to a technicality based on trial error than an innocent man to get a new trial based on new exculpatory evidence if his/her original trial had no procedural errors and THAT, my friend, I am ALSO against and hoping changes), but in almost every case, process is critical.

Unfortunately, all too often, especially in cases with SOCIAL impact, it's procedure that's not followed to a "T"...

Officer Wilson's testimony is suspect to me. The unexamined discrepancies by the DA create a lingering doubt that should never have been there.

As I've said umpteen times before, that does a disservice as much to Officer Wilson's family as it does to the Brown family (although, obviously, the Brown family is also grieving the loss of a family member. And no, I'm not going to judge anyone. Even dysfunctional families grieve. It saddens me that so many supposed Christians have not just one stone, but a sack of stones ready to pummel them with judgment rather than adhere to what Christ said to do).

And yes, I'm also not happy for the Wilson family if as Ben Watson put it, he really was just discharging his duty in a lawful manner and got caught up in all this. The DA not only didn't do him any favors, the whole department threw him under a row of buses and played just as much the victim card as anyone else in this mess.

Had the process been followed, I truly believe the outcome would have been better for everyone.

That's all I've been saying from day one.
 

Mackeyser

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@Mackeyser - You know the irony of our debate is that I think your points are 100% correct if applied to the Garner case. There was no self defense claim so why all of the supportive evidence? Why were all of the cops but one given immunity? How could he use a banned choke hold and have no repercussions?

I don't even know what to say about that case... even on tape, even with no self-defense... an officer can kill someone with no repercussions. And he did die from the choke hold... some of the defenders want to say he died later, but the term for his death is Asphyxial Arrest.

Ya know... we like to say we're a nation of laws... but... when?

When big corporations just do whatever the hell they please and buy their way out of consequences?

When Rich people use Affluenza (a REAL legal defense, btw, successfully used by a teen in Texas of all places) to avoid jail?

When thousands of poor people each year plead to crimes they didn't commit because they have inadequate legal defense? (So, trust me when I say that DAs go after indictments rather than seek Justice.)

When Good Police are put at risk because Police in general are too often exonerated without examination in Officer involved killings?

I dunno... I raised my hand years ago to uphold and defend the Constitution. Nowadays, it seems that every interest group of every stripe and creed just sees it as an obstacle to rather than the bulwark for our freedoms.

Just very discouraging is all...
 

RamzFanz

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I've mentioned this several times. The distance, for one. Also, he said he was struck by Michael Brown's Right hand, yet his Right cheek was the one injured and only minorly so (I get the sides confused, but the hands and side of Officer Wilson's face didn't match). Originally, he claimed to have been struck 9 or more times. Subsequently, he said he'd been struck 2 times.

You can't expect a person who was just attacked then in pursuit, then in retreat while being charged, to get distances correct. As you probably know, the release of adrenaline creates tunnel vision and an "out of body" type of feeling. It's not a credibility issue to misjudge distances in a life or death situation. If he was turning his head away from the attack he could be hit on the opposite side of the face. I haven't seen the 9 or 2 times. I will look.

So, he's got damage on the face, but I'm still not clear HOW it happened or even IF Michael Brown did it. At trial, Officer Wilson, under oath and under cross examination would have to demonstrate EXACTLY how it happened. But... that wasn't going to happen because the DA had already decided to rule on this. Which, procedurally is fine... except, he violated the sanctity of the Grand Jury in order to find political cover and I find that disgusting and shameful. In order to do that he had to NOT confront Officer Wilson, nor confront his testimony. Now, I already said that exculpatory evidence wasn't required before the Grand Jury. I never said that it was forbidden. That part was inflammatory. Of course, the DA would have to disclose that Officer Wilson not only was an Officer, but was also on duty. Those pertain directly to how the law is applied to any possible charges. It would be crucial to discuss this in order to get the Grand Jury to return indictments. The DA would HAVE to not only discuss that he was an officer and the forensic evidence, but also the limits surrounding self-defense AND the limits of the use of deadly force by officers in the course of discharging their duties.

As a juror, in my mind, I wouldn't need exactness on anything by anybody. I know memories fail. It's unavoidable. I know perceptions will vary among witnesses. My only real concerns would be:

1) Was Wilson attacked.

2) Did Brown go for his gun OR did Wilson honestly believe he went for his gun.

3) Did Brown rush at Wilson.

I believe from what I've read so far, all of those were true and would mean self-defense so no criminal charges.


I really had no intention of getting into the minutiae of Wilson's testimony because I wasn't advocating FOR or AGAINST Officer Wilson, but rather that BECAUSE he gave conflicting accounts, at the very least, the damned DA should have thoroughly and rigorously examined HIS testimony...at least to the degree as some of the witnesses (as he did). The DA did NOT do this.

I agree. If he wasn't cross examined, and I don't know yet if he was or wasn't, that would not be correct to me. Of course the Jury was able to ask anything they wanted.

What the DA did was to amalgamate Officer Wilson's testimony to FIT the DNA evidence...to reconcile that.

That's assumption. I'm not seeing that the DA did any such thing. They very well would just match if he was being honest.

I'm sorry, but that's Officer Wilson's Attorney's job, NOT the job of the District Attorney.

Again, he has to present the self-defense evidence or why even have a grand jury. It's a crime and Wilson admitted it. Wilson doesn't have a right to an attorney at a grand jury and self-defense HAS to be established or eliminated. Who else is supposed to enter the evidence?

Now, everyone ELSE may not give one damn bit about process, but I do. Moreover, while I admit that the legal system can overdo process (it's easier for a guilty person to get a new trial due to a technicality based on trial error than an innocent man to get a new trial based on new exculpatory evidence if his/her original trial had no procedural errors and THAT, my friend, I am ALSO against and hoping changes), but in almost every case, process is critical.

Unfortunately, all too often, especially in cases with SOCIAL impact, it's procedure that's not followed to a "T"...

I agree. Like in the Zimmerman case when all parties agreed there was no basis for an indictment, they brought in a hanging prosecutor who acted without a grand jury. They usurped the process to get an outcome to please the masses knowing they couldn't win.

Officer Wilson's testimony is suspect to me. The unexamined discrepancies by the DA create a lingering doubt that should never have been there.

Fair enough.

As I've said umpteen times before, that does a disservice as much to Officer Wilson's family as it does to the Brown family (although, obviously, the Brown family is also grieving the loss of a family member. And no, I'm not going to judge anyone. Even dysfunctional families grieve. It saddens me that so many supposed Christians have not just one stone, but a sack of stones ready to pummel them with judgment rather than adhere to what Christ said to do).

And yes, I'm also not happy for the Wilson family if as Ben Watson put it, he really was just discharging his duty in a lawful manner and got caught up in all this. The DA not only didn't do him any favors, the whole department threw him under a row of buses and played just as much the victim card as anyone else in this mess.

Had the process been followed, I truly believe the outcome would have been better for everyone.

That's all I've been saying from day one.

Fair enough. Good point. I would just say that had the DA cross-examined him strongly, that would have satisfied the process for me.
 

jrry32

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I've mentioned this several times. The distance, for one. Also, he said he was struck by Michael Brown's Right hand, yet his Right cheek was the one injured and only minorly so (I get the sides confused, but the hands and side of Officer Wilson's face didn't match). Originally, he claimed to have been struck 9 or more times. Subsequently, he said he'd been struck 2 times.

So, he's got damage on the face, but I'm still not clear HOW it happened or even IF Michael Brown did it. At trial, Officer Wilson, under oath and under cross examination would have to demonstrate EXACTLY how it happened. But... that wasn't going to happen because the DA had already decided to rule on this. Which, procedurally is fine... except, he violated the sanctity of the Grand Jury in order to find political cover and I find that disgusting and shameful. In order to do that he had to NOT confront Officer Wilson, nor confront his testimony. Now, I already said that exculpatory evidence wasn't required before the Grand Jury. I never said that it was forbidden. That part was inflammatory. Of course, the DA would have to disclose that Officer Wilson not only was an Officer, but was also on duty. Those pertain directly to how the law is applied to any possible charges. It would be crucial to discuss this in order to get the Grand Jury to return indictments. The DA would HAVE to not only discuss that he was an officer and the forensic evidence, but also the limits surrounding self-defense AND the limits of the use of deadly force by officers in the course of discharging their duties.

I really had no intention of getting into the minutiae of Wilson's testimony because I wasn't advocating FOR or AGAINST Officer Wilson, but rather that BECAUSE he gave conflicting accounts, at the very least, the damned DA should have thoroughly and rigorously examined HIS testimony...at least to the degree as some of the witnesses (as he did). The DA did NOT do this.

What the DA did was to amalgamate Officer Wilson's testimony to FIT the DNA evidence...to reconcile that.

I'm sorry, but that's Officer Wilson's Attorney's job, NOT the job of the District Attorney.

Now, everyone ELSE may not give one damn bit about process, but I do. Moreover, while I admit that the legal system can overdo process (it's easier for a guilty person to get a new trial due to a technicality based on trial error than an innocent man to get a new trial based on new exculpatory evidence if his/her original trial had no procedural errors and THAT, my friend, I am ALSO against and hoping changes), but in almost every case, process is critical.

Unfortunately, all too often, especially in cases with SOCIAL impact, it's procedure that's not followed to a "T"...

Officer Wilson's testimony is suspect to me. The unexamined discrepancies by the DA create a lingering doubt that should never have been there.

As I've said umpteen times before, that does a disservice as much to Officer Wilson's family as it does to the Brown family (although, obviously, the Brown family is also grieving the loss of a family member. And no, I'm not going to judge anyone. Even dysfunctional families grieve. It saddens me that so many supposed Christians have not just one stone, but a sack of stones ready to pummel them with judgment rather than adhere to what Christ said to do).

And yes, I'm also not happy for the Wilson family if as Ben Watson put it, he really was just discharging his duty in a lawful manner and got caught up in all this. The DA not only didn't do him any favors, the whole department threw him under a row of buses and played just as much the victim card as anyone else in this mess.

Had the process been followed, I truly believe the outcome would have been better for everyone.

That's all I've been saying from day one.

I completely agree, Mack. It was clear the DA purposefully botched this case. Some of the worst lawyering I've ever seen.
 

RamzFanz

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I completely agree, Mack. It was clear the DA purposefully botched this case. Some of the worst lawyering I've ever seen.

Have you read the paper by the self-defense lawyer who explains why the evidence was introduced?
 

RamzFanz

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@Mackeyser - I read Wilson's testimony. It's fair to say they went very easy on him. The Jury did cross examine him but that's not the same. However, I didn't find a single instance that wasn't reasonable, logical, or unsupported by the evidence.

You've confused me with the contradictory testimony as he only testified once as I see. Do you have any links?
 

iced

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FWIW

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...and-Jury-Misled-by-St-Louis-DA?detail=twitter

Missouri AG Confirms Michael Brown Grand Jury Misled by St. Louis DA

Subsequent to a previous report from Lawrence O'Donnell the Missouri Attorney General has confirmed with Last Word that they instructions given the Michael Brown Grand Jury describing the Police "use of force" laws was incorrect and misleading.
Video from Program

The background of this situation is that Lawrence O'Donnell reported that after reviewing the transcripts of the Darren Wilson Grand Jury, his analyst discovered that Assistant District Attorney's working for Bob McCullough gave the Jurors an outdated copy of Missouri Lawthat all that was required for an Officer to use deadly force is their "reasonable belief" that there was a threat.

In 1985 the Supreme Court amended this law to include a "probable cause" requirement underTennessee v Garner and the Jury wasn't informed of this until 3 months later just before their deliberations, nor even at that time was the difference and relevance of this explained to them clearly.

The misleading information was given to the Grand Jury directly before Darren Wilson's testimony giving the impression that all that was required under the law for Wilson to kill Michael Brown was his belief that he was in danger, without the additional requirement ofprobable cause for such a belief.

The Missouri AG now proclaims that was wrong and the Missouri Law needs to be changed and updated to reflect the Supreme Court's ruling.

Continue over the fold to read more.



O'Donnell: The Missouri Attorney General says "The Police Use of Deadly Force Law in Missouri must be changed." in response to my question to the Attorney General he said:
"Among the problems tha Ferguson has brought to light is the need to update Missouri's use of deadly force statute. This statute is inconsistent with the Supreme Court's holding in Tennessee v. Garner. Consequently, it is important this statutue be amended by the Missouri legislature to incorporate the Garner decision to avoid confusion in the criminal justice system"

Chris Koster
Missouri Attorney General

O'Donnell: As I have stated on this program there should be no confusion in the criminal justice system because the United States Supreme Court clarified the proper, and legal, and constitutional use of deadly force by police, 29 years ago.

There are two clear possibilities here. Either the St. Louis County District Attorney's Office was aware of this conflict and deliberately attempted to give the Grand Jury a false impression of the law, only to slip in a unclear, unexplained "correction" at the last minute which would be far too weak to override the prevailing impression gained from weeks of testimony which had been reviewed through a jaundiced lens...
Or...

The St. Louis County and other DA's throughout the state have been regularly misleading juries and grand juries with the mistaken and wrong impression that probable cause is not required for law enforcement before deliberate deadly force can be deployed legally because they just don't know any better.

And worse even still, are Officers walking the streets of Missouri - or other states - also under this incorrect impression that all they need to use deadly force is to "feel threatened"?

This of course begs the question of what happens then when you get people like Rudy Giulianior Joe Scarborough or Bill O'Reilly or Ted Nugent or -pick a conservative, any conservative- telling everyone that Young Black Men are, by definition, A Threat?

I think we can see what you get from that, even when controlling for demographics young black men are about seven times more like to be killed by law enforcement than just about any other group.

Considering the fact that Darren Wilson has made public statements that he actually went through the thought process: "Can I Legally Kill This Guy?" and then in about 3.5 seconds decided for himself that he could when his judgement on what was truly legal in that situation, like that of the DA, may have been factually and constitutionally wrong - it begs yet another critical question, has this statute been updated in New York?

Could that, or a similar issue, be a factor in the decision by the New York Grand Jury not to indict Officers involved in what the NY Medical Examiner's Office called "A homicide"?

Naturally since New York's Grand Jury law's don't allow their testimony or deliberations to be revealed to the public we don't know what they were told, or what they weren't told.

What the New York Daily News Reports is this:

Under New York State law, police officers can use force to affect arrests, prevent escapes and to protect themselves and others from physical harm. New York law further provides that citizens may not physically resist. Arrests are to be challenged in court, not on the street.
...

As a practical matter — on the basis of past cases — the grand jury would likely indictonly if it found malice or some intention to hurt Mr. Garner or that a gross disregard for Mr. Garner’s well-being is what created the tragic ending during this routine arrest. Finding that the officer was careless or that the arrest was bungled will not rise to the level of a crime.

So if the office doesn't "intend" harm, they can't be charged - which essentially means they can't get away with Murder, but they still can potentially get away with Manslaughter.
It's "Ok", if they didn't really mean it and all that really requires is not getting caught bragging about it afterward, right? Sure.

Unlike the Wilson case, Officers in New York clearly didn't make the deliberate decision that the subject was "a threat" and chose to use deadly force, they were - as best we can tell from the Snuff Film we've all seen by now - just trying to make an arrest with a difficult subject and in the process violated NYPD Policy in using a choke-hold and piling onto him while ignoring the subjects repeated signs respiratory of distress.

I can't breath. I can't breath. I can't breath...But they didn't "mean" it - so, whatever.
The National Institute of Justice states that:

Police officers should use only the amount of force necessary to control an incident, effect an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm or death.
Police should also:
Ensure that those injured receive medical aid.
Ensure that the family of any injured person is notified.

So, no - not Murder, but someone was definitely slaughtered, yet no one has been held accountable for it.
Again.

What I additional found was the actual New York Statute of Police Use of Force to Effect an arrest, and the quick answer to the question of whether it reflects the Constitutional Case Law, just as Missouri's law did not, is IMO... "No!"

1. A police officer or a peace officer, in the course of effecting or
attempting to effect an arrest, or of preventing or attempting to
prevent the escape from custody, of a person whom he or she reasonably
believes
to have committed an offense, may use physical force when and
to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
effect the arrest, or to prevent the escape from custody, or in
self-defense or to defend a third person from what he or she reasonably
believes
to be the use or imminent use of physical force; except that
deadly physical force may be used for such purposes only when he or she
reasonably believes that:
(a) The offense committed by such person was:
(i) a felony or an attempt to commit a felony involving the use or
attempted use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a
person; or
(ii) kidnapping, arson, escape in the first degree, burglary in the
first degree or any attempt to commit such a crime; or
(b) The offense committed or attempted by such person was a felony and
that, in the course of resisting arrest therefor or attempting to escape
from custody, such person is armed with a firearm or deadly weapon; or
(c) Regardless of the particular offense which is the subject of the
arrest or attempted escape, the use of deadly physical force is
necessary to defend the police officer or peace officer or another
person from what the officer reasonably believes to be the use or
imminent use of deadly physical force.
IANAL, but I don't see any mention that the Officers need probable cause for their "reasonable belief" that deadly force is necessary. Would that have made a definite difference to the St. Louis or New York Grand Juries? I honestly don't know, but having the law be incorrect in two states where this has happened doesn't make me all that confident about Justice being reached fairly in Ohio [Jonathan Crawford, Tamir Rice], Utah [Darrien Hunt] or other states.
This may not be the last case - even in the last 12 months - where people feel compelled to take to the streets in protest because the police and the DA and the courts and various legislatures have grossly failed in their duty to protect all of our citizens equally.

But... and there is a big butt... the NY statute also says this.

2. The fact that a police officer or a peace officer is justified in
using deadly physical force under circumstances prescribed in paragraphs
(a) and (b) of subdivision one does not constitute justification for
reckless conduct
by such police officer or peace officer amounting to an
offense against or with respect to innocent persons whom he or she is
not seeking to arrest or retain in custody.[Having re-read that last section I realize the "reckless conduct" limitation only applies to "innocent persons...who aren't being arrested". So what happens when the reckless conduct is against people they are trying to arrest? This right here, could be the loophole Officer Pantaleo and others escaped through.]
What both of these cases, as well as others, have shown is that the Constitution we think we are governed by, and the laws that are supposed to be put in place in consistency with that Constitution - aren't being followed by our legislatures, aren't being correctly implemented by our police and aren't being enforced by our DA's and Grand Juries.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is a problem. A big problem.

2:37 PM PT: Lawrence mentioned this during the full segment and I don't want to leave it out:

This is not usually a problem as the relevant case law is often attached to the statute when it's provided to juries or grand juries. This is partly why legislatures don't constantly revise all their laws everytime the SCOTUS makes a decision, the courts and DA's are supposed to keep up to date and handle it.

Less so the Officers on the street.

The point here is that St. Louis County DA, either by accident or by design, didn't provide the case law until 6 weeks later after all the testimony and exhibits were done.

2:58 PM PT: Officer Pantaleo stated to GJ, due to some partial releases, that he was trained at the academy to use that particular choke maneuver. The first problem with that is that choke-holds were supposedly banned as part of NYPD policy after the choke-hold death ofAnthony Baez in 1994, which led to Officer Francis Livoti being prosecuted Federally - after being indicted twice then acquitted in State Court - and was ultimately sentenced to 7 years in prison. Pantaleo is only 29 years old, so since the entire time that he's been on the Force, and when he went through the Academy, the choke hold has been banned by NYPD.

The second issue is that he's doing it wrong. The point of the carotid choke hold is to restrict blood flow to the brain and render the subject unconscious by compressing the arteries, It'snot to put pressure on the windpipe which can be crushed in the process. From the video Pantaleo is putting his full weight directly on Garner's windpipe, not on his carotid arteries which are on the sides of the neck. This mistake a major reason by many PD have banned the practice for decades. What Pantaleo, and the other officers who piled on top of Garner thus further compressing his chest and helping to asphyxiate him, was a public hanging without the rope.

3:11 PM PT: Not to pile on, but Police took seven minutes to give Garner CPR after they took him down.
 

RamzFanz

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I keep reading this about the Garner case "Police took seven minutes to give Garner CPR after they took him down."

You don't administer CPR to a person that is breathing. The EMTs verified he was breathing at the scene.


That's too bad the screwed up on the Wilson case. It wouldn't have made a difference, there was obviously probable cause to believe he was going to get severely injured or killed, but it taints the process in people's minds. I don't agree that it actually DID taint the process because they were given the instruction, but still.
 

Mackeyser

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Well, considering it's a 29 year old precedent, either DA McCulloch was incompetent or he misled the Grand Jury purposefully. It's not like the Missouri AG is a flaming liberal who has it in for the Ferguson DA and it's all political.

As to whether it would have made a difference, who knows? We can't say because we don't know if the jury was close to indicting as it was or not remotely close. So we don't know if the current and proper instructions would have been enough even without McCulloch properly associating the evidence with the charges (as he should have and as he and his department does every OTHER time they appear before the Grand Jury).

What we DO know is that this process was improper.
 

snackdaddy

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So many "facts" makes me confused. All I know is a mother shouldn't have to fear for her son's life every time he robs a store.
 

RamzFanz

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So many "facts" makes me confused. All I know is a mother shouldn't have to fear for her son's life every time he robs a store.

O. M. G.

clooneydoubletake.gif
 

Stranger

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Hugh
I don't even know what to say about that case... even on tape, even with no self-defense... an officer can kill someone with no repercussions. And he did die from the choke hold... some of the defenders want to say he died later, but the term for his death is Asphyxial Arrest.
LA cops put my handicapped brother in the hospital with a choke hold. He was only trying to serve someone with a lawsuit, as he was working for a law firm at the time. But lady called the cops cause she didn't want to get served. Law firm was made up of some major power brokers, so cops almost lost their job and my bro got a settlement. But he got beat up pretty badly, and the guy has cerebral palsy. The cops also drove him around the city in the back of their car making bigoted jokes and threatening him with more "stuff".

I've also had to jump out of the way of a cop car which flew into my mom's driveway, as they somehow thought I was breaking into the home that I had been living in for 10yrs -- having to jump out of the way of a cop car is also what was reported as having happened to Brown. So, I can totally relate to the reported events.
 
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